Planetary Conquest is Dominated by LARGE Allied guilds

[Psychopyro]

There is nothing wrong with small guilds. The tight knit friendships you make in a small community can be priceless. However, you can't expect to take 5 people to a tug of war match, and expect to win against a team of 20. And you can't expect for the rules of tug of war to be changed, because you don't have enough people (by your own decision) to compete with a team that outnumbers you 4 to 1.

 

Not really a good analogy... Actually nothing RL is.... Because in RL a small, dedicated group of people with the correct skill set can take out much larger numbers. The problem is this system really does not seem to lend to that due to the time constraints of the game, and non real world factors of the game.

[Psychopyro]

This is a load of garbage.

 

I'm in a guild that's fairly large, or at least I consider it large, because we can field 2 full 16-man raid teams on Friday nights. Others may not consider that large. I mean, it's really probably only 40-50 players.

 

Anyway, looking over the conquest points my guild (currently in first place) has amassed, the vast majority - over half - have come from exactly two players.

 

That means that a "guild" of FIVE PLAYERS as interested in taking a planet as the two main point-getters in my "big" guild are would beat us handily - win the conquest running away.

 

Our guild was going that way... The top 5 usually account for over 50% of the points. It's not sustainable and it's not really worth the headache..

[branmakmuffin]

Why even bother mentioning that you placed in the top 10? So what? You spent time doing conquest for absolutely nothing. Something has to change or the same guilds are going to win week after week.

Or what will happen? People will stop participating in the conquest system and then ragequit the game? I already don't participate in it. And yet I have somehow not quit playing the game.

 

If part of the game is not appealing to someone, they have the option of simply not participating in that part of the game. Demanding that that part of the game be changed to suit them is silly.

[Prisoner]

Perhaps on your server, but the big guilds on Ebon Hawk usually have over 3 mil points before the first 24 hours has elapsed.

 

So? This is crafting week and they planned accordingly by having a ton of crafting already queue up when the Conquest started.

 

Look, I play on the Ebon Hawk, and yes, while the top three slots per planet are dominated by guilds who either have a lot of members or have a small hardcore group of super active players, it is absolutely possible to make the top ten with a medium size guild, because my guild <Saberwing> has done it now three weeks in a row - first week 4th, last week 3rd, this week 8th so far. We would have been higher last week, because we have a ton of GSF pilots in the guild, if it weren't for all the flashpoint exploiting going on.

 

We're not a zerg guild. We're not a mega guild. We're not a guild of hard core no lifers either. <Saberwing> has a core membership who has played together for almost seventeen years across multiple games. We're professionals, full time workers, people with small children and families, college students, etc... We have 483 toons in the guild (most of which are alts) maybe 40 active accounts at the moment and somewhere between 10-20 people on during prime time. We haven't done any mass recruiting since this began either, instead bringing new people in a few at a time.

 

If we can consistently place on the leader boards when often we're derping around trying to kill commanders and dying hilariously in OWPVP for no conquest points whatsoever, then it's entirely possible for other medium sized guilds who aren't hard core to do the same thing. Mostly we just play the game the way we've always played the game, and since we're a casual guild with diverse interests, the conquest system suits us well.

 

Anyway, quit worrying about the #1 spot ffs. If you aren't large or super dedicated, of course your chances of getting in are slim. The top ten though? Totally doable by a medium sized group of casual people.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Prisoner

[ryan_reynolds]

The feeling that i get from this thread is "OMG im not winning, plz BW let me win." look as far as conquests go I really dont care. Its not my thing, too much grinding. However I am from the same guild as Ocho is and that guild is about to have first place again. This guild is putting in the time to win. Everybody is particpating, unless its raid time groups are forming to run the FPS and heriocs. So with the guild focusing basically completly on this, and with being able to sustain the large numbers why should they not win. THey are putting the work in. Oh and as far as taunting and attacking. THis is what I will say. A. I have been on basically all week due to being home sick and have not seen this from my guild. B. if they are doing it, why is it a problem to make allies in this game. Nothing against the EULA or TOS so **** they want to do it then fine. They are not the first guild in this game to taunt a boss away or make allies. C. If you dont like any of this then be better. I watch a guild last week try to heal a commander while we tried to kill it as well as try to attack us, and they failed so make friends and have fun. Quit your complaining.

 

/end rant

[branmakmuffin]

The feeling that i get from this thread is "OMG im not winning, plz BW let me win."

Same here.

[DarthTHC]

Perhaps on your server, but the big guilds on Ebon Hawk usually have over 3 mil points before the first 24 hours has elapsed.

 

I play on Ebon Hawk.

 

Take a look at this cool (if slow) site: http://www.swtorconquest.com/conquestweeks/5 it shows you that your assertion that the big guilds have 3 million points on the first day on Ebon Hawk is fantasy, not reality. Only two guilds did that and they are both on Voss (crafting heavy).

 

But, yes, guilds that plan well do get off to a good start. That rather non-shocking revelation just means that guilds that intend to win a week probably should plan well.

 

Our guild was going that way... The top 5 usually account for over 50% of the points. It's not sustainable and it's not really worth the headache..

 

I doubt winning a conquest every single week is possible for any guild. Select battles that play to your guild's strengths. Use your brain in addition to your resources. If you're getting curb-stomped, back off into a resource rebuilding phase early so you have a better chance at winning next time. Rally your whole guild to participate - the "doing stuff" points have value even if they don't add up as quickly as the crafting points!

Edited September 5, 2014 by DarthTHC

[well]

So when Germany invaded Poland at the start of WW II, did Poland whine about the "bigger Guild" having an unfair advantage? No (well maybe they did, but the result was they still lost and quickly).

 

Did Germany bemoan that Russia was being unfairly helpful to the opposing faction? No, they just "dealt with it".

 

Could you imagine the horror of being placed in a WZ at 3:1 odds against? No, because the game forces a cap on the number of people per side. The thing is, you are allowed to bring 499 friends to conquest events... don't blame big guilds for coming close to that number. I'm sure you don't try to short-man other content and complain that you can't compete with full groups. This is the equivalent of saying that me and my 1 friend can't do 8 man operations but those "big groups" can do it cause they are more popular and we want our gear/titles/etc.

 

For the last couple of years I would occasionally make fun of the ads on fleet to "help me start a guild... you can leave after". What's the point of a small guild? What's the point of a big guild? Note that they are NOT the same and should not be treated the same.

 

You do know that Poland was split between the two powers. Germans from the West and Soviets from the East.

[Ocho-Quatro]

You do know that Poland was split between the two powers. Germans from the West and Soviets from the East.

 

I'm just happy that someone invoked Godwin's Law.

[well]

I'm just happy that someone invoked Godwin's Law.

 

lol I'm still trying to figure out what guilds had to do with WW2.

Edited September 5, 2014 by well

[TUXs]

I'm just happy that someone invoked Godwin's Law.

 

LOL! Great start to my day

[Ocho-Quatro]

LOL! Great start to my day

 

You have to appreciate the little things in life TUXs.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Ocho-Quatro

[ivanhedgehog]

So when Germany invaded Poland at the start of WW II, did Poland whine about the "bigger Guild" having an unfair advantage? No (well maybe they did, but the result was they still lost and quickly).

 

Did Germany bemoan that Russia was being unfairly helpful to the opposing faction? No, they just "dealt with it".

 

Could you imagine the horror of being placed in a WZ at 3:1 odds against? No, because the game forces a cap on the number of people per side. The thing is, you are allowed to bring 499 friends to conquest events... don't blame big guilds for coming close to that number. I'm sure you don't try to short-man other content and complain that you can't compete with full groups. This is the equivalent of saying that me and my 1 friend can't do 8 man operations but those "big groups" can do it cause they are more popular and we want our gear/titles/etc.

 

For the last couple of years I would occasionally make fun of the ads on fleet to "help me start a guild... you can leave after". What's the point of a small guild? What's the point of a big guild? Note that they are NOT the same and should not be treated the same.

 

the difference was, nobody could quit earth and go pay to live on a different planet. people can quit swtor and choose to spend their dollars somewhere else..bad analogy

[ivanhedgehog]

This larger guild thing made me laugh. We are a small hardcore raiding guild and will be 3/3 for wining planets at the end of the week.

 

We wondered the same at the start but so far every large guild that has come our way we have sent packing, many avoid us for that reason. On TRE the large guilds I have seen have 30-50 people online at peak time compared to our 10 to 20.

 

So far what I have seen is being organised and playing smart beats the zerg.

 

10 to 20 online is not a small guild

[Bluejayoo]

Same here.

 

I tend to agree as well.

 

For the record the two guilds on Ebon Hawk that racked up huge points at the beginning were Veritas and AOL for a Voss conquest. It was more like 1 million the first hour not 3.

 

The rumor being passed around is that they queued up all of their crafting the night before and then logged in after their guild leader started the conquest to get the reward. This 'head start' didn't require them to be a huge guild, it just required that they were aware that they could take advantage of the system like this. Many of us were not aware of that 'loop hole' in the rules but I can guarantee you every guild will be doing that with their crafting efforts from this point on.

[Jeweledleah]

10 to 20 online is not a small guild

 

so how long are we going to keep redefining what a small guild is? becasue first we were railing against "mega guilds" that are mindlessly recruiting, then when that was proven to be false as far as conquests are concerned (because guess what, people who only join your guild to coast on points, are not going to genuinely contribute, they are there to coast, so in the end, you are winning nothing). we were all talking about close knit groups of people having no chance.

 

but now even 10 to 20 is too big? really?

 

yeah, it sure does sound like "omg bioware, my guild is not winning, make it so that we win"

[scottythebod]

I tend to agree as well.

 

For the record the two guilds on Ebon Hawk that racked up huge points at the beginning were Veritas and AOL for a Voss conquest. It was more like 1 million the first hour not 3.

 

The rumor being passed around is that they queued up all of their crafting the night before and then logged in after their guild leader started the conquest to get the reward. This 'head start' didn't require them to be a huge guild, it just required that they were aware that they could take advantage of the system like this. Many of us were not aware of that 'loop hole' in the rules but I can guarantee you every guild will be doing that with their crafting efforts from this point on.

Unless they have so many mats that they can't craft them all in a week it doesn't really matter. They can get a "head start" all they want but if they run out of mats mid week then a guild that didn't get the head start will catch up by the end. Unless they have the money/mats to craft endlessly they're just choosing to use their resources at the beginning to get a lead. A guild that spread the same amount of resources slowly over the entire week will still end up with the same amount in the end.

 

Maybe I'm wrong & there are a lot of guilds that have enough mats/money to keep their crafters going practically 24/7 and the extra head start will matter, but I doubt it. More likely the only advantage they got was all the people that looked at their score on the first day & said "we can't match that we'll just give up"

[Bluejayoo]

Unless they have so many mats that they can't craft them all in a week it doesn't really matter. They can get a "head start" all they want but if they run out of mats mid week then a guild that didn't get the head start will catch up by the end.

 

Actually given that you can easily replenish your mats as the week goes on by running missions, spending scrap, etc..., the 'head start' is a HUGE advantage.

 

Most max sized guild should have a similar replenish rate, so getting what is essentially a full day head start means you are constantly a day ahead through out the one week competition.

[DawnAskham]

Unless they have so many mats that they can't craft them all in a week it doesn't really matter. They can get a "head start" all they want but if they run out of mats mid week then a guild that didn't get the head start will catch up by the end. Unless they have the money/mats to craft endlessly they're just choosing to use their resources at the beginning to get a lead. A guild that spread the same amount of resources slowly over the entire week will still end up with the same amount in the end.

 

Maybe I'm wrong & there are a lot of guilds that have enough mats/money to keep their crafters going practically 24/7 and the extra head start will matter, but I doubt it. More likely the only advantage they got was all the people that looked at their score on the first day & said "we can't match that we'll just give up"

 

It is a combination I believe.

 

It seems far more likely to me that a guild which pre-planned and pre-crafted will have also have stockpiled materials, and be in a far better position to keep crafting during the week over a guild that wasn't prepared for this week's conquest objectives.

 

At the same time, just like in real life, putting up a large lead can many times ensure a victory as the opposition folds simply because they do not believe they can overcome the lead.

 

I'm in a guild which is firmly in second place, yet the first place guild pushed out a several million point lead over the first two days.

 

And while our members are more active on the weekends, and it is possible we could catch up and overtake the lead guild, people are already slacking with the 'why bother running crap I don't care about or burning up all of my mats to still come in second'.

 

And I believe that thinking will inevitably lead to 'why bother at all' in a short amount of time for anyone but the largest guilds as players say 'f this' to running crap like Voss heroics over and over to still come up short over and over.

Edited September 5, 2014 by DawnAskham

[DarthTHC]

It is a combination I believe.

 

It seems far more likely to me that a guild which pre-planned and pre-crafted will have also have stockpiled materials, and be in a far better position to keep crafting during the week over a guild that wasn't prepared for this week's conquest objectives.

 

At the same time, just like in real life, putting up a large lead can many times ensure a victory as the opposition folds simply because they do not believe they can overcome the lead.

 

I'm in a guild which is firmly in second place, yet the first place guild pushed out a several million point lead over the first two days.

 

And while our members are more active on the weekends, and it is possible we could catch up and overtake the lead guild, people are already slacking with the 'why bother running crap I don't care about or burning up all of my mats to still come in second'.

 

And I believe that thinking will inevitably lead to 'why bother at all' in a short amount of time for anyone but the largest guilds as players say 'f this' to running crap like Voss heroics over and over to still come up short over and over.

 

I agree with most of what you wrote but especially disagree with the last paragraph.

 

I believe an alternative is that it will lead guilds to pick their battles more wisely, plan better, and execute more aggressively. Most guilds shouldn't go for first every conquest week. It doesn't give you enough time to replenish or even breathe. Guilds that are capable of winning a planet, which are those who are capable of giving the front-runners a good run for at least a few days and consistently placing in the upper half of the top 10, should plan and plot a way to win every 3-4 weeks, and pick the conquest that most closely matches their strengths to do it.

 

I'm also not so sure I buy into the "Why do stuff I don't want to do?" part of what you wrote. Conquest content seems pretty broad. There are awards and bonused awards that run the entire breadth of this game (except possibly space-on-rails). If you pick a Conquest that doesn't line up with your guild's make-up, then shame on you. If you do pick a Conquest that lines up with your guild's make-up, nobody should ever complain of doing stuff they don't want to in order to win it.

[DawnAskham]

I agree with most of what you wrote but especially disagree with the last paragraph.

 

I believe an alternative is that it will lead guilds to pick their battles more wisely, plan better, and execute more aggressively. Most guilds shouldn't go for first every conquest week. It doesn't give you enough time to replenish or even breathe. Guilds that are capable of winning a planet, which are those who are capable of giving the front-runners a good run for at least a few days and consistently placing in the upper half of the top 10, should plan and plot a way to win every 3-4 weeks, and pick the conquest that most closely matches their strengths to do it.

 

I'm also not so sure I buy into the "Why do stuff I don't want to do?" part of what you wrote. Conquest content seems pretty broad. There are awards and bonused awards that run the entire breadth of this game (except possibly space-on-rails). If you pick a Conquest that doesn't line up with your guild's make-up, then shame on you. If you do pick a Conquest that lines up with your guild's make-up, nobody should ever complain of doing stuff they don't want to in order to win it.

 

My point wasn't that there aren't objectives everyone can do each day, rather that in a medium / large guild there is little to no incentive to go out of the way to do stuff you wouldn't already be doing.

 

For example, if attacking Voss there are big bonuses for the heroics and crafting.

 

If you are sitting firmly in the middle of the top ten, why bother running Voss heroics or burning up mats when doing so won't place you in first, and ignoring the Voss heroics and crating won't drop you out of the top ten?

 

Or take Makeb with bonuses to PVP.

 

Again, if you are sitting firmly in the top ten, what incentive would there be to increase your points by doing PVP versus just doing a couple of FPs or doing a HM Operation?

 

I do agree with the idea that guilds that are close, but are just a bit smaller than the top leaderboard guilds, have an opportunity to plan ahead and try to win something every few weeks with a reasonable chance for success.

 

But back to the point of this thread.

 

The mega guilds with mega active people will walk away with most planets, large guilds will have a chance if they plan / hustle, while the medium large guilds will have little incentive to hustle as doing the minimums will easily place them in the top ten while hustling probably won't make a difference, and the smaller guilds will just get left on the side lines getting little to nothing out of the whole conquest system.

[Zharik]

Perhaps on your server, but the big guilds on Ebon Hawk usually have over 3 mil points before the first 24 hours has elapsed.

 

BS. I'm on the Ebon Hawk and in the 1st week my guild squeaked out a win by getting over 10 mil total. While we scored 3 mil the LAST day of that competition, it opened a lot slower. Ironically the ONLY guild to get 3 mil in the "1st 24 hrs" like you claim was the guild we beat trying to take that same planet again and getting some fairly stiff competition from another guild. Guess they don't want to take any chances this time around so they burned a load of crafting materials early.

[DarthTHC]

BS. I'm on the Ebon Hawk and in the 1st week my guild squeaked out a win by getting over 10 mil total. While we scored 3 mil the LAST day of that competition, it opened a lot slower. Ironically the ONLY guild to get 3 mil in the "1st 24 hrs" like you claim was the guild we beat trying to take that same planet again and getting some fairly stiff competition from another guild. Guess they don't want to take any chances this time around so they burned a load of crafting materials early.

 

There's definitely something to be said for the strategy of getting out to a huge early lead. A lot of guilds will give up and settle for an easy top 10 when that happens, and only a few guilds on the server will give you a fight. If you happen to not have one of those fighters in the same conquest as you, it becomes easy. If you do get one, it becomes really fun.

[Zharik]

At the same time, just like in real life, putting up a large lead can many times ensure a victory as the opposition folds simply because they do not believe they can overcome the lead.

 

This is SO true.

 

The 1st week we got into a strong fight which had us neck and neck with another guild most of the week. I wouldn't even want to guess how many lead changes there were total. I heard at the start of the last day people in guild chat saying that we had no chance since the other guild poured it on early to extend a lead to 400k. Even though we were at about 7 mil total at this point, they saw 400k as "impossible" to overcome. Well we did, because we knew when/how to sprint at the end of a marathon and the other guild underestimated us.

 

Since then we have had no real competition, because of the psychological advantage of scoring over 10 mil in that 1st week.

[Khevar]

Most max sized guild should have a similar replenish rate, so getting what is essentially a full day head start means you are constantly a day ahead through out the one week competition.

Pre-crafting only gives a full day head start if all of their crafters had enough materials to do 5x Invasions Forces for all of their companions.

 

Normal war supplies take 51 minutes x 5, so it's just over a 4 hour head start.

 

And let's be honest, any guild that has enough materials to head start with a ton of Invasion Forces is probably going to with WITHOUT the head start.