Tellenn Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Ah this PvP forum: "Where logic goes to die a slow painful death in obscurity" They arent interested in pvp or they would be doing it anyway and geared. Its the same as the relics they have no intention of spending the comms on pvp gear only of deco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shevaresh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Exactly. Like people showing up and posting in a thread without reading it first. No one is saying "we don't want you pvp'ing". If you had read the rest of the sentence you'd understand that there is an "in that pve gear" at the end of it. And surely you'll be so kind as to point where exactly OP, in his thread title or original post, states this. "in that pve gear" as you claim? "Awful pve'ers are awful" doesn't refer to gear anywhere I can see, rather to people playing pve as a collective group rather than a quality of their gear. If that is YOUR statement and entry to the debate, then fair play to you. The two subsequent entries to my post does indeed seem to underline the point I was making that apperantly the PvP-community in this game(the vocal ones on this forums atleast) doesn't want PvP to be a popular niche in this game. If you want new people to join in and perhaps somewhere down the line get interested in PvP, then you have to accept the fact that new things are needed to gain their interest. Making gross over-generalisations of the majority of them simply afk'ing or not being worthy of participating in PvP becaurse they weren't already, is rather counter-productive to this goal. All that creates is a poisoneous atmosphere of "them" and "us" which showcases the PvP part of this game as something thats really not worth spending time on, instead of giving people the idea that PvP might actually be something thats fun and rewarding to partake in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridickilis Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) And surely you'll be so kind as to point where exactly OP, in his thread title or original post, states this. "in that pve gear" as you claim? "Awful pve'ers are awful" doesn't refer to gear anywhere I can see, rather to people playing pve as a collective group rather than a quality of their gear. If that is YOUR statement and entry to the debate, then fair play to you. If you want to narrowly view the one liner opening post to base all your findings on the entire pvp community rather than following the natural progression of a thread where different ideas and thoughts are expounded on, that's your business. Edited August 25, 2014 by Ridickilis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackNader Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Shev, The reality is starkly different to what you are suggesting. We've been through all this before with relics and now we have decorations. These players have absolutely no interest in continuing to PvP. They are there only for the rewards which are obtainable without any form of real participation. That is the issue. If active participation was required in obtaining these rewards, like they are in every other aspect of the game, there would be no issue. There "needs" to be a contributory component. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaelrog Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 a) better late then never b) actually regular warzones are pretty much for exactly that, just there are no ranked warzones and arenas stink. b) correction, there used to be ranked warzones, but the forum trolls whined until Bioware took them out. Not suprising to see the new forum trolls whining because of the lack thereof... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Firstly, more people PvPing is a good thing...even if they s*ck. The AFK stuff is pretty rare from what I've seen, but I play on PvP servers so maybe things are different there. However, the OP has identified a problem with the Planetary Conquest system. The problem isn't with PvErs, per se, but with how the Planetary Conquest system awards Guild points, or whatever. My understanding of the planetary conquest system is that guilds can run unlimited WZs for points whether they are a PvE or PvP Guild. This is a problem because PvE guilds cannot run an unlimited number of FPs, Heroics or other carebear stuff for conquest points. As I understand it, PvE guilds don't even get awarded conquest points for running Ops, which to me is pretty stupid. So, once again, the real problem isn't with the players. It's with the shortsighted design of the planetary conquest system by BW and how it rewards Guilds for completing content. Fix that and I'm pretty sure you will fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMagee Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Firstly, more people PvPing is a good thing...even if they s*ck. The AFK stuff is pretty rare from what I've seen, but I play on PvP servers so maybe things are different there. However, the OP has identified a problem with the Planetary Conquest system. The problem isn't with PvErs, per se, but with how the Planetary Conquest system awards Guild points, or whatever. My understanding of the planetary conquest system is that guilds can run unlimited WZs for points whether they are a PvE or PvP Guild. This is a problem because PvE guilds cannot run an unlimited number of FPs, Heroics or other carebear stuff for conquest points. As I understand it, PvE guilds don't even get awarded conquest points for running Ops, which to me is pretty stupid. So, once again, the real problem isn't with the players. It's with the shortsighted design of the planetary conquest system by BW and how it rewards Guilds for completing content. Fix that and I'm pretty sure you will fix the problem. Yea, this seems to be the big disconnect on the early roll-out of conquest points. I do both, although I would say I'm a better PvE'ers than PvP'er, currently. I queue PvP because it's a nice change of pace and because getting better at the game is getting better at the game. Regardless if you're up against another player or an NPC. That being said, during the conquest week (which I admit I didn't really go out of my way to work the point system, which is clear) I ran enough WZs to finish the weekly and 6 days of dailies (probably ~20WZ total) and I was awarded over 9k in points from PvP. I also ran NiM DF/EC/EV and HM DP/DF/SV/TFB (mainly for decorations) and at the end of that, all of those operations, total, awarded zero conquest points. The issue with conquest points, right now, is that in order to be successful, it dictates how you have to play the game. Edited August 25, 2014 by JMagee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridickilis Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Firstly, more people PvPing is a good thing...even if they s*ck. The AFK stuff is pretty rare from what I've seen, but I play on PvP servers so maybe things are different there. They're not really AFK (they may as well be though) they just blow up too fast. I've seen it on both ToFN and PoT5. Getting 3-4 of them on one team is a guaranteed loss. Not because they're bad or suck at the game but because they can't stay alive long enough to do anything, which in turn hurts the rest of us. Say you and I are defending in a 2 vs 3. You'd like me to stay alive as long as possible so you can take them out one at a time (assuming they're going for me first). So even if I died, the hope is I stayed up long enough for you to take out 1-2 of them then clean up the trash after I'm dead with life to spare. If I'm in 180 gear I'm going to be dead in a couple of globals, in turn all three of them should easily dispatch you (pvp gear or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shevaresh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Shev, The reality is starkly different to what you are suggesting. We've been through all this before with relics and now we have decorations. These players have absolutely no interest in continuing to PvP. They are there only for the rewards which are obtainable without any form of real participation. That is the issue. If active participation was required in obtaining these rewards, like they are in every other aspect of the game, there would be no issue. There "needs" to be a contributory component. Must be awesome to be able to both predict the future aswell as have such keen insights into other peoples motivations for doing things. You really must tell me where you learned those abillities. All jokes aside, the ranked pvp-scene in this game requires a marked active contribution from the player into gearing and learning ones class, or you simply get your butt handed to you. Aswell as giving out no rewards without "real" participation. How exactly is the ranked pvp part of this game thriving? Besides the relics and Conquest can't be compared really, as the Conquest point is contineously given and the relics simply have a definite end-goal. In short, if you're only interested in pvp'ing to get relics then you don't need to do anymore than a set number of warzones, whereas the reward from Conquest is something you can collect week after week after week, with the marked risk of eventually being exposed to the contaminating "pvp-bug" and end up being interested in it afterall. And people can change just as their motivations can change. Even "these people" to whom you are refering could end up changing their views on PvP if the right incentive is found. So far it seems that decorations and conquest points have been a great way to entice new people to pvp and while some of these new people surely aren't good at it (yet) and keeps "noob'ing it", I have yet to see any significant influx of afk'ers compared to how it was beforehand as you claim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stringray Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 There is some satisfaction to killing a 40k sorc in 4 seconds on my 33k sorc. Let em come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackNader Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Must be awesome to be able to both predict the future aswell as have such keen insights into other peoples motivations for doing things. You really must tell me where you learned those abillities. Hypocrite. That's EXACTLY what your post was only you decided we were all a pack of morons with fail logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shevaresh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Firstly, more people PvPing is a good thing...even if they s*ck. The AFK stuff is pretty rare from what I've seen, but I play on PvP servers so maybe things are different there. However, the OP has identified a problem with the Planetary Conquest system. The problem isn't with PvErs, per se, but with how the Planetary Conquest system awards Guild points, or whatever. My understanding of the planetary conquest system is that guilds can run unlimited WZs for points whether they are a PvE or PvP Guild. This is a problem because PvE guilds cannot run an unlimited number of FPs, Heroics or other carebear stuff for conquest points. As I understand it, PvE guilds don't even get awarded conquest points for running Ops, which to me is pretty stupid. So, once again, the real problem isn't with the players. It's with the shortsighted design of the planetary conquest system by BW and how it rewards Guilds for completing content. Fix that and I'm pretty sure you will fix the problem. While it is true that you can grind conquest points as much as you like through PvP, whereas you can only get points once a day per group-content type (1 hm 55/1hm 50/ 1 tactical and so on (and you do get points for operations aswell)), the relative time consumptions and point difference between these two ways of getting points, probably won't make it any more viable a way to grind points fast. Second, the amount of Conquest point you can grind is capped for each week per toon, which means it isn't really any advantage being a PvP or PvE focused guild, rather simply having more players (or simply having allot of players with loads of alts playing constantly) is what determines a guilds chances of winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Op here! They're not really AFK (they may as well be though) they just blow up too fast. I've seen it on both ToFN and PoT5. Getting 3-4 of them on one team is a guaranteed loss. Not because they're bad or suck at the game but because they can't stay alive long enough to do anything, which in turn hurts the rest of us. Exactly this. I'm not against new players, but 70-80% of these "new" 55 level characters? Oh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shevaresh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hypocrite. That's EXACTLY what your post was only you decided we were all a pack of morons with fail logic. I'll give you that using jokes as a means of communicating on internet forums can be a foolhardy undertaking, as they are all too often either misinterpreted or simply blown out of proportion by over-interpretation. So if what you took out of my original post was simply that I wanted to imply that everybody that posts here are "morons with fail logic", rather than simply making a jokingly remark about the contradictory nature of these forums, that now that a way to make PvP popular has shown itself by means of conquest/decorations (a.k.a. alternative motivation), first thing people seemingly do here is rush to find reasons to return PvP to "status quo" of being unpopular again. If that is the case, then I can understand why you are upset. To present the point of the previous quote in an unjokingly manner: I merely wished to point out that you where presenting your argument about the motivations of "these people" as if it were a matter of fact that could never change, aswell as this new influx of people ultimately resulting in failure and any claim of the contrary being "starkly different from reality". A point which I strongly disagree with. But granted, it should have been presented clearly rather than through joke for the sake of clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridickilis Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) I merely wished to point out that you where presenting your argument about the motivations of "these people" as if it were a matter of fact that could never change, aswell as this new influx of people ultimately resulting in failure and any claim of the contrary being "starkly different from reality". A point which I strongly disagree with. But granted, it should have been presented clearly rather than through joke for the sake of clarity. I'll give you this and a little helpful advise in the form of whispers/tells can go a long way if the person receiving the advise doesn't take it as an assault on his manhood (as it seems is usually the case). It does get old when you try and tell people that they shouldn't wear 180 gear because of bolster and they respond with "Shut the hell up" or "don't tell me how to play". Eventually it gets tiring and find that simply leaving the WZ or going AFK yourself is an easier option for the sake of one's sanity. I mean I don't see the difficulty in carrying a second set of gear in your inventory, that's really what this boils down to. When the queue pops throw it on. 14 slots (minus 2 if the pvp relics are still BiS) isn't a lot of space in an 80 item inventory. Edited August 25, 2014 by Ridickilis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackNader Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Shev, Your post was flat wrong. It's still wrong. PvPers want "quality" PvP, not quantity. I don't want warzones filled up with decoration farmers and AFKers any more than PvEers want their Operations and flashpoints filled up with trolls in lvl 50 greens. The difference is PvEers have this little thing called "VOTE TO KICK" which makes short work of such players. PvPers are being trolled with no such recourse. Edited August 25, 2014 by JackNader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TezMoney Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) While it is true that you can grind conquest points as much as you like through PvP, whereas you can only get points once a day per group-content type (1 hm 55/1hm 50/ 1 tactical and so on (and you do get points for operations aswell)), the relative time consumptions and point difference between these two ways of getting points, probably won't make it any more viable a way to grind points fast. Second, the amount of Conquest point you can grind is capped for each week per toon, which means it isn't really any advantage being a PvP or PvE focused guild, rather simply having more players (or simply having allot of players with loads of alts playing constantly) is what determines a guilds chances of winning. The amount of conquest point isn't capped. But you can gain additional personal rewards by using multiple toons. Any quest that is a one-timer locks across you legacy so the advantage to the guild for using multiple toons is being able to do multiple pve/pvp weekly's and daily heroic quests. Currently the best way to grind points is crafting, assuming you have enough mats of course. The gist of your post is correct, I just wanted to clarify a few things. Conquest is certainly incentivising guilds to get into pvp and have more players/geared alts, but it's up to the individual players to afk or go in w/ greens in WZ's. To those complaining about gear or learning pvp at end game. I did both those things when I started pvp'ing, and that was before bolster or recruit gear. I got thrashed for a solid week, before I started getting anywhere, and I for one am glad PVP is a lot more accessible now, and makes it more likely these PVE'ers will feel they can at least participate in the match. Also I know plenty of strictly pvp players who all they do is afk, or are so bad they might as well be, on my server. This isn't a dev issue, it's a community issue. Edited August 25, 2014 by TezMoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 This isn't a dev issue, it's a community issue. Well, for me 25-26k hp warzone heroes with active bolster is a devs issue. Not sure about 30k tanks and 40k sorcs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordHartigan Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Well I'd think most had spent years doing pvp in other games wow, daoc, war. Learning to pvp shouldnt be done in endgame pvp warzones. Perhaps that is why there is ranked and unranked PvP. I don't PvP much. Yes, conquest now gives me an excuse to do a bit more. And I have to agree with the person who said they just can't understand PvP'ers. Another thing; you all drop the WZ whenever you see you're going to lose? That is just dumb. You get comms either way and your comms over time is probably less always dropping the wz your losing trying to get extra comms from wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tellenn Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Perhaps that is why there is ranked and unranked PvP. I don't PvP much. Yes, conquest now gives me an excuse to do a bit more. And I have to agree with the person who said they just can't understand PvP'ers. Another thing; you all drop the WZ whenever you see you're going to lose? That is just dumb. You get comms either way and your comms over time is probably less always dropping the wz your losing trying to get extra comms from wins. You dont pvp for comms Edited August 25, 2014 by Tellenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shevaresh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I'll give you this and a little helpful advise in the form of whispers/tells can go a long way if the person receiving the advise doesn't take it as an assault on his manhood (as it seems is usually the case). It does get old when you try and tell people that they shouldn't wear 180 gear because of bolster and they respond with "Shut the hell up" or "don't tell me how to play". Eventually it gets tiring and find that simply leaving the WZ or going AFK yourself is an easier option for the sake of one's sanity. I mean I don't see the difficulty in carrying a second set of gear in your inventory, that's really what this boils down to. When the queue pops throw it on. 14 slots (minus 2 if the pvp relics are still BiS) isn't a lot of space in an 80 item inventory. It's a sound bit of advice. And I agree that people responding in the manner you described it, indeed does take a toll of enjoyment out of one. As a raidleader of many years and in different MMOs I'm definately not inexperienced when it comes to people reacting poorly to even sound advice, so I do sympatise with your experience on that point. What I've found helpful in that regard is simply to remember that we're often biased towards remembering the a..holes poor manners, rather than the ordinary peoples behaviors (whether we're talking PvE or PvP content). So our feelings of a game and/or part of a game having grown a worse social experience, can usually be attributed to us remembering the one a..hole amongst a crowd of decent people trying to have fun. And I also agree that carrying a second gearset is not difficult. I firmly believe the majority of players new to PvP'ing will probably realise this eventually, as so many people have before them. I just don't think it's realistic to expect people to learn this "overnight" or learn exactly how bolster works in regards to what gear is good to use, if you do not have a full pvp-set already. People will need time (and motivation) to learn these things. So in short (and unjokingly): Have patience and try to help these new people (and ignore the a...holes). More people playing will hopefully eventually lead to more competition, even in ranked, as these people learns to become good at pvp'ing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalpakun Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 PVP is practically dead now. I never had anything against those with PVE gear joining to gain experience and get PVP gear. But lately it's been horriable. PVE ******* join and either do nothing just wating for the wz to complete or even worse mess each and every tactic possible. BW please do something about it. Either remove decorations completely from PVP or make it so that none are earned if you loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Either remove decorations completely from PVP or make it so that none are earned if you loose. Heh, new warzone debuf "you can't buy the decorations with these kind of gear" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotorCityMan Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 ....(trolling other players).. Would be better if Bioware removed people that trolled other players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Would be better if Bioware removed people that trolled other players. Like a 55lvl dps with 25.7k hp/all buffs? Agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts