Dear Bioware....from a Progression raider

[veSev]

Are you fricking kidding me? On most fights if I don't out-parse our Marauders, I'm neck and neck with them. I regularly out-DPS our Powertech and our Mercs, especially on Draxus, because the current top parsing specs for all the other classes do absolutely horrible on Draxus, while Rage/Focus is practically cheating with how easy you can laugh your way to the top.

 

I would tend to say your playing with people who are under performing with their classes. Marauders I would give you, I always out DPS the Sentinel in my group (he knows it too lol). However, if your outperforming a Powertech, with the exception of Draxus sort of, then they are under performing. However, one fight doesn't make up for an entire Operation; especially when it is a boss in the middle of the raid.

 

Off-taunt is necessary during Nightmare Draxus because of Dismantlers. It can also allow you to cheese someone else's orb on Brontes with Saber Reflect. PS, Saber Reflect is super useful. So is Enraged Defense -- many dots are not cleanse-able on Nightmare, even with Evasion, so if you get one, you can pop ED to eat it. You're seriously under-selling Jugg/Guardian if you think we don't have enough utility. We have boatloads more utility than the vast majority of classes in this game.

 

While it is true that if all things were equal, adding more snipers would be ideal, my guild actually tried this, and it didn't work, because we couldn't find more than one sniper who could pull higher numbers than me, and that one sniper was already on our team to begin with, so I was never in danger of losing my place to him. If anything, the fact that I can pull such impressive numbers with under-optimized gear (I still have 162 armorings in some of my gear!) has more than cemented my position in the roster.

 

You keep acting like your guild wants to spam more Marauders and Snipers, but honestly, if you're good enough, your guild won't have to. Not only is this fear unfounded, but not all snipers and marauders are nightmare-worthy. It takes much longer to gear up a new sniper and teach him the mechanics than it does to bring your Jugg who knows the fights and does great DPS (even if he's not able to bring 100% in all fights)

 

Once again, one fight doesn't make up an entire instance. So having an off taunt for one boss doesn't mean much when you could easier bring a Shadow or Vanguard who should be out DPS the Guardian on every fight, with maybe an exception to Draxus, who also have an off-taunt. Shadows have Resiliance which is a bit shorter than Saber Reflect, but accomplished the same thing. Vanguards sadly have garbage CDs, that I will agree with in one aspect that a Guardian's Saber Reflect on Brontes can be far more helpful than having a Vanguard.

 

Also, Draxus is the boss that has a DoT that cannot be cleanse in DF, but this DoT is entirely avoidable by interrupting the Corruptors. If this gets out, its a DPS fault usually. Also, Tyrans has a DoT that cannot be cleansed, and yes ED is really useful for that fight in its current form. But basically cutting this down, Guardians have an OT and good CDs, which I have agreed with, but sadly this doesnt provide the same group utility that other classes do.

 

And you are correct, bringing someone entirely new to an instance creates a struggle that is unavoidable. This is regardless of class. Between the gearing process, learning strats, becoming comfortable with those strats, it is just asking for problems. However, if you have the option between bring a Jugg or Sniper in 8-man NiM Powered content, both knowing strats and are geared appropriately, I would tend to believe, and most top tier raiders would agree, the sniper would be taken before the Jugg. DF this could have gone either way, I will agree, but NiM DP it was obvious this was not the case.

 

0) I have never had issues with mobility, ever, in Nightmare content. Once or twice I had problems with not being where I was supposed to be, but that's my own fault and nothing to do with me being a Jugg. My guild likes to run 2 MDPS / 2RDPS, and our melees are experts at positioning, so we almost never lose DPS to having to run around.

 

1) We don't need more DPS. Dummy parses might show us behind Marauders, but Vengeance is by far the best at converting Dummy Parse DPS to actual raid DPS. I've pulled Dummy Parse DPS in actual raid settings. If you're having problems with DPS, it's not the class, it's you.

 

2) More Dots would be nice, but I reiterate that Veng/Vig is pretty much where it needs to be.

 

3) Veng can actually pull surprisingly high AoE with Sweeping Slash spam, and if you need way more AoE, just spec rage for one fight. I feel I should point out that this makes us way better at AoE than any of the top parsers, especially annihilation and madness.

 

Honestly, I'm curious now, what fights are causing you to lose so much DPS? Grob'thok and Council (I'm on Calphayus duty) don't even give me trouble. Maybe every so often I might lose 0.1 second of uptime on Calphayus, but last HM Council run I did, I was only 2 DPS behind our Marauder, who was our top DPS. A whopping two. What's your guild doing that causes such a disparity between our experiences?

 

0) Mobility is an issue in NiM DP, I think most Jugg/Guardians in there would agree. Bestia is fine. Tyrans can cause problems with DPS if your not arent paying attention and setting things up before moving platforms. Calphayus has little to no difference from HM, so I cant really say there are issues there. Raptus has always been terrible for Mdps as a whole, and this is compounded if a tank doesnt place Force Exhaustion (believe thats the name of the ability) is a place that allows for quick leaps as the tanks swap. Council is fine in phase 1, phase 2 is the only point that matters. Between the greater need for AOE splash damage and lightning fingers, the DPS a Jugg can put out doesnt compare with other classes during this phase. Basically, you will be the lacking DPS in that phase and most groups cannot fight through that with NiM Power. Once NiM Power is gone, I am sure I will be able to down it with zero issues. But that is not what my point is.

 

1) Your right, raid DPS and dummy DPS are dam near even for me on bosses that enable me to have long burn phases. Nefra I can easily pull 3700-4k and Grob I can pull 3800+ with all single target damage (more if I decide to run Focus for fluff damage, but that really isnt needed), but this is also provided I have the crits to do so. Beyond these 2 bosses, I dont see another one that enables long burn phases to really get into our rotations. Raptus on occasions, but you have more movement in NiM which really hurts your DPS.

 

2) I think you underestimating the content as it is now. DF NiM is not difficult with the exception of Brontes (debatable of course), and this is especially true without NiM Power. However, NiM DP is a whole other game, from my perspective, when comparing NiM Powered content.

 

3) Marauder Smash is better than Jugg Smash. And spamming Sweeping Slash is just a waste of resources. If I were to waste 3 rage during Council phase 2 on 4k damage (on a crit), my single target burn on Styrak would probably turn to garbage since it would force me to build rage back up to get into my rotation. And Madness has better AOE potential than a Veng Jugg. I mean we crit for maybe 5k w/ relic procs on Smash, but a Madness Assassin can hit for 4k w/o crits and probably pushing 10k w/ relic procs. Other classes have far better AOE potential in their best specs than we do.

 

I think we are on 2 diffferent paths here, from my understanding. Your talking purely about DF NiM, as it is now, and DP HM. I am talking about NiM Powered content. These are 2 very different content tiers. DF NiM, as it is now, is rather easy. I mean the first night I joined Proper Villains we "Gate Crash"ered, which was faction 1st, server 2nd. So to call DF NiM difficult now would be rather unfair of me. I am pretty sure a few Jugg/Guard DPS got the Conquer title from that. However, NiM Powered DP is the current tier content, and it is hindering Jugg DPS as a whole. With 2 weeks left before it goes away, I believe we may only have one Guardian DPS with the Deposer title. Compared to other classes/specs, I would say that puts our spec at the bottom of the list.

 

*Btw, I am sorry for the long post.

Edited August 25, 2014 by veSev

[Vid-szhite]

ALL Melee DPS are currently lacking in Progressional Raiding. Marauders/Sentinels, Assassins/Shadows, Concealment Op/Scondrel Scrapper all suck major balls in the current raid Content because you have to move around so much.

 

Melee DPS have to walk from target to target, destroying their DPS numbers while ranged DPS simply have to tab target and bam, no drop in their DPS numbers.

 

I worked my butt off to raise a Marauder and get her the best gear but it is very annoying to have to walk (cause sprint is disabled!!!) from target to target. it's just not really worth playing MDPS in raids any more.

 

RDPS have to walk just as much in most content, and for many of them, they can't keep DPSing at peak while they do. Fingers of Brontes requires people to stand next to them, draxus has bulwarks that reflect damage from outside, Council has shields too, Grobthok doesn't walk fast enough or often enough to screw up melee DPS, Simplification affects ranged just as bad as melee, Raptus teleports ranged way more often than melee, and Jugg/Guard are easily the best at coming back from a teleport thanks to intercede and charge. Bestia's tentacles require someone standing next to them, and so on. My experience with progression brings me to very different conclusions than everyone else here. Sometimes I feel like when all this QQ about melee DPS shows up, whether people are actually playing the game, or are just playing the game on paper.

[TACeMossie]

All right.

 

Are you fricking kidding me? On most fights if I don't out-parse our Marauders, I'm neck and neck with them. I regularly out-DPS our Powertech and our Mercs, especially on Draxus, because the current top parsing specs for all the other classes do absolutely horrible on Draxus, while Rage/Focus is practically cheating with how easy you can laugh your way to the top.

 

Off-taunt is necessary during Nightmare Draxus because of Dismantlers. It can also allow you to cheese someone else's orb on Brontes with Saber Reflect. PS, Saber Reflect is super useful. So is Enraged Defense -- many dots are not cleanse-able on Nightmare, even with Evasion, so if you get one, you can pop ED to eat it. You're seriously under-selling Jugg/Guardian if you think we don't have enough utility. We have boatloads more utility than the vast majority of classes in this game.

 

While it is true that if all things were equal, adding more snipers would be ideal, my guild actually tried this, and it didn't work, because we couldn't find more than one sniper who could pull higher numbers than me, and that one sniper was already on our team to begin with, so I was never in danger of losing my place to him. If anything, the fact that I can pull such impressive numbers with under-optimized gear (I still have 162 armorings in some of my gear!) has more than cemented my position in the roster.

 

You keep acting like your guild wants to spam more Marauders and Snipers, but honestly, if you're good enough, your guild won't have to. Not only is this fear unfounded, but not all snipers and marauders are nightmare-worthy. It takes much longer to gear up a new sniper and teach him the mechanics than it does to bring your Jugg who knows the fights and does great DPS (even if he's not able to bring 100% in all fights).

 

0) I have never had issues with mobility, ever, in Nightmare content. Once or twice I had problems with not being where I was supposed to be, but that's my own fault and nothing to do with me being a Jugg. My guild likes to run 2 MDPS / 2RDPS, and our melees are experts at positioning, so we almost never lose DPS to having to run around.

 

1) We don't need more DPS. Dummy parses might show us behind Marauders, but Vengeance is by far the best at converting Dummy Parse DPS to actual raid DPS. I've pulled Dummy Parse DPS in actual raid settings. If you're having problems with DPS, it's not the class, it's you.

 

2) More Dots would be nice, but I reiterate that Veng/Vig is pretty much where it needs to be.

 

3) Veng can actually pull surprisingly high AoE with Sweeping Slash spam, and if you need way more AoE, just spec rage for one fight. I feel I should point out that this makes us way better at AoE than any of the top parsers, especially annihilation and madness.

 

Honestly, I'm curious now, what fights are causing you to lose so much DPS? Grob'thok and Council (I'm on Calphayus duty) don't even give me trouble. Maybe every so often I might lose 0.1 second of uptime on Calphayus, but last HM Council run I did, I was only 2 DPS behind our Marauder, who was our top DPS. A whopping two. What's your guild doing that causes such a disparity between our experiences?

 

Im gonna respond to these as a Vanguard DPS who has dabbled in Guardian DPS

 

First off, Id hate to say it, but the DPS on your team aren't doing too well. Im a slightly above average VG (4/5NiM DF, 0/5 DP right now). For the fights, here's what we do:

 

Nefra. VG runs Assault, Sent runs watchman. Healers are smart and HoT up the VG and Sent instead of cleansing them so they can abuse Into the Fray and Electro Shield (VG) /Rebuke (Sent). Sent pops Inspiration in last 30%.

Doing that puts me at 4100dps average on nefra, and my sent buddy at 4k+. We've only got a couple of DM gear pieces too.

 

Draxus. Guardian tank puts on DPS gear and respecs. His DPS gear is about as good as ours.

Everyone respecs AoE.

 

By the end of the fight, the numbers look sort of like this:

 

VG1 - 3500

Sab Slinger -3490 (Subject to change, he missed this weeks draxus cause he had to heal, and roll-on-the-spot is gone)

Sent -3450

VG2 - 3350

Guardian - 3000

 

Despite only the guardian using his AoE taunt to handle dismantlers (though I could do it if we didnt use both VGs to grab them at the start), we dont need a second off taunt because the dismantlers are too busy being dead because our DPS know what we are doing. In fact, the dismantlers are pretty much dead before our guardian even needs to taunt.

 

Grob'thok, we dont pad numbers, and use offensive cooldowns on the magnet. Im consistantly over 4k here as well, though everyone else is typically lower because of either being pure melee or a turret (The fire screws people over who have to melee or channel. And Vig is both)

 

C-Zero - I open with adrenal/crit boost/Mortar Volley into Pulse Cannon into spamming AoEs. 10k DPS later, and the adds are gone. We LoS the Adds and once again, breif periods of 10k DPS whenever they bunch up on us. These periods are 6 seconds long instead of 2 seconds like a guardian's is.

 

Ill leave the other NiMs down until we kill them, but with HMs the situation is still there. If you cant be in melee range, the only mdps class that keeps up is the PT/VG. I Imagine that NiM Tyrans + Raptus would heavily favor an Assault VG over a Vig Guardian, and especially Phase 2 of council With all the reach dodging you have to do.

 

Oh and ive seen the raptus kiter as an assault VG pull 4k dps consistantly, only eating 1-2 hits every 15 seconds

 

EDIT - Ok this post came across wrong. What I was saying is you are either an exceptional Jugg DPS in a team of averages, or an average Jugg DPS in a team of superbads. What is true of your raid isn't true of every raid.

Also Jugg DPS isn't as good at transitioning from a dummy to a raid as a PT's is, because PTs get extra resources in a raid.

Edited August 26, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Joran-Koon]

RDPS have to walk just as much in most content, and for many of them, they can't keep DPSing at peak while they do. Fingers of Brontes requires people to stand next to them, draxus has bulwarks that reflect damage from outside, Council has shields too, Grobthok doesn't walk fast enough or often enough to screw up melee DPS, Simplification affects ranged just as bad as melee, Raptus teleports ranged way more often than melee, and Jugg/Guard are easily the best at coming back from a teleport thanks to intercede and charge. Bestia's tentacles require someone standing next to them, and so on. My experience with progression brings me to very different conclusions than everyone else here. Sometimes I feel like when all this QQ about melee DPS shows up, whether people are actually playing the game, or are just playing the game on paper.

 

lol that almost sounds like you're trying to make a "woe is me" case for ranged lol. Might want to stop that, no one's buying it.

 

NiM DF now, to me, is exactly like HM DF, just more mechanics. Damage is the same, health is the same. and for the majority of that op, we do just fine. Brontes can get annoying with finger spawns but you'e right, we get to laugh at orbs in their face. The trade off is nice.

 

However, the fights that matter in NiM powered DP aren't our friends. Like Vesev said and I agree with, I feel you're talking about a very different level of progression. If you have seen council as a jugg/guardian dps, you'll know that we get wrecked in there.

I'm curious to know where your team is at progression wise if you, as the jugg/guardian dps, are the highest parsing in fights.

 

Moving on, I said it before and i'll reiterate it again, We are NOT in an awful position. The Dev team has made great strides in taking us from where we were to the here and now and I appreciate them for allowing me to play my favorite class the way that I can. However, recently every other class has received an overabundance level of love and attention and although we have not been forgotten, we've been left behind a little bit. (same with slingers/snipers)

The sage/sorcs had a thread similar to this that involved the community and I have no doubt that it played a role in putting them where they are today (near the top). From what I understand, and Vesev can correct me if I'm wrong, that's what this thread has the intention of doing.

 

The ideas have been great and we'd be foolish not to answer some criticism, as without it, we can't truly come to an agreement. Therefore, in the future posts, If you have a conflicting opinion, please be specific on what you are legitimately against and have a good reason for it. From what I've seen thus far, Vesev has come up with the most solidified idea of possible changes that may strike a balance between our PvE under-performance and PvP dominance.

 

Still rooting for my Guardian version of inspo/bloodthirst though

[veSev]

lol that almost sounds like you're trying to make a "woe is me" case for ranged lol. Might want to stop that, no one's buying it.

 

NiM DF now, to me, is exactly like HM DF, just more mechanics. Damage is the same, health is the same. and for the majority of that op, we do just fine. Brontes can get annoying with finger spawns but you'e right, we get to laugh at orbs in their face. The trade off is nice.

 

However, the fights that matter in NiM powered DP aren't our friends. Like Vesev said and I agree with, I feel you're talking about a very different level of progression. If you have seen council as a jugg/guardian dps, you'll know that we get wrecked in there.

I'm curious to know where your team is at progression wise if you, as the jugg/guardian dps, are the highest parsing in fights.

 

Moving on, I said it before and i'll reiterate it again, We are NOT in an awful position. The Dev team has made great strides in taking us from where we were to the here and now and I appreciate them for allowing me to play my favorite class the way that I can. However, recently every other class has received an overabundance level of love and attention and although we have not been forgotten, we've been left behind a little bit. (same with slingers/snipers)

The sage/sorcs had a thread similar to this that involved the community and I have no doubt that it played a role in putting them where they are today (near the top). From what I understand, and Vesev can correct me if I'm wrong, that's what this thread has the intention of doing.

 

The ideas have been great and we'd be foolish not to answer some criticism, as without it, we can't truly come to an agreement. Therefore, in the future posts, If you have a conflicting opinion, please be specific on what you are legitimately against and have a good reason for it. From what I've seen thus far, Vesev has come up with the most solidified idea of possible changes that may strike a balance between our PvE under-performance and PvP dominance.

 

Still rooting for my Guardian version of inspo/bloodthirst though

 

Don't believe I could have said it better myself. Appreciate the feedback, and yes that is my attempt to bring the Guardian community together, and Juggernaut, to have a consensus on what it is we want going forward. Speaking plainly, I am new to the top tier progression scene. Prior to this tier, I have not had the opportunity to step into NiM content day one of drop. Between my lack of skill and the groups I was in, it simply wasnt an option for me. However, I have taken strides to become better at my class and the game to a point that I feel I can compete for raid spots in top tier guilds. That being said, the issue that comes back again and again is the vulnerability of Guard/Jugg DPS in 8-man content.

 

So, I simply asked the question "what can we do to solve this?". And the ideas thus far have been great. But as Kal'izo said, I want to know what perspective your speaking from if you have altering opinions on where the Jugg/Guard DPS is right now. I welcome contradictions to any statement I make, but if it comes off in a manner that appears far from understanding the class expect to called out on it. This is expect in any discussion about the state of a class/spec, for if you feel obligated to speak about how wrong or right those who have spoken are you must understand the class and content enough to see the points being made. Making claims about lower tier content may be where to majority of the community is, which is perfectly fine, but I made it clear, or thought I did, that this is from a progression perspective. Although our definitions of progression may differ, I believe most of us can agree the we view progression, in one form or another, as running/completing the current top tier content.

 

Edit: I reread this after I posted it. I wont alter what I said, but it appeared to come off a little harsh. That was not my intent. I purely wanted to expand upon my own perspective which is something I may have failed to do in my original post. I am unsure if I can state it clearer, but I feel between Kal'izo's post and mine it gives a better picture of my perspective of progression and what we are trying to accomplish.

Edited August 26, 2014 by veSev

[GrandLordMenace]

Really all we need is enough DPS to justify one simple fact: out of all the melee classes we have the worst mobility. After that, utility shmitility. I want flat DPS, not rotational changes, and keep it restricted to DoTs and various ancillary talents.

 

As for PVP, axe the Master Strike root. Give us AOE DR. We'll be fine.

Edited August 27, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[veSev]

Really all we need is enough DPS to justify one simple fact: out of all the melee classes we have the worst mobility. After that, utility shmitility. I want flat DPS, not rotational changes, and keep it restricted to DoTs and various ancillary talents.

 

As for PVP, axe the Master Strike root. Give us AOE DR. We'll be fine.

 

Already stated lol:

 

Keening: Increases DoT damage by 10% (instead of 9%).

Sundering Throw (Rename): Same reduced CD, useable between 0-30 meters (removed the armor debuff)

Burning Purpose:Overhead Slash sets target ablaze for 2XXX for 6 Seconds (DoT damage near PB)

Burning Blade: Blade Storm sets target ablaze for 2XXX for 6 Seconds (DoT damage near PB)

Narrowed Focus: Increased AOE damage reduction by 30% along with current state of tier ability.

 

And here is some utility that would be nice:

 

I was also chatting with someone in my guild that remember a post from Bioware a month or so ago, that I couldn't find, that mentioned they are taking a different approach with DPS going forward. Instead of continually buff/nerfing classes, they want to level out the DPS and focus on giving each class unique group utilities. If this is the case, I would like to see them incorporate the AOE taunt bubble for Tanks as a general addition to the AOE taunt button. This would be really nice to pop during heavy raid damage.

 

I like the idea of adding Riposte into the rotation. I personally use it for dailies and such since it only becomes active after defecting an attack. However, I never see it become active in a raid. Maybe incorporate it as a free ability with a slightly longer CD from the skill tree. Of course, this along with keeping it as is with ignoring the GCD.

 

This would be a long shot, but I kind of think it would be beneficial to include a possible utility off Riposte if they went this route. Something like "places debuff on target that increases armor penetration by X% for X Seconds". This would be a DPS gain for the raid and ourselves.

[Joran-Koon]

From what I've seen thus far, Vesev has come up with the most solidified idea of possible changes that may strike a balance between our PvE under-performance and PvP dominance.

I didn't want to feel left out as we quoted ourselves...

[veSev]

Haha, yeah. I just feel like we are repeating ourselves at this point. I think we have our list or changes that would help going forward, and the only other thing to discuss is what sort of utlility beyond our armor debuff/off taunt/good CDs should a Guardian bring to a raid? This, keep in mind, is something tank classes dont have as DPS in general, so this is not an argument of "other classes have it better than us".

[holmeskywalkr]

Why wanting to remove debuff armor from saber throw? It's kinda useful in pvp and pve..

[veSev]

Why wanting to remove debuff armor from saber throw? It's kinda useful in pvp and pve..

 

The idea behind it is to remove the current 2 piece set bonus and put it in the skill tree. Since we also get the debuff from Sundering Strike, I dont see a reason to have it twice, and since Saber Throw is relied upon heavily in the Vigilance rotation I dont know why its even a set bonus to begin with. Of course, this is also under the belief that if we want the 2-piece set bonus added into the skill tree we'd have to give something up, and this seemed to be the most likely change.

Edited August 28, 2014 by veSev

[GrandLordMenace]

The idea behind it is to remove the current 2 piece set bonus and put it in the skill tree. Since we also get the debuff from Sundering Strike, I dont see a reason to have it twice, and since Saber Throw is relied upon heavily in the Vigilance rotation I dont know why its even a set bonus to begin with. Of course, this is also under the belief that if we want the 2-piece set bonus added into the skill tree we'd have to give something up, and this seemed to be the most likely change.

 

My personal opinion is that sundering throw is still useful, just to have the ability to multi armor debuff.

[veSev]

My personal opinion is that sundering throw is still useful, just to have the ability to multi armor debuff.

 

Never said its not useful, I just believe its the one thing that we can give up for a decrease in Saber Throw range in the skill tree and it wont hurt us or the raid. However, I really dont see fights many fights with multiple targets that need the armor debuff, and by this I mean per longed engagements. Brontes with the Hands would be a good spot for Sundering Throw and Council of course, but beyond that most target swapping happens on adds that range between 60k-200k; which in a NiM raid group is nothing to burn through with or without an armor debuff.

 

The only reason I make this case is that Saber Throw is necessary to make our rotation work. If you dont have it, its a significant strain on focus management. I believe it should be an integrated part of the skill tree because of its necessity, but I am sure someone else can make a case in the skill tree that it fits far better and what they would like to see as set bonuses going forward.

[Marb]

I think the immortal skill "crushing fist" should be a passive skill for all juggernauts, which would mean that smash would apply armor reduction for vengeance and rage specs. Very keen on the idea of Sonic Wall being a passive for all juggs as well. Add these two on top of intercede and we have some competitive raid utility. Edited August 29, 2014 by Marb

[darth_psychose]

Hi,

 

first sorry for the english level if it's not always clear. Interessting post, vesev ty for this post. We need to think like this : There are 3 dps classes with a tank tree so :

 

" what we got & what they don't "

" what we don't have & what they have "

 

And finally does it balanced in pve pov ? (i don't think i can answer to this HUGE question with a clear english ..)

 

I agree with a lot of ideas in here. Mine and my favorites are

 

- Remove melee saber throw from bonus set 2p vindicator (mara have dual saber throw melee hit by default without a fking 2P) and change it with the actually 4p vindic. But what gonna be the 4pc after that ? no idea. I agree with the personn telling that mara 2p +8% damage on ravage/master strike is more important for guardian.

 

- Up the damage dealt by force scream/blade storm DOT & impale/overhead slash DOT. 400-450crit dmg each tick could be nice. Don't forget (in pvp pov) these dots can be cure LOL. 129 dmg / tick and curable, op plz nerf.

 

- Plz, one offensive cd. Just one, plz .. armor pen, crit bonus (combat focus vanguard/powertech), surge bonus, alac bonus i don't know but do it.

 

- We don't have a lot of dmg bonus, crit bonus on some spell, surge bonus or armor pen in skill tree.

 

I don't think we need 30% aoe reduction for pve and pvp imho. Maybe it can be a stackable buff after using X or Y abilities which reduc dmg taken by Z% or something like that. Or juyo force leap melee .. but it can be too op with the dmg reduction after use it and force leap reset cd after force push. But it can be pretty good idea i like it.

 

yolomisation/kalameet

Edited August 29, 2014 by darth_psychose

[veSev]

I think the immortal skill "crushing fist" should be a passive skill for all juggernauts, which would mean that smash would apply armor reduction for vengeance and rage specs. Very keen on the idea of Sonic Wall being a passive for all juggs as well. Add these two on top of intercede and we have some competitive raid utility.

 

I like that idea, but I believe someone said before "then what is unique utility to the tank spec?". I tend to agree with this statement since we see Shadows having the healing puddle, but sadly Vanguards are lacking in this area. Right now, Shadows and Guardians tanks, beyond pure tank abilities, offer the better raid utilities of any of their specs. If they made these sorts of utilities for the advanced class rather than spec they would really need to beef up the Vanguards utility too. But speaking to the point of the smash armor debuff as a general utility, think of how OP Smash would become in PvP. The cries of "NERF PLZ TO OP" would be plentiful.

 

Just to shift gears a bit in the conversations. I believe we have a solid list of changes we want to see on the DPS side of things. I'd like to move it towards raid utility and what tanks need . Raid utility is something I have mentioned before in a few posts, but I would like to hear what others believe would give us a viable edge in competing for raid spots. Being that I haven't main tanked since TFB HM was a thing, I will leave it to those who understand the nuances of a Guardian tank better to say "this is broken".

Edited August 29, 2014 by veSev

[darth_psychose]

I think it could be a great idea for interv/guard leap (i don't know if it's the english name of the jump which reduc the damage taken by the target) more useable in raid. At the beginning (1.0 - 1.1 i think) of the game there was a spell in vengeance/vigilance tree " When you use interv/guard leap on a ally you have 50-100% chance to gain the buff too"

 

it could be a dmg reduc for the tank and a good assist on a group member

 

but the main problem with this spell is tank cannot often us it cuz they have aggro of the boss. I don't have idea for tank & i don't know if they really need to be buffed.

 

PS : hybrid tank immortal/vengeance was so cool ..

[veSev]

I think it could be a great idea for interv/guard leap (i don't know if it's the english name of the jump which reduc the damage taken by the target) more useable in raid. At the beginning (1.0 - 1.1 i think) of the game there was a spell in vengeance/vigilance tree " When you use interv/guard leap on a ally you have 50-100% chance to gain the buff too"

 

it could be a dmg reduc for the tank and a good assist on a group member

 

but the main problem with this spell is tank cannot often us it cuz they have aggro of the boss. I don't have idea for tank & i don't know if they really need to be buffed.

 

PS : hybrid tank immortal/vengeance was so cool ..

 

Yeah, I use during heavy AOE parts of fights like just before burn phase and after each shield for Brontes in DF, and in DP I use it on Raptus a lot. Sadly, I cant use it on fights that would make more sense like Tyrans. If you use it on someone other than mdps, your basically putting yourself and the group at risk by getting out of place or becoming stuck while infernos are out.

 

The only time our Guardian Tank uses it beyond those mentioned above is on Nefra right before he taunts. Honestly, I see it as more of a gap closer, if Force Leap is on CD, than anything else. Yes, the damage mitigation helps, but its short enough to not matter if not used at the correct time or on the correct person.

 

But yeah, I never ran the hybrid, but heard it was pretty good. I am all for hybrids in the sense that they offer utility to the player. So long as they dont become to "be all, end all" spec, I feel they are fine. It would be similar to the current Shadow tank hybrid. People run this on fights like Tyrans for the 30% AOE damage reduction which is hugely helpful since Thundering Blast is the bulk of the damage.

[Joran-Koon]

I tanked through DF/DP HM "progression" and overall, the jugg tanks are pretty good. They work way better in DF than in DP because of the different damage types but if I had any complaints it would be these two:

 

1.) We have to work real hard on pulls to establish ourselves on top of the aggro table and the rotation revolves around 4 moves with a variety of fillers. After a bit, everything (and I mean everything) is on CD so i spend time with nothing to do while waiting for the high threat moves to come back up. It almost feels like "burst" aggro-build and then blah....I might be on my own on that though lol, just my thoughts.

 

2.) We move like turtles. No force speed, no HTL/override. The only thing, as mentioned, is intercede and that's dependent on someone else. Our force leap is fine EXCEPT when we're doing what our role is to do, which is tank. I mean Jonny Grob'Thok + Jugg tank? not great other than the fact that we have to be better to compensate for our class failings. (NiM, HM is easy mode)

[Marb]

I tanked through DF/DP HM "progression" and overall, the jugg tanks are pretty good. They work way better in DF than in DP because of the different damage types but if I had any complaints it would be these two:

 

1.) We have to work real hard on pulls to establish ourselves on top of the aggro table and the rotation revolves around 4 moves with a variety of fillers. After a bit, everything (and I mean everything) is on CD so i spend time with nothing to do while waiting for the high threat moves to come back up. It almost feels like "burst" aggro-build and then blah....I might be on my own on that though lol, just my thoughts.

 

2.) We move like turtles. No force speed, no HTL/override. The only thing, as mentioned, is intercede and that's dependent on someone else. Our force leap is fine EXCEPT when we're doing what our role is to do, which is tank. I mean Jonny Grob'Thok + Jugg tank? not great other than the fact that we have to be better to compensate for our class failings. (NiM, HM is easy mode)

 

I would mirror the concerns about mobility and ranged/AoE flexibility. You really don't need to play a jugg tank for very long to quickly realise the gaps in their toolkit for general tank stuff like tanking mixed groups of adds where you have to deal with knockbacks, snares, getting threat on ranged enemies all the while building a nice tight ball so your melee AoEs can actually hit multiple targets. It's doable, but it has a learning curve.

 

Comparatively these tank duties don't take any special consideration for vanguards and shadows, which is why I would consider it an issue for guardian tanks. Saber Reflect is wonderful when it's up as it almost eliminates these drawbacks, but it means there's a lot riding on that 1 minute cooldown. Saber Reflect is down? put your tank pants on!

 

KBN also did some work showing how fights which favour shield/absorb are quite punishing for guardian tanks.

 

Burst threat is an issue for all three tank classes and comes back to the dps arms race, though there have been some good suggestions put forward on how to fix this for guardians specifically.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Marb

[holmeskywalkr]

2.) We move like turtles. No force speed, no HTL/override. The only thing, as mentioned, is intercede and that's dependent on someone else. Our force leap is fine EXCEPT when we're doing what our role is to do, which is tank. I mean Jonny Grob'Thok + Jugg tank? not great other than the fact that we have to be better to compensate for our class failings. (NiM, HM is easy mode)

 

If you were talking about tank, expeditious protector increases speed by 30% when guarded target is attacked

Edited September 3, 2014 by holmeskywalkr

[veSev]

Forgot to ask Kalizo, but I got my first full week of Coucnil pulls last week for Proper Villains. We were running a rather bad DPS comp with 2 snipers, a PT and me. We continually got to phase 2 without issue, but always wiped at the reaches with roughly 100k or less to go. We made it past once just as the Masters became active again, but had 2 people down and it turned bad quickly. Anyways, I was wondering what DPS you pulled on the Council kill? I was sitting around 2.9-3k overall. I only got to look at one series of pulls on Torparse and saw during phase 2 I was sitting around 3.9-4k on Styrak and sat around 3.3-3.4k during Brontes and reaches.

 

I think if we had a mara in there for bloodthirst it would have been GG, but I was curious if I could be doing better or was good enough to kill.

[Marb]

If you were talking about tank, expeditious protector increases speed by 30% when guarded target is attacked

 

Which the vanguard has access too as well. I wouldn't say guardians need more mobility tools outside of a better way to recover or avoid knockbacks/snares (pvp balance implications could make this impractical anyway), what we need are better tools to generate threat beyond 5m. Saber Throw just doesn't cut it.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Marb

[TACeMossie]

Which the vanguard has access too as well. I wouldn't say guardians need more mobility tools outside of a better way to recover or avoid knockbacks/snares (pvp balance implications could make this impractical anyway), what we need are better tools to generate threat beyond 5m. Saber Throw just doesn't cut it.

 

Vanguards dont have that, they have a speed boost that typically isn't talented for after using jet charge that refreshes on being attacked.

[Marb]

Vanguards dont have that, they have a speed boost that typically isn't talented for after using jet charge that refreshes on being attacked.

 

They do have a 30% speed boost, you just described the exact skill. Because you choose not to talent it means it doesn't exist?

 

Seriously off topic.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Marb