Trintric Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Is it so hard to believe that people can define scam differently? Merriam Webster: scam (fraud) " An act of deceiving or misrepresenting" The intent of the seller was clearly to deceive... so it is a scam, although this is a broad definition. Except there was no deceit or misrepresentation here. The GTN does not 'Hide' the price, it does not show any more or any less than the price being asked of the buyer. It even shows you in separate columns the entire price and the per item price. Lastly, you even get a little pop up box asking .. "Are you sure . blah blah?" It's about as fool-proof a method as you can get. What else should the system do? Two pop up boxes asking if you're sure? 3? 4? Maybe a pop up asking "Now are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY sure you want to buy this stuff at this price?" For the OP, take some responsibility for your mistake. And it is ... your ... mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Is it so hard to believe that people can define scam differently? No, not at all, thank you for the considered reply... I'm going by what the legal viewpoint in the US generally would be, I'm sure it varies around the world... Such word games won't generally work with a Judge, they take a dim view of people pulling out dictionaries in a court room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValeGreiger Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Is it so hard to believe that people can define scam differently? Merriam Webster: scam (fraud) " An act of deceiving or misrepresenting" The intent of the seller was clearly to deceive... so it is a scam, although this is a broad definition. also Merriam Webster: scam (fraud): " Intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right" The truth was not perverted, as the price posted was the correct sale price regardless of whether the sellers intent was 'banking' on people misreading it. Boom. Everyone is right.... Except for those saying the other side is wrong... which is basically everyone. So everyone is wrong. Except me. /Thread P.S. since no one agreed with my previous comment I'll repost: I'd really like a system where we could make a selection where all our searches automatically sorted by lowest price. It's just annoying to do it every time I search since I do it a lot. This wouldn't be too hard to implement would it? Also it would put a dent in these sellers' tomfoolery. Pretty much this. Close this thread and end the semantic arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) When the third grader argues with the teacher over the answer, that doesn't give him/her an equal voice in the conversation. In this case, the people calling it "not a scam" are the third graders... They are welcome to their opinion, however wrong it may be... nothing typed on an Internet message forum is going to change their minds. you do realize that personal attacks at people who don't share your opinion, render your arguments invalid right? if you cannot let your argument stand on its own merit without trying to insult people who disagree with you? you have NO argument. 1. you do not know the intend of the seller. you. do NOT. know. you are merely assuming. 2. you are resorting to hypotheticals, basing this scam on systems that are not even present in the game, basing it on yet another assumption that a buying would for some reason assume that the system works a certain way, even given evidence to the contrary and that selling would look for specifically buyers that meet all this criteria in order for their overcomplicated scam to work. all your reasoning comes down to "what ifs" 3. even in real life, as long as the price is obvious and present, it is NOT considered a scam. pricing something far higher than it usually sells for elsewhere is NOT a scam. it is neither punishable by law, nor is the seller obligated to refund the money. but one thing you are right about. you can't argue with people who have already decided on opinion. that said, I wouldn't mind being able to select permanent sorting setting. while it won't protect people from inattention, it would certainly be a nice little quality of life improvement. Edited August 29, 2014 by Jeweledleah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 that said, I wouldn't mind being able to select permanent sorting setting. while it won't protect people from inattention, it would certainly be a nice little quality of life improvement. Agreed... this would solve a lot of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 1. you do not know the intend of the seller. you. do NOT. know. you are merely assuming. No matter how stupid that statement is, scammers sure do love to repeat it. Intention can never be "known", it is always something that is inferred through observation. And what we can observe is that certain sellers are consistently listing commodity items (common mats) at prices well beyond what anybody would reasonably pay for them when there is no shortage of the commodity on the market. Since we are discussing small quantities of commodity items like common mats, it's reasonable to infer that the sellers actually would like somebody to buy the items (as opposed to, say, sellers "storing" or showing off an ultra-rare mount). When the same seller lists multiple small quantities of the same mat, the "storage" argument is not even worth considering. It's always possible that any one given "aberrant" listing was simply a mistake, and not a sign of intent. But when the same seller uses the same methodology over multiple listings of multiple products, the reasonable inference is that the seller is not doing this on accident. So, we have sellers intentionally listing products they wish to sell at prices no reasonable buyer would purchase in a commodity market. They are looking for unreasonable buyers. Now that in and of itself isn't necessarily scamming people. But when sellers tailor the quantities and the list prices to take advantage of weaknesses in a system (such as not displaying the fractional portion of the unit cost, confusion between how prices are represented due to differing international norms, the system lagging display encouraging double clicking, and the system sometimes not registering some clicks at all), that makes their listings intentionally deceptive, and therefore those sellers are scammers. And for those of you in denial that you are scammers, you are really worse than that. You are spammers. You are cluttering up the GTN with garbage listings that you know no reasonable person will buy just hoping for that one-in-a-million mistake. This is the same way that spam works -- you send out a bunch of emails to people knowing that most people will ignore them like the trash you are because it's free and you only need a few hits to make it profitable. So basically, the scammers defense is that they are *just* spammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 No matter how stupid that statement is, scammers sure do love to repeat it. Intention can never be "known", it is always something that is inferred through observation. And what we can observe is that certain sellers are consistently listing commodity items (common mats) at prices well beyond what anybody would reasonably pay for them when there is no shortage of the commodity on the market. Since we are discussing small quantities of commodity items like common mats, it's reasonable to infer that the sellers actually would like somebody to buy the items (as opposed to, say, sellers "storing" or showing off an ultra-rare mount). When the same seller lists multiple small quantities of the same mat, the "storage" argument is not even worth considering. It's always possible that any one given "aberrant" listing was simply a mistake, and not a sign of intent. But when the same seller uses the same methodology over multiple listings of multiple products, the reasonable inference is that the seller is not doing this on accident. So, we have sellers intentionally listing products they wish to sell at prices no reasonable buyer would purchase in a commodity market. They are looking for unreasonable buyers. Now that in and of itself isn't necessarily scamming people. But when sellers tailor the quantities and the list prices to take advantage of weaknesses in a system (such as not displaying the fractional portion of the unit cost, confusion between how prices are represented due to differing international norms, the system lagging display encouraging double clicking, and the system sometimes not registering some clicks at all), that makes their listings intentionally deceptive, and therefore those sellers are scammers. And for those of you in denial that you are scammers, you are really worse than that. You are spammers. You are cluttering up the GTN with garbage listings that you know no reasonable person will buy just hoping for that one-in-a-million mistake. This is the same way that spam works -- you send out a bunch of emails to people knowing that most people will ignore them like the trash you are because it's free and you only need a few hits to make it profitable. So basically, the scammers defense is that they are *just* spammers. Summary for everyone else: I'm paranoid about people in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulyok Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Really, ALL GTN prices should be rounded to a credit. No more scams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Summary for everyone else: I'm paranoid about people in game. OK, what is your explanation for people doing this with multiple mats on a regular basis then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 OK, what is your explanation for people doing this with multiple mats on a regular basis then? Sellers don't know how to price properly and Buyers who buy stuff like that don't pay attention. No one to blame but yourself. No scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Sellers don't know how to price properly and Buyers who buy stuff like that don't pay attention. No one to blame but yourself. No scam. Oh come on now. If this was a single occurrance I might agree with you that it was a mistake in pricing but said people keep relisting these stack of 5 mats for a ludicrous price, that coincidentally mimics the going rate as closely as possible. Does constant mispricing over weeks really seem to be the more probable explanation to you compared to people doing this in the hope that a buyer makes a mistake and buys them? I mean we already have 2 people on the first page of the thread who this happened to so obviously the chance to make a vast profit out of unaware buyers is there. Not saying that the fault doesn't lie with the buyer, but if the intent of the seller was indeed to provoke mistakes on the part of the buyers, that would make it a scam as per definition, albeit not an actionable one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Oh come on now. If this was a single occurrance I might agree with you that it was a mistake in pricing but said people keep relisting these stack of 5 mats for a ludicrous price, that coincidentally mimics the going rate as closely as possible. Does constant mispricing over weeks really seem to be the more probable explanation to you compared to people doing this in the hope that a buyer makes a mistake and buys them? I mean we already have 2 people on the first page of the thread who this happened to so obviously the chance to make a vast profit out of unaware buyers is there. Not saying that the fault doesn't lie with the buyer, but if the intent of the seller was indeed to provoke mistakes on the part of the buyers, that would make it a scam as per definition, albeit not an actionable one. But you don't know the seller's intent because the GTN is clear as Black and White. So I go back to my previous point. "I'm paranoid of people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 But you don't know the seller's intent because the GTN is clear as Black and White. So I go back to my previous point. "I'm paranoid of people." Agreed, you cannot actually know the seller's intent, but you can make an educated guess based on your observations and decide which explanation seems to be the more likely one. If the prosecution of every real world transgression was dependent upon proving an offernders intention beyond any doubt instead of reviewing evidence and coming to a conclusion, barely anyone would ever get convicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 OK, what is your explanation for people doing this with multiple mats on a regular basis then? Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity Like I said above, I would totally go for that if it was a single occurrence, but we're talking about multiple people doing this on a regular basis with multiple stacks of various mats while choosing prices that mimic the going rate as closely as possible. It's rather the opposite of stupidity that I'd attribute that to. EDIT: Since you won't deviate from the point that actually knowing the seller's intent is necessary for their behaviour to be called a scam, which I of course have no possibility of proving to you, could we at least agree that it would be a scam as per the definition IF the seller's intent WAS known and was indeed to mislead unaware buyers? Edited August 29, 2014 by Knorlac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RahaylaCora Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Sellers don't know how to price properly and Buyers who buy stuff like that don't pay attention. No one to blame but yourself. No scam. That is a lie, and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity Never forget to ask people defending scammers, "Cui bono." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strajder Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 New player here. 1.9M Right. I got my first million credits when I had several characters, out of which at least two were level 55. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 That is a lie, and you know it. No it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNahash Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) I understand the fault is mine and that was the intent of the scam... I love that the Entitled Generation is trying to change the meaning of words. "I did something stupid" has been repackaged and is now advertised as "I've been scammed". Because nothing's ever our fault. We need everyone - from governments to video game companies - to protect us and save us the trouble of watching what we do, who we trust, what we buy and most importantly actually using our brains when we do any of the aforementioned things. Pfft. Edited August 29, 2014 by TheNahash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarnestBunbury Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 This seems simply as someone wanting to get something over on another person. There are many items on the GTN placed strategically in between stacks that have 1 or 2 or 10 items at the same price as 99 so if you want to buy 3 stacks you end up getting 2 stacks of 99 and one "stack" of 2 or so. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is it's own reward. It must be an empty feeling to see that someone purchased your stack of 2 Hypercloth for 35k or receiving 2mil for a Biometric Crystal Alloy. They know it's wrong cause they wouldn't want it to happen to themselves. Just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoraan Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 It still can be confusing for some people. Here is an example. Sorted by highest Unit price: http://i.imgur.com/KN5sogr.jpg Sorted by lowest Unit price: http://i.imgur.com/fWk6Le3.jpg See, the problem is that when you put a stack of 99, you pick a price for the whole stack, and the GTN divides the price per unit. But when the result is not a whole number, it puts a dot (.) to separate the decimals. And a comma (,) to just separate the thousands. Awesome screenshots. I don't think anyone can say with a straight face, that this is not intentional and the buyer just doesn't know how to price an item. I'd say he exactly knows how to price an item. As they say, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. The screenshots also show the problem with the system not using decimals consistently. The Unit Price column should either display decimals all the time or never. And really, on a small screen the decimal point and comma don't really look much different. The whole thing reminds me of the PVP flagging through AoE which was changed. Back then people also argued that we should just stop using AoE if we don't want to hit a stealthed and flagged enemy. Bioware apparently saw that it would be better to change the behaviour of AoEs. Maybe they will decide to change the way numbers are displayed in the Price Unit column. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) Never forget to ask people defending scammers, "Cui bono." did you just accuse me of being a scammer? seriously? I don't even.. I give up. personal responsibility is apparently a lost concept. as is paying attention. and no. I don't list stuff like that. I'm far too impatient. I look at the lowest price per unit and undercut it, usually listing in smaller quantities so that it shows up as close to first page as I can manage, regardless of whether you are looking by cheapest unit cost or total price, so that I could move my stuff quickly. or would you call that a scam too? at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you did. Edited August 29, 2014 by Jeweledleah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeinChurro Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I never have enough money on me to ever make this mistake. Don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octanen Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) I simply had to jump on this thread, i gave up after reading 7+ pages on how people claim they are smart, yet they show nothing but their own stupidity and lack of awareness. I always double check prices on the GTN, to avoid things like this. All i see here is people thinking that they can get a refund and claim this and that whenever they make a error on their part and start yelling "Scam / Help" and what not. The person started this thread screwed up, and is now broke. Sure the person that created the auction might be trying to knick your hard earned cash by your simple lack of awareness and not double checking prices. But thats just all on you. Tricks like that have exsisted for as long as i remember, EQ, EQ2, SWG, WoW, GW, GW2, and i can keep on going. Simply because there are so many people that are stupid enough to jump in straight away. And when you have all alarms, bells and whistles and means to double check and compare prices, then yeah... all falls on your lap. Not BW/EA or anyone else... but your self. For now ill just enjoy reading this OP's post and laugh because... laughter is the best medicin, and here its just pure and simple fun. And yeah... wanna talk scams, you should try and play EvE then talk scams Edited August 29, 2014 by Octanen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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