Dear Bioware....from a Progression raider

[holmeskywalkr]

Thank you too, pretty sure vesev made that thread to get what the hell playing mdps in ops answers

[veSev]

Even for Focus guardians the master strike bonus is better than the blade storm one. The blade storm one in general is a meh bonus.

 

Your probably right. The last time I had the 4 piece was in Arkanian gear because I was still in a social guild with little knowledge of the class. Played since launch, but never really took steps to become better til I was in a guild that enabled me to. So I dont have any data to prove one way or another for Focus.

 

melee dps in raids is rough right now, ill work my *** off in some fights only to be out dps'd by a guy i out dps by 200-500 on nefra. the current raids are so anti-melee and its getting old. if movement is the only mechanic you can think of you might wanna replace some staff members...

 

ive leveled a merc and a sniper because im getting sick of melee in the current raids.

 

Not all, I mean Vanguard/PTs are amazing for most fights. I haven't seen another class that can pull 3600+ on council with the ease that the Vanguards can. I should say that I haven't seen a Shadow/Assassin stream on Council, so not sure if they are comparable or worse off in that fight.

 

Thank you too, pretty sure vesev made that thread to get what the hell playing mdps in ops answers

 

Exactly, I merely would like an explanation for them overlooking the one DPS class, to my knowledge, that has not downed Council. I know plenty of Guardian/Jugg tanks have, but no DPS has. Even a response of "we are looking into it" would at least give me some hope.

Edited August 21, 2014 by veSev

[Mr_Fuzzle]

This may be true, but I was more speaking to stealing it for the Vindicator set bonus. And does a +8% to MS really benefit to your class as a whole? When the CD is 25 secs? This is actually a question, for a have little experience with Sentinels.

 

The Master Strike bonus as a whole benefits the entire class much more so than a Blade Storm bonus would. Combat is more reliant on Blade Storm than Master Strike, but Master Strike is still around 13ish % of the damage dealt, Watchman does not use Blade Storm at all and Focus Sentinels get more damage from Master Strike than Blade Storm (essentially the same as Focus Guardian, just far easier to build stacks for Force Sweep).

 

One thing I have to say is that having a globally accessible reduced range on Saber Throw would upset the tank balance in favor of Guardians due to the extra Fcous generation. The management of Focus would become somewhat trivial.

[veSev]

One thing I have to say is that having a globally accessible reduced range on Saber Throw would upset the tank balance in favor of Guardians due to the extra Fcous generation. The management of Focus would become somewhat trivial.

 

I would think this is something they can add into the 3rd tier from the top in Vigilance where the ability has a 50/100% chance to place a armor debuff on the target with saber throw. Just incorporate range as well with the 2 points. But you are right, if they added this globally for Guardian/Juggs than it would be a bit OP focus generation for tanks.

[Gnimish]

Okay another idea. Idk if op or not enough I leave that to mathematically gifted posters. Change 4 pc set bonus to

8% increase to melee damage

Or 8% increase to force damage would help with scream and dots, and also I believe smash? For a little more aoe umph.

 

Idk just a thought I had

[ArenCordial]

Okay another idea. Idk if op or not enough I leave that to mathematically gifted posters. Change 4 pc set bonus to

8% increase to melee damage

Or 8% increase to force damage would help with scream and dots, and also I believe smash? For a little more aoe umph.

 

Idk just a thought I had

 

While that would close the dps gap from us being at the bottom to close to the top, it however would be overpowered compared to the bonuses provided by other set pieces.

[Joran-Koon]

Glad to see more of the top Guardian/Juggernaut raiders getting involved. Sorry I miss quoted there Joran-Koon about just myself and Across, but I hope any Guardian/Juggernaut DPS pulling Council gets Deposer. If not, Bioware needs to rethink what they have accomplished with class balancing.

Sorry boys, may have messed up our case. Found out tonight that it is indeed possible for a Guardian Dps to get Deposer. Still not great for numbers though. Dots being buffed would help in reach phase as sometimes all you can get in is a hit or two and if plasma brand isn't up its hard to keep up time on anything else.

 

I honestly think Enure should turn into an offensive CD in dps stance should bioware continue to make burst phase heavy ops.

 

It is nice to see everyone's input and i'm on board with a lot of whats been said. Holm's points are bang on. An AoE reduction is almost essential nowadays. and Vesev i liked your idea of just adding the minimum throw into the vigilance tree. That dosn't "OP" guardian tanks but it solves a problem of ours. couple that with a reworked set bonus we'll be sitting in better spot.

Say a 2 piece is % increase to MS and 4 is a % increase to dots on targets under 30%.

 

I was also talking to Fytov and he had the idea of incorporating Riposte more often in dps. Say like have overhead slash proc it or something. It being off the gcd would up our apm and throw a nice little 3K present in the mix here and there.

 

Love the ideas.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Joran-Koon

[veSev]

Sorry boys, may have messed up our case. Found out tonight that it is indeed possible for a Guardian Dps to get Deposer.

 

That is great man! Glad to see one of us did it. And grats to Intrepid as a whole.

[Joran-Koon]

That is great man! Glad to see one of us did it. And grats to Intrepid as a whole.

 

Thanks man. It's not easy but the guardian dps community is full of strong players and I have no doubt that I'll not be alone in this.

 

EDIT: I thought of some more.

 

Nerfing the guardian root on MS and replacing that talent spot with an AoE reduction option. Then leveling all three ticks of MS to the same. In PvP this would bring us down a bit but we could still get in 2 ticks of damage if someone's moving away from us. Rooting MS - PB - Rooting MS all the while being healed to full with a DCD off the GCD? I love my class but even I'm big enough to say that we are slightly lopsided in that area.

 

Another cool idea for some more "group utility" would be do something cool with our armor debuff. like a skill/ability that, when activated, increased the percentage (from normal) of armor penetration for a small time duration. Make it only usable on one target and when the target dies, the effect ends. Could be like a guardian version of inspo.

^ That is a little out of the box I know but maybe it could come in a major expansion.

 

Lastly, as it's been said so many times already in this thread, easy way out is to just buff our dots. Specifically OS and BS. Bring us inline with other melee classes.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Joran-Koon

[holmeskywalkr]

Hello again m'8s, dont dream too much for 3 MS ticks the same dont forget it's a jedi knight ability I dont think they can redesign it just for our pretty eyes

 

Im not sure about AOE reduction, do we really need this in ops?

 

We do need a buff under 30%, offensive cd and better dots that for sure...

Edited August 23, 2014 by holmeskywalkr

[veSev]

Im not sure about AOE reduction, do we really need this in ops?

 

Couldnt find the log but I'll explain some. We ran Hateful Entity the other night after DF NiM for ***** and giggles, and after 3 kills I was looking at my DTPS. It was significantly higher than both Vanguards and the 2 Sentinels in the group. Being that nearly every boss in current tier has some sort of raid wide AOE ability, giving us a 30% AOE reduction would make us more viable in Ops from a healing stand point.

[holmeskywalkr]

Didnt you just slack in red AOE ?

[GrandLordMenace]

Couldnt find the log but I'll explain some. We ran Hateful Entity the other night after DF NiM for ***** and giggles, and after 3 kills I was looking at my DTPS. It was significantly higher than both Vanguards and the 2 Sentinels in the group. Being that nearly every boss in current tier has some sort of raid wide AOE ability, giving us a 30% AOE reduction would make us more viable in Ops from a healing stand point.

 

Also AOE DR is still significant in PVP, though not as much as it was when Rage was still around. Still being the only melee without AOE DR access is... retarded.

[CaptainLunch]

Why not throw my 2 cents in here

 

The issues have been well fleshed out here by guardians much better and more experienced than myself, and I have so far really liked the suggestions tossed out about Enure becoming an ocd, AoE dmg reduction, and having all three ticks of MS hit the same.

 

Because of the current 3 types of dps in this game (AoE / high ramp up, high dps / low ramp up, low dps) Vigilance falls into its own category of, mid ramp up low/mid dps. That would be awesome if none ever got to respec, example: if a commando didn’t get to choose between gunny or and assault, but that’s not how things work. We either need to get more dps, or we need to swap between targets more effectively.

 

If something like throwing riposte was thrown into the rotation, we would increase our single target, low ramp up dps. Now, if we wanted to buff our single target, high ramp up dps, putting something like Force Suppression stacks onto riposte or the first tick of MS would be awsome .

 

Now, if a change to dps doesn’t happen, a change to uptime on bosses/adds has to happen.

 

I’ve liked the suggestions to change MS ticks so they all hit the same, (and I think that would actually increase sustained dps a little too) but I don’t think it goes far enough. My suggestion would be remove the cool down of force leap. Uptime, end of story. TBH, if this change was made some fine toning would be required with possibly removing the root and/or minimum range to keep things fair with pvp, but something has to be done to allow guardians to compensate for having the lowest dps, with a generally punishing dps loss when you break your rotation.

[veSev]

If something like throwing riposte was thrown into the rotation, we would increase our single target, low ramp up dps. Now, if we wanted to buff our single target, high ramp up dps, putting something like Force Suppression stacks onto riposte or the first tick of MS would be awsome .

 

I like the idea of adding Riposte into the rotation. I personally use it for dailies and such since it only becomes active after defecting an attack. However, I never see it become active in a raid. Maybe incorporate it as a free ability with a slightly longer CD from the skill tree. Of course, this along with keeping it as is with ignoring the GCD.

 

This would be a long shot, but I kind of think it would be beneficial to include a possible utility off Riposte if they went this route. Something like "places debuff on target that increases armor penetration by X% for X Seconds". This would be a DPS gain for the raid and ourselves.

Edited August 23, 2014 by veSev

[Gnimish]

Could not remove cd do force leap. Due to unstoppable. Way to op. Only way thst would work is in unstoppable add a cd to force leap by 7.5 seconds. Per point, so people would have to chose between survivability amd mobility

[veSev]

I personally think we have a lot good ideas in here. Before we get to the point that I feel the Guardian becomes so OP that we are the #1 choice for any Ops group, I want to see how we can incorporate these changes. What needs to added and removed from the skill tree? This is my personal recommendation for incorporating some of the changes discussed.

 

Keening: Increases DoT damage by 10% (instead of 9%).

Sundering Throw (Rename): Same reduced CD, useable between 0-30 meters (removed the armor debuff)

Burning Purpose:Overhead Slash sets target ablaze for 2XXX for 6 Seconds (DoT damage near PB)

Burning Blade: Blade Storm sets target ablaze for 2XXX for 6 Seconds (DoT damage near PB)

Narrowed Focus: Increased AOE damage reduction by 30% along with current state of tier ability.

 

Thoughts? I think these changes would help greatly for pre 3.0 along with a general leveling out of the damage to Master Strike. I would like to see the Riposte part I mentioned in my last post added post 3.0 in the additions to the skill tree since there is no place that really makes sense atm in the tree.

 

I was also chatting with someone in my guild that remember a post from Bioware a month or so ago, that I couldn't find, that mentioned they are taking a different approach with DPS going forward. Instead of continually buff/nerfing classes, they want to level out the DPS and focus on giving each class unique group utilities. If this is the case, I would like to see them incorporate the AOE taunt bubble for Tanks as a general addition to the AOE taunt button. This would be really nice to pop during heavy raid damage.

Edited August 23, 2014 by veSev

[Gnimish]

Hmm I don't think losing armor debuff would be good. In my raid group I am the only one with a armor debuff. Could be bad. Since besides the marauder I'm the only one that can't self cleanse. So without armor debuff and not being able to cleanse myself. How much dps would I have to do to make sense to keep bringing me?

[CaptainLunch]

Could not remove cd do force leap. Due to unstoppable. Way to op. Only way thst would work is in unstoppable add a cd to force leap by 7.5 seconds. Per point, so people would have to chose between survivability amd mobility

 

Probably should have noticed that before I posted

 

(and I like the suggestion!)

[veSev]

Hmm I don't think losing armor debuff would be good. In my raid group I am the only one with a armor debuff. Could be bad. Since besides the marauder I'm the only one that can't self cleanse. So without armor debuff and not being able to cleanse myself. How much dps would I have to do to make sense to keep bringing me?

 

Sundering Strike naturally places an armor debuff on the boss for 40 secs (roughly that time, not in game so dont know exact timing), so really the sundering throw is partially useless. The only reason we even use the talent is for the reduced CD on saber throw. The only thing that would change by removing the armor debuff from saber throw is that your opener would now be Force Leap - Sundering Strike instead of Saber Throw - Force Leap. The only reason I suggest the change to Sundering Throw is to force a reinvention of the current set bonuses.

Edited August 23, 2014 by veSev

[Gnimish]

O that was not something I was aware of at all learn something new every day

 

Would change opener a little fc, ss, pb, rav

Edited August 23, 2014 by Gnimish

[Mr_Fuzzle]

I personally think we have a lot good ideas in here. Before we get to the point that I feel the Guardian becomes so OP that we are the #1 choice for any Ops group, I want to see how we can incorporate these changes. What needs to added and removed from the skill tree? This is my personal recommendation for incorporating some of the changes discussed.

 

Keening: Increases DoT damage by 10% (instead of 9%).

Sundering Throw (Rename): Same reduced CD, useable between 0-30 meters (removed the armor debuff)

Burning Purpose:Overhead Slash sets target ablaze for 2XXX for 6 Seconds (DoT damage near PB)

Burning Blade: Blade Storm sets target ablaze for 2XXX for 6 Seconds (DoT damage near PB)

Narrowed Focus: Increased AOE damage reduction by 30% along with current state of tier ability.

 

Thoughts? I think these changes would help greatly for pre 3.0 along with a general leveling out of the damage to Master Strike. I would like to see the Riposte part I mentioned in my last post added post 3.0 in the additions to the skill tree since there is no place that really makes sense atm in the tree.

 

I was also chatting with someone in my guild that remember a post from Bioware a month or so ago, that I couldn't find, that mentioned they are taking a different approach with DPS going forward. Instead of continually buff/nerfing classes, they want to level out the DPS and focus on giving each class unique group utilities. If this is the case, I would like to see them incorporate the AOE taunt bubble for Tanks as a general addition to the AOE taunt button. This would be really nice to pop during heavy raid damage.

 

I really don't think the AoE taunt bubble should be global to Guardians, kind of removes something unique from the tank tree. I like the proposed changes for the most part, just make sure that Narrowed Focus has the 30% AoE DR locked to Shien form. Otherwise we'll go back to the pre-2.0 Guardian tank Hybrid again (for quite a few fights too).

Edited August 25, 2014 by Mr_Fuzzle

[Creslan]

Things I would like to see.

 

-Armor pen ; either limited by time or type. i.e.(30% armor pen on melee{white} attacks or 30% on all attacks for 6 secs after using some ability)

 

- Riposte (allow riposte to change it's proc requirement depending on stance and lower cost)

i.e( riposte in shien form can proc off dots and costs 1 focus, for shi-cho base the proc off force attacks for 1 focus cost, keep it as is for soresu.)

 

-allow guardian leap to be either target or ground target i.e( if friendly target is selected it acts normally, if no friendly target is selected a ground target reticule is produced to allow the guardian to place it and leap to that area.)

 

-master strike alacrity increase the longer in combat to a max of 0.5 to 0.7 secs that would expire if out of combat. This can be a stacking buff that is based on either time in combat or off skill use that increased the alacrity of MS only, the longer the guardian is in combat to a set max, would not stack with other alacrity buffs or stats.

 

few ideas. but i've been gone for a few months. with fights the way they are and the limited time on target in some stages I don't think dots are the way to go.

[veSev]

I really don't think the AoE taunt bubble should be global to Guardians, kind of removes something unique from the tank tree. I like the proposed changes for the most part, just make sure that Narrowed Focus has the 30% AoE DR locked to Shien form. Otherwise we'll go back to the pre-2.0 Guardian tank Hybrid again (for quite a few fights too).

 

While everyone has differing opinions on Hybrids, I don't believe we should lock it down simply because both the Vanguard and Shadow can run Hybrid tank builds that give them 30% AOE reduction. I know our Assassin Tank in Proper Villains runs the Hybrid for a few fights in NiM DP. Hybrids should not out class full builds, but they should offer some utility. However, that is my opinion on hybrids as a whole.

 

-Armor pen ; either limited by time or type. i.e.(30% armor pen on melee{white} attacks or 30% on all attacks for 6 secs after using some ability)

 

- Riposte (allow riposte to change it's proc requirement depending on stance and lower cost)

i.e( riposte in shien form can proc off dots and costs 1 focus, for shi-cho base the proc off force attacks for 1 focus cost, keep it as is for soresu.)

 

If you go back a page, I basically added these two together in one of my previous posts lol.

 

-allow guardian leap to be either target or ground target i.e( if friendly target is selected it acts normally, if no friendly target is selected a ground target reticule is produced to allow the guardian to place it and leap to that area.)

 

-master strike alacrity increase the longer in combat to a max of 0.5 to 0.7 secs that would expire if out of combat. This can be a stacking buff that is based on either time in combat or off skill use that increased the alacrity of MS only, the longer the guardian is in combat to a set max, would not stack with other alacrity buffs or stats.

 

That seems rather tedious for us to have to select where to jump. And in truth, I dont really see where this would be useful. When we leap, we want to be near a target, and having the ability to just leap to a point would only be useful, if done quickly enough, when we are running out or animations.

 

The Master Strike idea isnt bad, but this would ruin the current flow of the rotation and force us to use Strike and Slash more often. I am not a fan of that. If we get any sort of Alacrity boost, it would need to be a general alacrity increase in order to make sure that the rotation stays as is.

Edited August 25, 2014 by veSev

[Vid-szhite]

*Forewarned, this is purely from a Progression PvE perspective. I will be the first to admit how "OP" the Vigilance/Vengeance spec is in PvP between our cooldowns and roots. *

 

All right.

 

So we are in the midst of yet another series of class changes with 2.10 dropping in early September. Currently, the Guardian DPS, specifically Vigilance/Vengeance, is lacking in comparison to the majority of mdps classes. Now, when I say this I am not talking purely about damage, but rather raid ability and utility. Beyond 2-3 bosses in the current tier of Nightmare content, Guardian/Juggernaut's faults truly shine. In a sense, a Guardian/Jugg DPS is little more than an Arsenal Mercenary at melee range. By this I mean we are forced to remain stationary every 10+ secs for Master Strike/Ravage. With the current necessary mobility in raids, it makes it extremely difficult to call the Guardian/Jugg DPS viable, or rather a better or comparable class option compared to Vanguards, Shadows or Sentinels.

 

Are you fricking kidding me? On most fights if I don't out-parse our Marauders, I'm neck and neck with them. I regularly out-DPS our Powertech and our Mercs, especially on Draxus, because the current top parsing specs for all the other classes do absolutely horrible on Draxus, while Rage/Focus is practically cheating with how easy you can laugh your way to the top.

 

Now, I've heard the argument that we have an off-taunt and armor debuff as a debate for including a Guard/Jugg DPS in a raid. While this is great for a 16-man group, in 8-man content, which is what the game from my perspective is deigned around, these utilities offer very little incentive to add us to a groups composition. I personally off-tank for 16-man Nightmare Bestia and the few times I have attempted 16-man Nightmare Council, but in a top tier progression 8-man group I dont believe I've ever seen a DPS have to tank beyond emergency tanking during a final burn phase. However in 8-man, a Sniper/Gunslinger is a better option than a Guard/Jugg, when comparing classes, for their range and steady damage along with their self cleanse, raid shield, and armor debuff.

 

Off-taunt is necessary during Nightmare Draxus because of Dismantlers. It can also allow you to cheese someone else's orb on Brontes with Saber Reflect. PS, Saber Reflect is super useful. So is Enraged Defense -- many dots are not cleanse-able on Nightmare, even with Evasion, so if you get one, you can pop ED to eat it. You're seriously under-selling Jugg/Guardian if you think we don't have enough utility. We have boatloads more utility than the vast majority of classes in this game.

 

While it is true that if all things were equal, adding more snipers would be ideal, my guild actually tried this, and it didn't work, because we couldn't find more than one sniper who could pull higher numbers than me, and that one sniper was already on our team to begin with, so I was never in danger of losing my place to him. If anything, the fact that I can pull such impressive numbers with under-optimized gear (I still have 162 armorings in some of my gear!) has more than cemented my position in the roster.

 

You keep acting like your guild wants to spam more Marauders and Snipers, but honestly, if you're good enough, your guild won't have to. Not only is this fear unfounded, but not all snipers and marauders are nightmare-worthy. It takes much longer to gear up a new sniper and teach him the mechanics than it does to bring your Jugg who knows the fights and does great DPS (even if he's not able to bring 100% in all fights).

 

So how can we change this? Being that mobility, from my perspective, is our biggest issue it is hard to change that without entirely redesigning the skill tree. However, I had a few ideas that I feel will increase our damage output to make us comparable to other Mdps classes to at the very least let us compete for raid spots until 3.0.

 

1) This, although my perspective has changed on it some based on conversations I've had, is an option to increase melee damage output. In the Rage skill tree, the Vigilance spec takes the tier ability called "Swift Slash" which increases Critical for Slash/Dispatch by 7.5%. Instead, we could make this a general melee critical increase to 6%. This would affect Master Strike, Overhead Slash, and Saber Throw along with the 2 ability mentioned now. Basically, this would steady out the spec enough that your crits during a raid will be less of a variable to your damage output.

 

2) Increasing the DoT damage by Overhead Slash, Blade Storm, and Plasma Brand. This, during heavily mobile fights, would allow the damage output to remain heavy even when we are forced to chase the boss. This could be increased either generally through the 2 DoTs created in the Skill tree and Plasma Brand or increasing the buff to DoTs by the "Keening" tier ability.

 

3) This is more of a raid boost than anything else. Currently, the Vigilance spec has no AOE reduction. Being that every fight in the current tier of content has an AOE ability hitting the raid, we could redesign the tier ability "Narrowed Focus" in the Vigilance tree to both generate focus and a have damage reduction for AOE damage. Although it doesnt increase our damage output, it would make the raid wide damage a smaller issue for the healers, thus making it easier on them to heal through tougher fights.

 

0) I have never had issues with mobility, ever, in Nightmare content. Once or twice I had problems with not being where I was supposed to be, but that's my own fault and nothing to do with me being a Jugg. My guild likes to run 2 MDPS / 2RDPS, and our melees are experts at positioning, so we almost never lose DPS to having to run around.

 

1) We don't need more DPS. Dummy parses might show us behind Marauders, but Vengeance is by far the best at converting Dummy Parse DPS to actual raid DPS. I've pulled Dummy Parse DPS in actual raid settings. If you're having problems with DPS, it's not the class, it's you.

 

2) More Dots would be nice, but I reiterate that Veng/Vig is pretty much where it needs to be.

 

3) Veng can actually pull surprisingly high AoE with Sweeping Slash spam, and if you need way more AoE, just spec rage for one fight. I feel I should point out that this makes us way better at AoE than any of the top parsers, especially annihilation and madness.

 

Honestly, I'm curious now, what fights are causing you to lose so much DPS? Grob'thok and Council (I'm on Calphayus duty) don't even give me trouble. Maybe every so often I might lose 0.1 second of uptime on Calphayus, but last HM Council run I did, I was only 2 DPS behind our Marauder, who was our top DPS. A whopping two. What's your guild doing that causes such a disparity between our experiences?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Vid-szhite