Dear Bioware....from a Progression raider

[veSev]

Increasing the burn damage from Keening from 9% to 30% is a 150dps increase, which would put your top parse of 4100 at 4250. This would put us right up there with other mdps specs IMO. We have by far the best target switching so I don't think parsing a little lower on single target would be unfair. The reason I prefer over other buffs like 30% Blade Storm surge (which is also a 150dps increase) is that we are already OP in pvp, and that would only make things worse. I understand the point you were making in regards to not judging the spec by the tippy top parse, but we need to compare our best to other specs best.

 

Also I don't see how you can change our reliance on Master Strike without completely changing the spec. This is what make Vigilance/Vengeance challenging in fights and I'd rather not see them make big changes to it. I would however be in favour of making all 3 ticks equal. For the times you can't get the third tick, losing 50% of the damage is crazy.

 

I think we are both saying the same thing in different ways. And while your correct in our ability to swap targets without seeing a dip in dps as opposed to say a Assault Vanguard or Watchman Sentinel due to having the reapply stacking DoTs, but the fact that we have to swap with a 3 second channel occurring every 10+ secs makes is so we loose a lot of dps in transition if our timing is off. If we increase the DoTs, either by what you mentioned or what I have previously, this would resolve some of that conflict making us less reliant on that final tick of MS. I personally enjoy the play-style as it is now, but I feel that in a competitive raiding group this reliance causes break downs on dps checks.

 

And I kind of disagree on the parsing perspective. While yes, comparing top parses enables us a better means of judging one class to another at the top end of the spectrum, but doesn't say much for the average parses when say a Watchmen Sentinels variability is within 150 dps or an Assault Vanguard in DM gear can hit 4300 nearly every time on parse. Compare this to the average parse of a Gunslinger or Guardian, we simply have a farther reaching variability between our top parses and averages. Our reliance on RNG critical hits is what screws us in hitting dps checks. Going back to your point, if we increased the DoT damage than this is no longer an issue.

 

A conal saber throw would be another way to take it but less cc friendly for tanks (though honestly who cares). Building off that idea, it could be have a column of effect instead of a cone, and the cooldown of the ability is reduced per enemy hit (like the barbarian's ancient spear rune from pre RoS diablo 3). There's a lot of interesting ways it could be implemented, it's really just about changing saber throw from the clunky opportunistic rage generator into a more prominent ability in the guardians toolkit.

 

I would wager that saber throw was originally a jedi knight ability baseline and I *think* dispatch used to be a melee ability with a different animation. I remember early gameplay vids of black talon where the sith warrior was finishing off enemies with an ability called "impale". For one reason or another it ended up as a 10m ability, which would explain why the devs chose to change it to use the saber throw animation. So we now have 2 abilities that are essentially the same thing from a flavour perspective.

 

Who CCs nowadays? lol I understand the point, but speaking generally back when I was main tanking it always seemed that Sentinels in PuGs would be the first to pull a group and Twin Saber Throw only made things worse. But your right, they need to do something with saber throw to make it more viable for tanks and incorporate its decreased range into the dps trees if they dont alter the animation as I mentioned. Here is my thinking for a change to Saber Throw. Remove Twin Saber Throw, make Saber Throw a general Knight ability, make it a colum effect. Add into the tree expansion in 3.0 for Vigilance and Focus that is generates 3 focus on use. Thoughts?

 

Just FYI, Impale for Juggernaut's is the Guardian's Overhead Slash ability.

[Joran-Koon]

I remember early gameplay vids of black talon where the sith warrior was finishing off enemies with an ability called "impale".

lol smile a day right?

 

Ves you're right man, the average parse is laughable and on checks like styrak (council) im praying the entire time that I have a crit or two. We've already said a DoT increase is a viable solution and I still agree with that. This would continue to make us more OP in PvP however. The only thing I can think of to offset this would be to make the new dot cleansible. Two heavy hitting DoTs, a root on Leap (that can be used again after a push) and a one way ticket to all three MS ticks and a Godly DCD that gives us two lives. And that's not including the other 3 DCDs lol.

 

If you built minimum saber throw into the tree in Vig (and something high threat into def. tree for the same move to make it worth while:rolleyes:) you could make the two piece set "30% increase to the DoT applied by Overhead Slash". That would make our set bonus do what other bonuses do which is increase damage and not fundamentally change the rotation like how it does now.

 

^This would also be a PvE set bonus (so we may have to make it the 4 piece and change the 2 piece to MS love) that way PvPers wouldn't see the benefits of it. That might sound unfair for those of us who want moar power! but like i said above, we have to be realistic.

[Marb]

lol smile a day right?

 

Just quoting the vid, this is back before they even talked about advanced classes or skill trees (before impale/overhead slash existed). This is probably what turned out to be dispatch/vicious throw in the live game:

Edited September 10, 2014 by Marb

[GrandLordMenace]

lol smile a day right?

 

Ves you're right man, the average parse is laughable and on checks like styrak (council) im praying the entire time that I have a crit or two. We've already said a DoT increase is a viable solution and I still agree with that. This would continue to make us more OP in PvP however. The only thing I can think of to offset this would be to make the new dot cleansible. Two heavy hitting DoTs, a root on Leap (that can be used again after a push) and a one way ticket to all three MS ticks and a Godly DCD that gives us two lives. And that's not including the other 3 DCDs lol.

 

If you built minimum saber throw into the tree in Vig (and something high threat into def. tree for the same move to make it worth while:rolleyes:) you could make the two piece set "30% increase to the DoT applied by Overhead Slash". That would make our set bonus do what other bonuses do which is increase damage and not fundamentally change the rotation like how it does now.

 

^This would also be a PvE set bonus (so we may have to make it the 4 piece and change the 2 piece to MS love) that way PvPers wouldn't see the benefits of it. That might sound unfair for those of us who want moar power! but like i said above, we have to be realistic.

 

Agree. Vigilance average parses are nutty. Right now, my average parse is a flat 3700 with a height of 3850 and a low of 3600s. It's nowhere near as bad as the old days, I'll give them that, and it would be fine if all the other classes weren't getting frickin 100% RNG free rotations like us + a **** ton of crit talents. Before, it was either "crit talents" but with RNG based rotations (Combat) OR RNG free rotations but without a whole lot of autocrit talents. Well right now, bioware has basically said, "SCREW DAT"

[veSev]

Agree. Vigilance average parses are nutty. Right now, my average parse is a flat 3700 with a height of 3850 and a low of 3600s. It's nowhere near as bad as the old days, I'll give them that, and it would be fine if all the other classes weren't getting frickin 100% RNG free rotations like us + a **** ton of crit talents. Before, it was either "crit talents" but with RNG based rotations (Combat) OR RNG free rotations but without a whole lot of autocrit talents. Well right now, bioware has basically said, "SCREW DAT"

 

Here is something even stranger with Guardians and crit, and sadly Torparse was busted when I did this; so either you can take my word or not. I was messing around with crit a few weeks back because it seems like nearly every class runs 2 pieces or more of crit in BiS 186s, so I was curious. The moment my crit % broke 25%, after this discovery I swapped around mods/crystals/enhancements to the point I was at 25.02%, my dps dropped 100 or more every parse. In comparison to other classes and stat distribution, we feel sort of broken to the point that our balance of crit to power is basically nothing more than a placebo effect. For one of us, not crit works; the next, 2 enhancements. It is beyond random the crit rate we each run. The reason I think Vanguards and Shadows right now destroy us is they have more control over the stat distribution than Guardians do. From my understanding, we are so reliant on power to maintain our dps that any large drop of power hurts us significantly. Sure, I could run 280+ crit and guarantee a higher crit rate, but as I mentioned above it seemed to do more harm than good.

 

Just quoting the vid, this is back before they even talked about advanced classes or skill trees (before impale/overhead slash existed). This is probably what turned out to be dispatch/vicious throw in the live game:

 

Is that an Alpha/beta build? I never played Beta, so I am assuming. I like that UI a hell of a lot more than the current one in game lol. Except the map, I am not a fan of the grid pattern. But that is interesting, it looks as it the Impale had a similar animation to the 2nd strike of MS but with one hand.

Edited September 10, 2014 by veSev

[Joran-Koon]

Just quoting the vid, this is back before they even talked about advanced classes or skill trees (before impale/overhead slash existed). This is probably what turned out to be dispatch/vicious throw in the live game:

That's some retro stuff right there lol.

 

Ya dude, I've played with Crit as well and I noticed something similar to yourself. I see us as a sustained dps class (provided we can stand still lol) and I personally am trying to do away with crit completely. I know Vesev and a few others have a sweet spot they like but I gear for raids and I think bringing up the base power is more beneficial then a % of crit. I won't get into that as this isn't what the threads about not to mention the fact that it's gotten to the point in the DR curve that it's become personal preference. However, I will say that we do need some type of burst move so we aren't relying on the crit chance to make or break a check.

 

I did say a few pages back that stance-tying Enure to give a power increase would be nice. This would give us an actual OCD and still allow us the ability to switch stances mid fight and use it as a DCD should things go sideways for a second.

[GrandLordMenace]

Here is something even stranger with Guardians and crit, and sadly Torparse was busted when I did this; so either you can take my word or not. I was messing around with crit a few weeks back because it seems like nearly every class runs 2 pieces or more of crit in BiS 186s, so I was curious. The moment my crit % broke 25%, after this discovery I swapped around mods/crystals/enhancements to the point I was at 25.02%, my dps dropped 100 or more every parse. In comparison to other classes and stat distribution, we feel sort of broken to the point that our balance of crit to power is basically nothing more than a placebo effect. For one of us, not crit works; the next, 2 enhancements. It is beyond random the crit rate we each run. The reason I think Vanguards and Shadows right now destroy us is they have more control over the stat distribution than Guardians do. From my understanding, we are so reliant on power to maintain our dps that any large drop of power hurts us significantly. Sure, I could run 280+ crit and guarantee a higher crit rate, but as I mentioned above it seemed to do more harm than good.

 

 

 

Is that an Alpha/beta build? I never played Beta, so I am assuming. I like that UI a hell of a lot more than the current one in game lol. Except the map, I am not a fan of the grid pattern. But that is interesting, it looks as it the Impale had a similar animation to the 2nd strike of MS but with one hand.

 

I think it was a pax demo, it is probably some of the first game footage ever released.

 

The UI was generally hated though, they changed it BEFORE beta based on fan feedback.

[Luckygunslinger]

Old Impale looks nice. As time passes I'm hating Overhead Slash. It feels like a gimpy cauterize in look. Went I went back to Vengeance on my Jugg tank for Forged Alliances it was just amazing. The one thing I like out of everything for Vigilance in comparison to Vengeance is Plasma Brand setting the target on fire. Edited September 11, 2014 by Luckygunslinger

[veSev]

Old Impale looks nice. As time passes I'm hating Overhead Slash. It feels like a gimpy cauterize in look. Went I went back to Vengeance on my Jugg tank for Forged Alliances it was just amazing. The one thing I like out of everything for Vigilance in comparison to Vengeance is Plasma Brand setting the target on fire.

 

I've always felt, from an animation stand point, that Guardians feel smoother and Juggernauts just look better. No idea if that's just a personal preference or affects dps in any way. Wouldn't it be interesting to find out there was a definite dps different due to animations between the 2 of them; similar to the Sorc/Sage Shock/Project back before it was fixed.

[Joran-Koon]

See I feel the juggs feel smoother. Might be server lag but my guardian looks like he's hesitating or something before he uses blade storm.

 

Gaurdian jump > Jugg jump

Plasma brnad > Impale

How guardians run and hold lightsaber < How juggs run and hold lightsaber

The mutated jenkins scream of the guardians < The confident snicker of the juggs (on zen strike)

^ I can't tell if my dude is dying or having a good time

 

In staying true to this thread, I request BW tone us screamers down a bit.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Joran-Koon

[Luckygunslinger]

See I feel the juggs feel smoother. Might be server lag but my guardian looks like he's hesitating or something before he uses blade storm.

Gaurdian jump > Jugg jump

Plasma brnad > Impale

How guardians run and hold lightsaber < How juggs run and hold lightsaber

The mutated jenkins scream of the guardians < The confident snicker of the juggs (on zen strike)

^ I can't tell if my dude is dying or having a good time

 

In staying true to this thread, I request BW tone us screamers down a bit.

 

I think it's because the guardian has ramp up in the animations. Bladestorm has you draw your blade back and slash, Sundering is this carry back, strike and grip the hilt, Master Strike even has the run animation which honestly feels longer. The Jugg feels like it is just saying "I'm going to cut you to pieces." Guardian is like "I will be graceful like an Orobird as I strike you."

 

Also, as for Zen Strike, David Hayter voices the Knight so it sounds like Solid Snake, so I can tollerate it with Metal Gear Solid fangasms.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Luckygunslinger

[holmeskywalkr]

We talked about +15% dots on targets under 30% HP, maybe add another thing like, maybe 15% on Overhead slash why not..

 

Btw we do absolutely need 30% surge on blade storm, seems legit...

 

ps: my guild got Deposer (without me) the day before the nerf, by exploiting shadow tank anyway (no swap tanks lol), still no down for me, last raid night I took only two lights tentacles out of 15 p2, im getting kinda sick of not downing these basterds..

Edited September 24, 2014 by holmeskywalkr

[ARockLobzta]

There seems to be quite a few of solid arguments made here and for that reason: BUMP.

 

Now for my argument for increased DPS. Vengeance/Vigilance already suffers from a severe lack of AOE damage. Therefore, an increase in shatter's damage or having shatter stack seems very fair. If you are going to limit our AOE dps, then it seems logical to further increase our single target dps, or reward us for staying on one target. My suggestion for increased AOE damage is to have shatter hit up to two nearby targets within 5 meters for 50% less damage. The percentage can be played around with, but the idea I believe is solid.

Edited September 25, 2014 by ARockLobzta

[Joran-Koon]

ps: my guild got Deposer (without me) the day before the nerf, by exploiting shadow tank anyway (no swap tanks lol), still no down for me, last raid night I took only two lights tentacles out of 15 p2, im getting kinda sick of not downing these basterds..

oh the lure of the exploit to strong....who are you running with holm? Did any other Guard/Jugg get Deposer on your side of the globe?

 

Now for my argument for increased DPS. Vengeance/Vigilance already suffers from a severe lack of AOE damage. Therefore, an increase in shatter's damage or having shatter stack seems very fair. If you are going to limit our AOE dps, then it seems logical to further increase our single target dps, or reward us for staying on one target. My suggestion for increased AOE damage is to have shatter hit up to two nearby targets within 5 meters for 50% less damage. The percentage can be played around with, but the idea I believe is solid.

 

they limit our AoE cause it isn't made for that lol. I mean, I'm no doctor, but i could have sworn vig/veng was our single target spec and focus was our AoE. Best to keep them separate. I can do a mean AoE burst fluff if i need to. I did so on the caly adds tonight (left phase1) and I walked out of that phase top of board while doing interrupts. In a single target spec, that's damn good when sorcs and mandos are in there with me.

 

Not to mention there are only a few fights that AoE heavy specs work well for and those fights are manageable to say the very least. Having a 5 meter range on your idea helps in draxus, grob, CZ, and bestia. Bestia is the only one of those 4 that isn't cruise control. The ones in question are the final bosses, namely council. "lack of AoE" ain't helping us out at all in there. Its also true that melee classes, due to their lagging travel time, often get slotted to burn a particular target, not several.

 

We need a little more mobility and a smaller penalty on missing a MS/ravage. Solution = bigger dot damage.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Joran-Koon

[ARockLobzta]

oh the lure of the exploit to strong....who are you running with holm? Did any other Guard/Jugg get Deposer on your side of the globe?

 

 

 

they limit our AoE cause it isn't made for that lol. I mean, I'm no doctor, but i could have sworn vig/veng was our single target spec and focus was our AoE. Best to keep them separate. I can do a mean AoE burst fluff if i need to. I did so on the caly adds tonight (left phase1) and I walked out of that phase top of board while doing interrupts. In a single target spec, that's damn good when sorcs and mandos are in there with me.

 

Not to mention there are only a few fights that AoE heavy specs work well for and those fights are manageable to say the very least. Having a 5 meter range on your idea helps in draxus, grob, CZ, and bestia. Bestia is the only one of those 4 that isn't cruise control. The ones in question are the final bosses, namely council. "lack of AoE" ain't helping us out at all in there. Its also true that melee classes, due to their lagging travel time, often get slotted to burn a particular target, not several.

 

We need a little more mobility and a smaller penalty on missing a MS/ravage. Solution = bigger dot damage.

 

 

Your argument would be valid a few months ago, however Smash spec is essentially single target now as well. The crit only applies to current target as well as the bonus damage. Based on that fact, why not then give some AOE love to vengeance. What I proposed was a 30% increase to our dot damage, as well as splash damage to shatter. The AOE effect would have no damage increase on single target fights, but in the case of PvP and ad fights, it could be helpful without making the ability OP.

[veSev]

Your argument would be valid a few months ago, however Smash spec is essentially single target now as well. The crit only applies to current target as well as the bonus damage. Based on that fact, why not then give some AOE love to vengeance. What I proposed was a 30% increase to our dot damage, as well as splash damage to shatter. The AOE effect would have no damage increase on single target fights, but in the case of PvP and ad fights, it could be helpful without making the ability OP.

 

I believe that change was environment based. I typically see the surge and crit bonuses while using it for draxus and cz. And personally that change feels far to close to the tanks Guardian Slash.

[Joran-Koon]

I didn't say that Focus was in a good place lol, i was just asserting that if we got any AoE buff it should be in that spec.

[veSev]

I didn't say that Focus was in a good place lol, i was just asserting that if we got any AoE buff it should be in that spec.

 

Although I am not the biggest fan of including other specs unique abilities to another, what if they made blade storm hit multiple targets in focus? Maybe like 50% of single target damage. Thoughts?

[GrandLordMenace]

Although I am not the biggest fan of including other specs unique abilities to another, what if they made blade storm hit multiple targets in focus? Maybe like 50% of single target damage. Thoughts?

Focus Change would be simple: Make cyclone slash reduce CD on sweep. Bam. We have a great sustained AOE spec.

 

As for DPS increase, it can go a few ways.

 

A: Shorten channel on master strike to 1.5 seconds (Op for PVP due to limited counters but relatively fine for PVE.

 

B: Shorten the CD on Plasma Brand to 9 seconds as it was pre 2.0, but CONDENSE the DoT to 9 seconds as well (Same Damage, just faster). In addition, reduce the focus cost of plasma brand by 1 focus. Highly effective in PVE, moderately effective in PVP (Very few fights in PVP last a prolonged amount of time, our burst isn't actually affected significantly because all the abilities do the same damage, just more often.)

 

C: Add an offensive CD that improves burst significantly. This can be done by making DoTs autocrit and buffing them significantly while they are under the sway of said CD, etc, OR even make next X ability autocrit (Dispatch maybe? )

 

D: Make it so that if your armor debuff is up on the target, your DoT damage is increased by 20%.

 

E: Revert to Pre 2.0 Vigilance with Autocrit Dispatch and the rolling buff on Blade Storm, but keep our current Zen Strike system. Also keep Plasma Brand at a 12 second CD.

Buff DoT damage to compensate for lost keening dispatches. Nerf focused defense to 5 stacks only to compensate for high burst damage and give Defense tree a talent that increases the stack number to 10. Focus gets a highly reduced CD on Focused Defense. What this would allow is for Dispatch to make up our lost DPS and give us some mobility when execute hits.

 

My current favorite ideas are E and B. I'm a huge fan of pre 2.0 Vig as a spec TBH.

Edited September 26, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[Luckygunslinger]

We could make Dispatch grant Zen Strike. Dispatch off Keening is already free and grants one focus due to Shien refund. Now if Dispatch granted Zen Strike, we could theoretically have an actual execute phase. What this would mean is you could, pre-30%, have a more frequent generation of Zen Strike, getting one additional stack every 20 seconds. This in turn could, depending on your rotation if you have a stack of Zen Strike already generated whilst Master Striking, Allow you to proc immediately by using Dispatch. This in turn could mean more frequent/back to back Master Strikes.

 

On top of this, it would grant an Execute Phase meaning we could flat out go between Dispatch and Overhead Slash to generate Zen Strike and in turn have two high powered abilities being frequently used and due to the refund on focus would mean we're not draining resource coupled with Keening proccing in the 30% and below would mean back to back disptach, proccing Master Strike. By in turn perhaps neglecting Plasma Brand in the Execute, you'll have more Focus to work with, leaning off of relying on DoT's and relying on the raw damage of Overhead Slash and Dispatch as well as Bladestorm.

 

This how ever would mean less mobility and possible instability in the execute trying to juggle Overhead Slash and Dispatches when Keening rolls in. It's just a thought though.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Luckygunslinger

[GrandLordMenace]

Bump to the top.

[veSev]

Bump to the top.

 

What he said. Ive seen a lot of new names on the forums lately, and id like to see more input going into 3.0 from everyone.

[Bradypan]

Just got rejected from a NiM progression team today for the sole reason that Jugg DPS is unviable. Apparently even with the removal of Nightmare Power.

[GrandLordMenace]

DPS checks are the same as before. With the crazy buffing of other classes that makes our original buffs look miniscule in comparison, coupled with a non synergy with our class' inherent design and the design of the current Ops fights, yeahhhhh....

[ArenCordial]

DPS checks are the same as before. With the crazy buffing of other classes that makes our original buffs look miniscule in comparison, coupled with a non synergy with our class' inherent design and the design of the current Ops fights, yeahhhhh....

 

As I see it the problem has been up until very recently BioWare's balancing has all be reactionary over-buffs making whoever was buffed last your new dps overlords. They have lacked an overarching design philosophy on how to balance the specs against one another.

 

This has led to really baffling results, like Scrapper the Scoundrel's burst spec being better than its Dirty Fighting sustained. Its meant Sages can deal comparable if not more dps at 30m than we can at 4m.

 

Frankly for the sustained specs at least I'd argue to balance them with 4m at the top, 10m slight behind, and 30m behind that. As a result I'd place Watchman/Anni and Vig/Veng at the top then work the other predominately 10m classes behind based on their characteristics and limitations.

 

The 4m range requires the most amount of uptime and giving BioWare's track record with encounter design by far the most susceptible to mechanics and incoming damage. Is it ever a wonder why no serious raid group will take more than 2 melee max in NiM content given the encounter design, where as 3 ranged are seen as no problem even preferred?

 

Now yes I think a eventual retooling of Focused/Enrage Defense would be necessary for the sake of PvP but if I were doing it that's where I would start.

Edited September 30, 2014 by ArenCordial