Dear Bioware....from a Progression raider

[Joran-Koon]

Just got rejected from a NiM progression team today for the sole reason that Jugg DPS is unviable. Apparently even with the removal of Nightmare Power.

Did they at least give you a try out?

[Bradypan]

Did they at least give you a try out?

 

Nope. The GM was going to let me join based on a parse and a willingness to learn everything needed and show up on time, but his officers were against it. Right now I think they're looking for a mara or sin, but I suppose I should expect it for an 8m group.

[veSev]

Nope. The GM was going to let me join based on a parse and a willingness to learn everything needed and show up on time, but his officers were against it. Right now I think they're looking for a mara or sin, but I suppose I should expect it for an 8m group.

 

That sucks man. I am sorry to hear that. Sadly, the juggernaut or guardian dps is just not up to the point of carrying a group even if we are leading the raid dps board. Most groups that didnt clear it pre nerf, especially 8m groups, have been stackinggroup comps purely for the phase 2 dps check from thestreams I've been watching lately. This will continue til 3.0 or they alter the dps check, which i have a feeling they will do before 3.0 because of the limited number of groups that have cleared it overall. I dont think we will see a point of 25 or more completely unique guilds clear palace as we did with fortress which means your class will play a more pivitol role on whether a boss can be clearedor not.

[Vodamin]

I am sorry, but on which NiM boss dps guardians are not viable, except maybe for the council?

Also we have a taunt, which is really handy on some bosses.

And in focus we just shine on Corruptor Zero and Draxus.

 

edit: Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that our dps is fine compared to the other classes, I am just curious why a progressing group wouldnt want a good dps guardian.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Vodamin

[GrandLordMenace]

I am sorry, but on which NiM boss dps guardians are not viable, except maybe for the council?

Also we have a taunt, which is really handy on some bosses.

And in focus we just shine on Corruptor Zero and Draxus.

 

Focus Sentinel is infinitely better than Focus Guardian (Twin Saber throw has infinite targets, cauterize is a very strong DoT, and the 4pc benefits all damage including smash and dispatch).

 

Both of the other AC's with taunts have far higher DPS (Balance Shadow and Assault VG) as well as higher mobility. For every guardian you bring into a NiM anything there are 20 balance shadows and assault VGs.

Edited October 1, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[GrandLordMenace]

As I see it the problem has been up until very recently BioWare's balancing has all be reactionary over-buffs making whoever was buffed last your new dps overlords. They have lacked an overarching design philosophy on how to balance the specs against one another.

 

This has led to really baffling results, like Scrapper the Scoundrel's burst spec being better than its Dirty Fighting sustained. Its meant Sages can deal comparable if not more dps at 30m than we can at 4m.

 

Frankly for the sustained specs at least I'd argue to balance them with 4m at the top, 10m slight behind, and 30m behind that. As a result I'd place Watchman/Anni and Vig/Veng at the top then work the other predominately 10m classes behind based on their characteristics and limitations.

 

The 4m range requires the most amount of uptime and giving BioWare's track record with encounter design by far the most susceptible to mechanics and incoming damage. Is it ever a wonder why no serious raid group will take more than 2 melee max in NiM content given the encounter design, where as 3 ranged are seen as no problem even preferred?

 

Now yes I think a eventual retooling of Focused/Enrage Defense would be necessary for the sake of PvP but if I were doing it that's where I would start.

 

Focused defense doesn't need to be retooled, it needs to be REVERTED.

 

Go back to the pre buff and pre nerf version, the one that had a 45 second cd with a 3% heal every 1 second for 10 seconds (based on damage taken.) remove the resource cost. Guardian Tanks can get a speed boost on Focused Defense. (Guardians are starting to get the short end of the stick tanking wise, thankfully we have good utility

[Vodamin]

Focus Sentinel is infinitely better than Focus Guardian (Twin Saber throw has infinite targets, cauterize is a very strong DoT, and the 4pc benefits all damage including smash and dispatch).

 

Both of the other AC's with taunts have far higher DPS (Balance Shadow and Assault VG) as well as higher mobility. For every guardian you bring into a NiM anything there are 20 balance shadows and assault VGs.

 

What is the average sentinel dps in focus spec on these bosses?

[GrandLordMenace]

What is the average sentinel dps in focus spec on these bosses?

 

I'm not sure TBH but I do know a Focus Sentinel that did around 5.2k + on grobby, if I can find his parse when TorParse returns I will.

 

Also Focus Sentinels have a top end SINGLE TARGET DPS of 3.86k ish (Without all 186 gear).

 

Focus Guardians are topping out at around 3550. (All 186 gear minus mainhand and a few other pieces, essentially around the same gear)

 

And that's just the single target end of things.

Edited October 1, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[Vodamin]

Yeah well few things Id like to see changed.

 

First we do not have a proper 4 pieces set. Which is ridiculous.

 

2nd - the master strike being a core ability in our vigilance spec makes it really not mobile. We are forced to root ourselves for 2,8 seconds every 12 seconds or so. What can be done? I dont know - either decrease the channeling time for master strike, or allow us to use it while moving.

 

3rd - Dispatch on sub-30% targets. It is just not viable. Either remove its focus cost when used on a target with less than 30% health, or give us another finisher, that ACTUALLY makes sense using in our rotation.

[GrandLordMenace]

Yeah well few things Id like to see changed.

 

First we do not have a proper 4 pieces set. Which is ridiculous.

 

2nd - the master strike being a core ability in our vigilance spec makes it really not mobile. We are forced to root ourselves for 2,8 seconds every 12 seconds or so. What can be done? I dont know - either decrease the channeling time for master strike, or allow us to use it while moving.

 

3rd - Dispatch on sub-30% targets. It is just not viable. Either remove its focus cost when used on a target with less than 30% health, or give us another finisher, that ACTUALLY makes sense using in our rotation.

 

The Master Strike issue is confounding. We use it once every 10.5 seconds which makes us highly immobile, and while it NORMALLY wouldn't be an issue, our DPS isn't high to begin with.

 

Here is my way of fixing Vig.

 

1: Make it so that if we cannot use Master Strike as often as we normally do, we still do decent damage. Meaning that Master Strike needs to be important, but without it we don't hit like wet noodles.

 

2: Find a way to make Master Strike easier to apply.

 

I personally think that the Rotation needs to be resymmetricalized and that our execute needs to be real. My current list of fixes are:

 

Plasma and Overhead on a 9 second CD with 9 second DoTs (MAINTAIN THE SAME DAMAGE). Plasma brand is now a 4 focus cost.

 

INCREASE NON PLASMA BRAND DOT DAMAGE BY A LARGE AMOUNT.

 

Keening doesn't allow dispatch to be used at 30+% health anymore, but instead makes our Master Strike channel in 1.5 seconds. Same proc chances as before, BUT combat focus has a 100% chance to also trigger Keening OFF THE RATE LIMIT (This would be our offensive CD).

 

Restore autocrit dispatch (This would be used at sub 30% only so would not be supremely OP, much like OG vigilance.) The way it would work would be much like pre 2.0 Vigilance, IE: Force Rush is now a rolling buff. It grants 60% critical Chance to Blade Storm and Dispatch.

 

Focused Defense is returned to it's 45 second CD, 3 % heal on damage taken, and 10 second duration.

Edited October 1, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[Vodamin]

Good ideas, they will definitely make vigilance way more engaging and viable.

[CaptainLunch]

Just some more words.

 

Shien Form: Damage over time abilities have a % chance to allow the use of riposte without defending an ability and reduces its focus cost by 2. (I personally prefer some RNG in rotations, I'm weird)

 

Stasis Mastery: changed to a baseline Guardian ability. (yeah that would be nice and op in pvp, but hey why not say it?)

 

Force Rush: Consuming 2 stacks of force rush gives the Guardian 100% crit on the next # periodic damaging abilities.

 

Focused Defense: Changed to; heals the guardian for a moderate amount over 5 seconds. 30-45 second cd.

 

Vigilance: In addition to its current effect; activating Combat Focus grants the Guardian 100% armor pen for the next 6 seconds.

 

Nothing too well thought out here, only some more ideas to talk about.

Edited October 1, 2014 by CaptainLunch
changing a 5 to a 6

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Just some more words.

 

Shien Form: Damage over time abilities have a % chance to allow the use of riposte without defending an ability and reduces its focus cost by 2. (I personally prefer some RNG in rotations, I'm weird)

 

Not a bad idea! Would be some free damage and would be pretty cool to work with.

 

Stasis Mastery: changed to a baseline Guardian ability. (yeah that would be nice and op in pvp, but hey why not say it?)

 

I like this idea, and for Guardians you could return Focus back to it's original state which would be cool.

 

Force Rush: Consuming 2 stacks of force rush gives the Guardian 100% crit on the next # periodic damaging abilities.

 

How about this? Rush Boost: When 2 Stacks of Force Rush are consumed Your next Plasma Brand or Overhead Slash Dot effect will have a 50%/100% chance to Auto Crit on all ticks.

 

Focused Defense: Changed to; heals the guardian for a moderate amount over 5 seconds. 30-45 second cd.

 

Eh, i like Focused Defence as-is.

 

Vigilance: In addition to its current effect; activating Combat Focus grants the Guardian 100% armor pen for the next 6 seconds.

 

I would say, give them 10% Crit rating on all attacks for 10 seconds like with Explosive Fuel.

 

Nothing too well thought out here, only some more ideas to talk about.

 

Vigilance is a good tree idea, a Hybrid DoT/Burst spec. But it doesnt do either job well enough. A few fixes will make this idea perfect.

 

1. Make Master Strike/Ravage deal consistient damage in each tick like Flamethrower/Pulse Cannon.

 

2. Give 30% Surge on Master Strike and possibly Dispatch?

 

3. boost our move speed to 20% on Shien Form for more mobility.

[Joran-Koon]

To the posts a page ago, We are viable in any and all content and if you're good enough do just fine. Groups just run into too many jug/guardians that can't deal the damage. It's like anything competitive, if you're good, you have no problem competing.

 

We cannot decrease the amount of time it takes to channel Master strike. Melee dps, at it's core, requires planning. You need to be 3-4 GCDs ahead in your mind and plan how you are going to move about. That includes where and how you use MS. Like we all know, some fights do not afford you that time to channel and in those fights we have a tougher time. This, like we said from the beginning, can be fixed by buffing our dot damage so that should we need to forego a MS in the interest of staying alive, we aren't as severely penalized for it.

 

I do like Fyttov's idea of giving something to combat focus and essentially make it a OCD. And someone else said a bit ago as well, If BW is going to add new talents for 3.0, They should be passive. We have enough buttons to push and a passive enhancement to our spec would benefit us greatly.

 

Lastly, Taking the focus cost away from dispatch sub30% would be great as it would give us an actual execute, however I fear that may be a little OP with the amount of damage it does currently. I mean I would take a nerf to dispatch so that I had an actual execution as long as that nerf was balanced by substantial dot damage. If we do that, Just make sure the damage we do in execute is actually more than it would be if we didn't change a thing.

[holmeskywalkr]

oh the lure of the exploit to strong....who are you running with holm? Did any other Guard/Jugg get Deposer on your side of the globe?

 

Sorry for the delay of answer man I was f2p for ten days. I'm running with a guild on french "pve" serv and no there's no other G/J deposer i'm afraid you're the one.

[GrandLordMenace]

Sorry for the delay of answer man I was f2p for ten days. I'm running with a guild on french "pve" serv and no there's no other G/J deposer i'm afraid you're the one.

 

I heard Tenebras and someone else got it, but Kal'izo is prolly the only one I definitively know is a Deposer.

[Luckygunslinger]

I heard Tenebras and someone else got it, but Kal'izo is prolly the only one I definitively know is a Deposer.

 

Tebebras, Kal'izo and apparently someone on the RE got it. There are 3 Deposer Jugg/Guardians that I know of.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Luckygunslinger

[veSev]

Hey everyone,

 

I am glad to see the discussion going on as of late. Sorry for not doing a cumulative post in thelast few weeks, but i will put one together as soon as i get moved in and settle to my new place. Until then, keep the ideas rolling and the discussion focused on 3.0 since its unlikely to see anything prior. And while the majority of us are DPS, I'd like to get every spec on the table for discussion.

[GrandLordMenace]

To the posts a page ago, We are viable in any and all content and if you're good enough do just fine. Groups just run into too many jug/guardians that can't deal the damage. It's like anything competitive, if you're good, you have no problem competing.

 

We cannot decrease the amount of time it takes to channel Master strike. Melee dps, at it's core, requires planning. You need to be 3-4 GCDs ahead in your mind and plan how you are going to move about. That includes where and how you use MS. Like we all know, some fights do not afford you that time to channel and in those fights we have a tougher time. This, like we said from the beginning, can be fixed by buffing our dot damage so that should we need to forego a MS in the interest of staying alive, we aren't as severely penalized for it.

 

I do like Fyttov's idea of giving something to combat focus and essentially make it a OCD. And someone else said a bit ago as well, If BW is going to add new talents for 3.0, They should be passive. We have enough buttons to push and a passive enhancement to our spec would benefit us greatly.

 

Lastly, Taking the focus cost away from dispatch sub30% would be great as it would give us an actual execute, however I fear that may be a little OP with the amount of damage it does currently. I mean I would take a nerf to dispatch so that I had an actual execution as long as that nerf was balanced by substantial dot damage. If we do that, Just make sure the damage we do in execute is actually more than it would be if we didn't change a thing.

 

Kal'izo me still likey autocrit Dispatch

[veSev]

Cor those that dont know, 3.0 was announced today. With this comes some interesting infornation that makes the majority of our discussion void until we see itin action. I am referencing the aboloshing of the skill trees for diciplines. Sadly, we only have a picture of the PTs dicipline tree at this time, so hopefully they announce PTS soon and we can continue the discussion.

[GrandLordMenace]

Cor those that dont know, 3.0 was announced today. With this comes some interesting infornation that makes the majority of our discussion void until we see itin action. I am referencing the aboloshing of the skill trees for diciplines. Sadly, we only have a picture of the PTs dicipline tree at this time, so hopefully they announce PTS soon and we can continue the discussion.

 

Agree. I'll be on the PTS as Rydarus, Grandlordmenace, or Rykilus depending on what's available.

[veSev]

Agree. I'll be on the PTS as Rydarus, Grandlordmenace, or Rykilus depending on what's available.

 

Yep, ill be testing on vezev and vesev because i play nothing else lol. Anyone heard a PTS date yet?

[GrandLordMenace]

No but I anticipate Soon .

 

Hopefully talents from the various trees can be brought into play in our spec.

[veSev]

No but I anticipate Soon .

 

Hopefully talents from the various trees can be brought into play in our spec.

 

Incoming AOE taunt bubble for all trees lol. Something i mentioned earlier.

[Joran-Koon]

At the very least, we know we can come together as a community and hash out some damn good ideas