Random thoughts after a long absence

[Drudenfusz]

I had better prove nothing. And that is what I will do. To insinuate this is some kind of requirement is rather silly IMO.

If you want that people do not ignore everything you claim you better provide evidence. Or to put at in other words, I think you are lying with your claim that the reviews have been poor. I think you are just projecting your own opinion as some kind of cosmic truth, since you are not willing to provide some source on how you came to that conclusion, I just have to assume it is just in your head.

[LordArtemis]

The meaning is apparent.

 

Ironically, you're the only one who has an issue with understanding the same words and the context in which you chose to insert them.

 

You can't possibly claim that reviews for something have "been moderate to poor" and not expect to have that claim challenged... If you don't, then I guess it that says a lot about yourself.

 

Your right. I can't possibly expect that. Asking me to provide sources is not challenging the claim. It is playing the same game we are playing now, in a different way. Arguing for the sake of argument.

 

Saying something like "Where are all of these moderate to bad reviews? All the reviews I have read have been glowing ones", or "The feedback I have seen has been overwhelmingly positive, I don't know what you have been reading"....things like that.

 

THEN I would either choose to post sources to back up my "claim" or leave it to stand on it's own merits OR LACK THEREOF.

 

I also do not think you indicating I have an "issue" makes it so. I think its more likely you indicating such serves an argument that has no merit.

 

Considering you are not forced to accept my posts, views, opinions or contentions you have a simple choice.

[LordArtemis]

If you want that people do not ignore everything you claim you better provide evidence. Or to put at in other words, I think you are lying with your claim that the reviews have been poor. I think you are just projecting your own opinion as some kind of cosmic truth, since you are not willing to provide some source on how you came to that conclusion, I just have to assume it is just in your head.

 

Ok. What I wanted was to make a post. I have fulfilled that desire. What occurs after that, including any and all opinions about my post will come as they may.

 

You are also welcome to reject this and any future post I make.

 

Accusing me of lying Drudenfusz? That seems a rather silly accusation. What exactly would I gain by direct dishonesty?

[Darth_Wicked]

Your right. I can't possibly expect that. Asking me to provide sources is not challenging the claim. It is playing the same game we are playing now, in a different way. Arguing for the sake of argument.

 

Saying something like "Where are all of these moderate to bad reviews? All the reviews I have read have been glowing ones", or "The feedback I have seen has been overwhelmingly positive, I don't know what you have been reading"....things like that.

 

THEN I would either choose to post sources to back up my "claim" or leave it to stand on it's own merits OR LACK THEREOF.

 

Your individual claim has no merit and deep down inside, you knew that already, which is why you went for the "reviews have been moderate to poor" approach.

 

I also do not think you indicating I have an "issue" makes it so. I think its more likely you indicating such serves an argument that has no merit.

 

You expect people to fully embrace whatever you claim, without the need of having your claim challenged apparently.

 

That's an issue right there.

 

Considering you are not forced to accept my posts, views, opinions or contentions you have a simple choice.

 

I am FREE however to dispute them, which is what I'm doing. Not the only one either.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Drudenfusz]

Accusing me of lying Drudenfusz? That seems a rather silly accusation. What exactly would I gain by direct dishonesty?

You can be sincere in your believe that what you say is the truth, but that doesn't mean it actually is the truth, that is what I am pointing out. People make all sorts of claims for plenty of different reasons, I cannot read minds, so I don't know what you gain by saying such things, but it seems really popular to bash on SWTOR, or you claim that your opinion is the truth because you are that unsatisfied with GSF that you want your words to have more wieght by saying that this would be a general thing and not just your personal opinion, which might just be based on expectations you had. So, for the future, state your opinions as such, and stop claiming that your opinion would be more than just your opinion.

[LordArtemis]

Unfortunately I need to correct you on a few things, since you choose to behave this way.

 

Your individual claim has no merit

 

Fair enough. An absolutely valid and justified conclusion.

 

....and deep down inside, you knew that already, which is why you went for the "reviews have been moderate to poor" approach.

 

I posted moderate to poor because that is what I have read. It was not an approach.

 

You expect people to fully embrace whatever you claim, without the need of having your claim challenged apparently.

 

I'm not sure why you would come to that conclusion. I expect people to reject everything I say, I am surprised that people rarely do so. Even when I was a blatant critic of the game.

 

Challenge is expected and welcomed. Expecting me to counter that challenge is silly at best. If I feel the challenge requires an answer, I will do so. I do not feel a challenge to my statement requires an answer....folks can read the reports and reviews themselves and draw their own conclusions.

 

I am FREE however to dispute them, which is what I'm doing. Not the only one either.

 

You have no need to justify your dispute Darth, and frankly I am surprised you would expect to have to do so. Your challenge is justified. The ONLY place you are in error is in defining the meaning of MY posts and/or expecting me to answer a challenge instead of simply accepting it.

 

It is a common error you are making. Folks sometimes have trouble grasping the idea that there are people in the world that do not require approval. I consider myself in that group...and this is not the first time I have discussed this with other folks. Some people have trouble understanding why someone would not feel the need to defend themselves.

 

But I have faith that if you reflect on it, the answer to that question should avail itself to you.

 

Especially considering you have participated in the same behavior....posted information from unknown sources you only guessed at without providing a direct source. Your post history stands in evidence.

 

....which is why this entire line of discussion is odd.

[LordArtemis]

You can be sincere in your believe that what you say is the truth, but that doesn't mean it actually is the truth, that is what I am pointing out.

 

That is an absoultely fair and accurate statement. Simply because I read them that way, does not mean I am not being unfair in my synopsis....it could have a slant certainly. Fair enough.

 

People make all sorts of claims for plenty of different reasons, I cannot read minds, so I don't know what you gain by saying such things, but it seems really popular to bash on SWTOR, or you claim that your opinion is the truth because you are that unsatisfied with GSF that you want your words to have more wieght by saying that this would be a general thing and not just your personal opinion, which might just be based on expectations you had. So, for the future, state your opinions as such, and stop claiming that your opinion would be more than just your opinion.

 

Ah, now I see your error. Check my post history if you wish to discover my motives, or lack thereof. I consider myself fair, but you can certainly make that judgement yourself.

 

And I welcome you to make that judgement and will answer any motive you may discover if needed.

 

Heh, trying to make sure I get the color right.

Edited September 9, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Darth_Wicked]

I posted moderate to poor because that is what I have read. It was not an approach. (...)

 

And again you're asked: Where?

I'm not sure why you would come to that conclusion. I expect people to reject everything I say, I am surprised that people rarely do so. Even when I was a blatant critic of the game.

 

It's not a conclusion. If it were, the "apparently" wouldn't be there... It's an hypothesis.

Challenge is expected and welcomed. Expecting me to counter that challenge is silly at best. If I feel the challenge requires an answer, I will do so. I do not feel a challenge to my statement requires an answer....folks can read the reports and reviews themselves and draw their own conclusions.

 

You have no need to justify your dispute Darth, and frankly I am surprised you would expect to have to do so. Your challenge is justified. The ONLY place you are in error is in defining the meaning of MY posts and/or expecting me to answer a challenge instead of simply accepting it.

 

Again, the meaning is apparent for many people it would seem, except you.

It is a common error you are making. Folks sometimes have trouble grasping the idea that there are people in the world that do not require approval. I consider myself in that group...and this is not the first time I have discussed this with other folks. Some people have trouble understanding why someone would not feel the need to defend themselves.

 

You're confused.

 

People asked for something to further substantiate your claim, in order to follow through on a healthy debate, something which you are - apparently - a fan of promoting, whenever you bring up your never ending list of suggestions for this game.

 

Why you have an issue presenting a simple link(!) written by someone else(!!!) - which quite frankly shouldn't take long - is quite puzzling, seeing that I doubt it would take as long as the suggestions you usually write down.

 

But then again, we both know why, don't we?

But I have faith that if you reflect on it, the answer to that question should avail itself to you.

 

Especially considering you have participated in the same behavior....posted information from unknown sources you only guessed at without providing a direct source. Your post history stands in evidence.

 

....which is why this entire line of discussion is odd.

 

Hmmmm... I can't remember ever claiming that "reviews have been moderate to poor", whenever I was actually stating my opinion for example.

 

Should I challenge that little claim of yours, while hoping you go get those links and posts or should I accept what you said as some sort of universal or cosmic truth?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[LordArtemis]

And again you're asked: Where?

 

 

It's not a conclusion. If it were, the "apparently" wouldn't be there... It's an hypothesis.

 

 

Again, the meaning is apparent for many people it would seem, except you.

 

 

You're confused.

 

People asked for something to further substantiate your claim, in order to follow through on a healthy debate, something which you are - apparently - a fan of promoting, whenever you bring up your never ending list of suggestions for this game.

 

Why you have an issue presenting a simple link(!) written by someone else(!!!) - which quite frankly shouldn't take long - is quite puzzling, seeing that I doubt it would take as long as the suggestions you usually write down.

 

But then again, we both know why, don't we?

 

 

Hmmmm... I can't remember ever claiming that "reviews have been moderate to poor", whenever I was actually stating my opinion for example.

 

Should I challenge that little claim of yours, while hoping you go get those links and posts or should I accept what you said as some sort of universal or cosmic truth?

 

Lol, I don't think the confusion sits with me Darth. I think that much is painfully obvious. Your conclusion is that it was apparent. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

 

Challenge what you wish. You certainly do not need my permission or approval. I welcome anyone to check your post history and mine and draw their own conclusions.

 

Shenanigans.

Edited September 9, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Darth_Wicked]

Do what you wish Darth. Challenge what you wish. You certainly do not need my permission or approval. I welcome anyone to check your post history and mine and draw their own conclusions.

 

Shenanigans.

 

This you mean?

(...) I also think the writing is on the wall for Strongholds. Reviews have been moderate to poor, returning players seem to follow a theme that demonstrates they are not that impressed with the design (...)

 

Most definitely, no doubt.

[LordArtemis]

This you mean?

 

 

Most definitely, no doubt.

 

No, this I mean. No doubt indeed.

Edited September 9, 2014 by LordArtemis

[ghoul_drool]

Nice discussion, I would argue that Strongholds is a HUGE succes, and I have empirical evdidence that supports my claim. I can actually prove it. To do so, one needs to observe the GTN.

 

- Decorations command high prices on the GTN. The most common of pack drops - a lowly Kolto Barrel - lists for 18000 credits. World drops even higher. Compare cosmetics for GSF listed at 1 credit.

 

- The prices for purple materials that are needed for crafting prefabs have tripled. Not just for the Trade Emporium conquest, but overall. Alusteel now fetches 5000 credits. Promethium 18000. Madalorian Iron 15000. Per unit.* This wouldn't happen if people didn't want those materials to use.

 

- The prices for crafting missions has doubled. The lowest of Underworld Trading missions now fetches 20000 credits.

 

- Every other single item that came from a Gatekeeper's pack is listed at prices that are -relatively- far too low. My conclusion is that players are actively opening these pack en masse for the decoration roll and discard the rest.

 

 

*All data for GTN prices sampled from Harbinger and Ebon Hawk servers

[LordArtemis]

Nice discussion, I would argue that Strongholds is a HUGE succes, and I have empirical evdidence that supports my claim. I can actually prove it. To do so, one needs to observe the GTN.

 

- Decorations command high prices on the GTN. The most common of pack drops - a lowly Kolto Barrel - lists for 18000 credits. World drops even higher. Compare cosmetics for GSF listed at 1 credit.

 

- The prices for purple materials that are needed for crafting prefabs have tripled. Not just for the Trade Emporium conquest, but overall. Alusteel now fetches 5000 credits. Promethium 18000. Madalorian Iron 15000. Per unit.* This wouldn't happen if people didn't want those materials to use.

 

- The prices for crafting missions has doubled. The lowest of Underworld Trading missions now fetches 20000 credits.

 

- Every other single item that came from a Gatekeeper's pack is listed at prices that are -relatively- far too low. My conclusion is that players are actively opening these pack en masse for the decoration roll and discard the rest.

 

 

*All data for GTN prices sampled from Harbinger and Ebon Hawk servers

 

Fair enough. I would not argue that it is not a success with the current population. I have certainly made it clear that the QoL improvement alone trumps any other complaints I have about the system personally.

 

My pause is only with whether or not it will retain players and increase our playerbase. I speculated before it was released (as my post history demonstrates) that I did not believe it would make a substantial difference, but hoped I was wrong (and would be very happy if I was). GSF was far more underwhelming in this one respect IMO.

 

That is the only merit I speak to. Obviously the QoL improvement, as well as the money that can be made are pretty big benefits of the feature IMO.

[Ivy_Blackrose]

1) starfighter is fun once u start getting better at it

2) housing is great but unfortunately the lack of free placement is crippling

3) no house in alderaan? it is by far the most beautiful scenery in the entire game, you definetly need a gorgeous alderaan home with a great view off its back porch and out its windows

4) love the makeb mod vendor great addition to the game to help ppl returning to gear up

5) house items you need to have more non sci-fi style house items, some people like non sci fgi too, give people variety and yes I know this is a sci-fi game

6) need a Gree and Rakata event for those of us who have been gone a long time.

7) Conquest, its great fun but we need more variety of house item rewards that are unique.

 

other than that the game has improved immensely from the last time I played it in MY OPINION

Edited September 9, 2014 by Ivy_Blackrose
cause I wanted to

[Arkerus]

Lol, I don't think the confusion sits with me Darth. I think that much is painfully obvious. Your conclusion is that it was apparent. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

 

Challenge what you wish. You certainly do not need my permission or approval. I welcome anyone to check your post history and mine and draw their own conclusions.

 

Shenanigans.

 

I agree with your opposition here. You presented an argument with no backup. Now...no one is forcing you to do so and honestly, you probably won't.

 

But, I agree with their argument that you presented something with no real backing. Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words. That's why I posted what I did, you made a claim without any real data to back it up. I couldn't tell what you were getting at. I thought some of it had been sarcastic to be honest.

 

If your perception was that way...then so be it. But I can't find any concrete proof that GSF and strongholds got poor to mediocre reviews.

 

I COULD make the argument that housing has received mediocre to positive reviews (based on a single joystiq article) but I can't really find anything being very critical of their design choices. Forum warriors here don't count. Financial results will really tell the story.

 

As for GSF, it was largely skipped over by professional reviewers. What is left is personal opinion of the forums. I love GSF but I can see how someone brand new doesn't get it. I see that with almost every game I play. New players always have a hard time.

[DSpectre]

Citation is not needed. Rejection is allowed.

 

 

 

You are saying reviews are poor-moderate. You need to back up those facts with Citation, otherwise your claim means nothing. Therefore those reviews do not exist.

 

So show us these reviews you speak of through a URL link to the page(s) where you are referring to.

 

Beyond that, your claim on GS is ignored.

 

Citation is everything!

[LordArtemis]

I agree with your opposition here. You presented an argument with no backup. Now...no one is forcing you to do so and honestly, you probably won't.

 

But, I agree with their argument that you presented something with no real backing. Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words. That's why I posted what I did, you made a claim without any real data to back it up. I couldn't tell what you were getting at. I thought some of it had been sarcastic to be honest.

 

If your perception was that way...then so be it. But I can't find any concrete proof that GSF and strongholds got poor to mediocre reviews.

 

I COULD make the argument that housing has received mediocre to positive reviews (based on a single joystiq article) but I can't really find anything being very critical of their design choices. Forum warriors here don't count. Financial results will really tell the story.

 

As for GSF, it was largely skipped over by professional reviewers. What is left is personal opinion of the forums. I love GSF but I can see how someone brand new doesn't get it. I see that with almost every game I play. New players always have a hard time.

 

Fair enough. I was speaking to Strongholds, not GSF with respect to the mediocre to poor reviews. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words.

 

What I probably should have said to be more specific would have been "the reviews I have read were mostly either simple reports of the feature or a poor review. I have read probably a dozen or so reviews and reports, and only found one that indicated that one usual SWTOR critic stated "Overall, I thought it was a pretty decent piece of content. I've been critical of SWTOR in the past but I feel this is a much better release so far"

 

Some of the comments that were less than positive (not verbatim, from memory)

"question the wisdom of using a hook system in this market"

"UI is buggy, persistent and disorganized, but this is early in the life of the feature"

"system is limiting in a way that will not likely make fans of housing happy"

"this is not the housing system you have been hoping for"

"The strongholds are a huge money sink"

"The Skypalace is practically the definition of nickel-and-diming"

 

These are not lies...these are actual comments out there from reviewers. Folks can certainly read the reviews themselves and draw their own conclusions. But I will not be drawn into a silly debate over whether or not the reviews or the reviewers themselves are legitimate, nor will I repost the links that have been posted over and over again in this forum. Folks can do the work and search them out for themselves.

 

Not to mention that since the reviews are common knowledge (you obviously mentioned one of them) I BELIEVE most folks that argue links are needed are doing so just to argue....not because they are actually unaware the mediocre to poor reviews exist.

 

Not exactly resoundingly negative comments, which is why I said poor instead of awful. But again, I should have been more specific. The reviews that are out there at present are well known, have been posted here many times, so there is no need to once again post links to every person that denies them, only to have them complain about the sites or the legitimacy of the reviewer....it is a silly game at best.

 

I have also read around 4 threads here from returning players, three were unimpressed in general with a few complaints about the system, and naturally Reddit has a few as well. One can certainly discount reviews from players if they wish, and I understand why they would do so.

 

No glowing reviews. Even GSF had a few glowing reviews. Now, its a bit early yet, so some of the major sites may not have decided to post a review piece just yet, so this could change.

 

I went back and edited the original post to make the point more clear. I should probably be careful about summarizing in this way, as some folks might find offense.

 

You are saying reviews are poor-moderate. You need to back up those facts with Citation, otherwise your claim means nothing. Therefore those reviews do not exist.

 

So show us these reviews you speak of through a URL link to the page(s) where you are referring to.

 

Beyond that, your claim on GS is ignored.

 

Citation is everything!

 

Citation is nothing. One can pretend the reviews do not exist if they wish. It can be ignored, seen as a claim if anyone wishes. There is no need to seek forum approval of what is well known as a fact, not to mention the fact that I personally do not require forum permission of any kind from the community, nor will I ever seek it.

Edited September 9, 2014 by LordArtemis

[LyraineAlei]

 

Citation is nothing. One can pretend the reviews do not exist if they wish. It can be ignored, seen as a claim if anyone wishes. There is no need to seek forum approval of what is well known as a fact, not to mention the fact that I personally do not require forum permission of any kind from the community, nor will I ever seek it.

 

Could I use that instead of providing a bibliography at the end of my college essays?

 

"Citation is nothing. All the information is there if one took a quick search."

 

Think that would go well.

 

People wanted citation to separate your opinion from fact. Opinion is subjective, fact is not. Fact can be wrong, but it is not matter of opinion.

 

I have seen several satisfied "reviews", maybe not on the forums, but in the game, people are pretty happy. Yes, more could be done to improve them, but Strongholds are a lovely credit sink, and a lovely place to sit and gather your friends in.

 

Your wording may have been a bit off, "poor" reviews? The only ones throwing a real hissy fit are SWG vets who expected to rebuilt their old homes. Others are saying things along the lines of "I like it, but it would be better if x happened."

 

That is at least as high as "mediocre". Not " poor".

[Raansu]

My only issue with strongholds is that you cant re-use your stuff thats placed in a stronghold into another stronghold. I don't really care about housing, I just use it because it loads fast so I sit in there between warzone queue pops, so while I'm there I play around with some things. I use the DK stronghold. I flew to the free nar shadaa one just to mess around and I found that I couldn't place anything down because they were all placed in DK. Kinda lame, but I get why its setup like that. I just personally don't care enough to bother getting more stuff. Even my DK house has like the bare minimum stuff that you get for free.

[discbox]

I don't like PvP, it brings out the worst in people.

 

The prejudice of PvE players against PvP are worse!

[Raansu]

The prejudice of PvE players against PvP are worse!

 

Zing!

[Darth_Wicked]

The prejudice of PvE players against PvP are worse!

 

Some players you mean, with some of those "same" players being nothing more than sad little trolls, who get fed by those same PvP players.

[Vego_Mohenjo]

The prejudice of PvE players against PvP are worse!

 

It's just been my experience that in PvP there is a lot of unsportsmanlike behaviour, such as "teabagging," inappropriate trash talk, insults, swearing, etc.

 

It's made worse when one is rendered unable to actually compete, because of imbalances in gear, powers, etc.

 

No one enjoys being cannon fodder. If I asked you to play tennis with me, then told you you were going to have to play using a ping pong paddle while wearing wellington boots, and then required you to lie on your face on the court at each service, you probably wouldn't want to play, because you would be at an insurmountable disadvantage, and it wouldn't be FUN for you.

 

In the end, that's the metric that counts. If it isn't fun, people won't want to do it.

[JMagee]

I enjoy both GSF and Housing.

 

My review is thumbs up.

 

When citing this post, please use the format

 

Troll, A (2014, September 10). Random Thoughts after a Long Absence [Online forum comment]. Message

posted to http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=763090

[Vego_Mohenjo]

I enjoy both GSF and Housing.

 

My review is thumbs up.

 

When citing this post, please use the format

 

Troll, A (2014, September 10). Random Thoughts after a Long Absence [Online forum comment]. Message

posted to http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=763090

 

I'll point out that calling someone a troll is itself trolling, and not allowed under the ToS.

 

That said, I've not been trolling, I'm providing feedback for the dev team. You're free to disagree, but being dismissive and calling me a troll is unproductive and rather insulting.

 

Try to disagree without being disagreeable.