SW:TOR will experience the first ever overnight ecomonic crash of an MMO.

[DarthSylar]

A crash, literally can not happen, because there is nothing "backing up" credits that can either devalue them or over value them and most importantly, there is an infinite amount. Any player could grind a few million credits in a week, they only need the time to play non stop and the skill to do all the available content.

[scottythebod]

Right here little buddy...

Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs

No, that's not what I meant. The guy I quoted assumed the only impact with the cost of 2.9 would be a slight slow down on the GTN. I don't care about the GTN at all, I care about the guilds being gated from the guild content in 2.9. Those players will have less devotion to SWTOR because their subs aren't buying them the same content others are.

 

"BECAUSE THEIR SUBS ARENT BUYING THEM THE SAME CONTENT OTHERS ARE".

"They are entitled to the same content everyone else is without working for it. " is pretty much what your quote says.

 

They do pay for the same content and they have to work for it just like everyone else.

So then why doesn't my subscription buy me access to Oricon or any lvl 55 content? Do I get a discount?

[ivanhedgehog]

So then why doesn't my subscription buy me access to Oricon or any lvl 55 content? Do I get a discount?

 

you have access to it at no further cost. but then you would complain that you have no access to imp side because you just have pub toons. which would tell people quite a bit about you and your method of debate

[LordArtemis]

A crash, literally can not happen, because there is nothing "backing up" credits that can either devalue them or over value them and most importantly, there is an infinite amount. Any player could grind a few million credits in a week, they only need the time to play non stop and the skill to do all the available content.

 

Well, in a few games there have been some "corrections" if you want to call it that....times when the economy deflated quickly, money dried up and prices plummeted as a result. Others where duping or easy credits came about and the credit supply was so high prices skyrocketed.

 

SWG is a good example of this. But in that case the economy was entirely player driven, so it was more prone to fluctuations based on game changes.

[Uvirith]

deleted Edited August 12, 2014 by Uvirith

[Magvay]

All i hear is blablabla i can't afford that. Really i will not tell how much credits i have, but i will buy all Strongholds and unlocks instantly at release date and still will have big amount of credits left. Why i'm talking about this, that is not show off, that is "if you want something, you do something". Economic will be the same, who can't pay for items will either don't bother or will go and farm credits. Players spend insane amount of credits each day on every kind of vanity crap from CM, augments, kits, and still economy is fine. Also why you think so much players will buy everything at day 1? They won't, they can unlock it when they want, none forcing them to buy everything at the start. Edited August 12, 2014 by Magvay

[Karkais]

I dont think I can be bothered to read the topic post in its epic entirety. The reason is because most of it is off the mark. I considered calling it a troll because of its massive size and how wrong it is in essence.

 

I don't believe there will be a crash. SWTOR does not have a real economy. It does not resemble Eve online.

Issues:

- You don't actually need credits to play this game, so there is no need for people to stop playing even if their credits account was suddenly zero-ed, which it wont be. The missions give such rewards that they cover the repair costs and then some. There is no need to pay credits to enter a given FP or raid or whatever.

 

- People are smart enough to not spend all their credits. I donated maybe third of one of my characters money to my guilds guildship fund. From there on I donate only the surplus. I keep playing as if nothing happened.

 

- You don't need anything crafted by other players to play this game or any of its content. If GTM was suddenly out of order, the game would keep running.

 

I think the topic post was a massive exaggeration. There may be slight deflation in GTM prices (which is good) but thats it.

 

ps. If somebody has an issue of being locked out of the one FP that the guild ships give or whatever, join a guild that has unlocked it, problem solved.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Karkais

[BrianDavion]

if tyhere is a crash I suspect BW;s over all opinion is "this is good" GTN prices right now are a bit on the high side.

[Rafaman]

Well... I'm hiding my credits under my Stronghold mattress... we will have mattresses right? Maybe we can come up with a new form of currency? How about whine-nuts.

[Orizuru]

I don't think the worries TUXs expressed for new players are too far off base. I'm not convinced that the entry price for guildships should be lowered, but I do share some of his concerns for players that are fairly new to the game.

 

I was a player who took a long hiatus from the game. I was away from the game for 2 years until about 2 or 3 months ago. However, I know how to play the market and was able to get back to level cap and have a healthy amount of credits in only a few weeks, but I was only able to do so because I had a level 50 Jugg in what was considered the best gear in the game 2 years ago. I had no trouble getting straight into new content and was wearing mostly all 162+ gear in no time at all.

 

New players though will need a lot more time to achieve this. My concerns though, are more in regard to the guilds that haven't even formed yet. To a group of fairly new players that are ranging in level from 10-40, even if there are 30+ active members in the guild, its going to take them a lot of time to farm 50 million credits. Its not impossible, but it is intimidating to players who aren't in endgame content running Ops and dailies with maxed out crew skills.

 

In World of Warcraft they added a guild leveling system that included achievements and rewards that were desirable to new players, especially while leveling. This created a system where new players stopped forming their own guilds because even the ones who knew very little about the game or MMOs in general quickly learned they could progress much more quickly in a well-established guild where the guild members had already done the weeks to months long process of leveling the guild to max and unlocking all the perks. New guilds stopped forming. Eventually, even old players became reluctant to form new guilds because nobody could recruit players that were willing to invest the time and energy needed to level the guild when they could just join an existing guild that was already leveled to max.

 

I see this happening in SWTOR. Newly formed guilds will likely wither and crumble under the pressure of having to farm the credits to catch up with the already established guilds who have already bought a flagship. Small guilds will begin merging together to pool resources in attempts to catch up with the more progressed guilds. Even after multiple merges, many of these guilds will ultimately fail due to loss of active members through attrition as they leave for other guilds that a more progressed.

 

This creates a stagnant environment for new players where there is a lot of pressure to join progressed guilds. While I know there are many guilds that will meet the progression needs of these players, I just don't think there will be many new guilds forming that last long enough to ever catch up with other guilds on their server. This creates a game where new players do not always feel very welcome, and this can lead to a major drop in the number of players because any MMO requires a steady influx of new players to offset the population losses of players that quit playing.

 

I saw WoW go through this already. In fact, that was probably one of the reasons I quit playing WoW. Implementing a guild progression system changed the game dramatically for anyone who wanted to start their own guild. Recruiting was a significant challenge for them because even the new players that didn't know how guild progression worked would usually end up leaving the guild in favor of a more progressed guild once they learned the ins and outs of guild progression, and WoW even had a mechanic to slow down "guild hopping" by dropping your guild reputation to a base level every time you leave a guild, then they tied that guild reputation to being able to access and use several of the perks that came with being in a fully progressed guild.

 

I don't think it's entirely fair to say that the credit gate is a an ok thing simply because there will be plenty of guilds with guildships ready to recruit the new players. I'm sure this will be true, but it ignores the problem that there won't be as many new guilds forming. And it also ignores the fact that new players who want to start a new guild will be hard pressed to find recruits that stick around and help contribute to progressing a new guild unless those recruits have strong ties to the guild or guild leaders, and those kinds of ties usually only come from knowing each other in real life, or through spending a great number of hours playing together in a guild. The situations where a newly formed guild will have what is needed to progress and farm the credits needed for a guildship will likely be in the minority.

[Drockter]

Just like in WoW and Lotro guilds will continue to recruit they will continue to ban together but only now they will have goals and objectives they are striving for. How any intelligent person can think that is a bad thing is mind blowing.

 

I'll add STO to that list with its grind fest of a fleet base/holdings. The epic rants of the death of small guilds were numerous... There were calls about it being unfair to new players (this much was true, since their holdings unlocked the end game equipment... if you weren't in a guild with a fully upgraded starbase and holdings, you WERE at a disadvantage (Stats were lower)) but thats a different story.

 

While I believe the base cost of the ship needs to come down (not going to rehash the argument again). The calls of death throws to small guilds is a bit dramatic. Will small guilds lose players? Maybe... but those players are the ones that are there only for your bonus xp or rep... if that... If you have a small guild that isnt at 10/10 bonus... (which some could argue, you aren't really small if you reached that since it takes 50 accounts).

 

I don't think you are going to lose the close knit communities... and newly formed guilds will know what lies ahead... and will plan accordingly.

[branmakmuffin]

OP cannot possibly be serious. Ergo, must be joking or trolling.

[Shevaresh]

I don't think the worries TUXs expressed for new players are too far off base. I'm not convinced that the entry price for guildships should be lowered, but I do share some of his concerns for players that are fairly new to the game.

 

I was a player who took a long hiatus from the game. I was away from the game for 2 years until about 2 or 3 months ago. However, I know how to play the market and was able to get back to level cap and have a healthy amount of credits in only a few weeks, but I was only able to do so because I had a level 50 Jugg in what was considered the best gear in the game 2 years ago. I had no trouble getting straight into new content and was wearing mostly all 162+ gear in no time at all.

 

New players though will need a lot more time to achieve this. My concerns though, are more in regard to the guilds that haven't even formed yet. To a group of fairly new players that are ranging in level from 10-40, even if there are 30+ active members in the guild, its going to take them a lot of time to farm 50 million credits. Its not impossible, but it is intimidating to players who aren't in endgame content running Ops and dailies with maxed out crew skills.

 

In World of Warcraft they added a guild leveling system that included achievements and rewards that were desirable to new players, especially while leveling. This created a system where new players stopped forming their own guilds because even the ones who knew very little about the game or MMOs in general quickly learned they could progress much more quickly in a well-established guild where the guild members had already done the weeks to months long process of leveling the guild to max and unlocking all the perks. New guilds stopped forming. Eventually, even old players became reluctant to form new guilds because nobody could recruit players that were willing to invest the time and energy needed to level the guild when they could just join an existing guild that was already leveled to max.

 

I see this happening in SWTOR. Newly formed guilds will likely wither and crumble under the pressure of having to farm the credits to catch up with the already established guilds who have already bought a flagship. Small guilds will begin merging together to pool resources in attempts to catch up with the more progressed guilds. Even after multiple merges, many of these guilds will ultimately fail due to loss of active members through attrition as they leave for other guilds that a more progressed.

 

This creates a stagnant environment for new players where there is a lot of pressure to join progressed guilds. While I know there are many guilds that will meet the progression needs of these players, I just don't think there will be many new guilds forming that last long enough to ever catch up with other guilds on their server. This creates a game where new players do not always feel very welcome, and this can lead to a major drop in the number of players because any MMO requires a steady influx of new players to offset the population losses of players that quit playing.

 

I saw WoW go through this already. In fact, that was probably one of the reasons I quit playing WoW. Implementing a guild progression system changed the game dramatically for anyone who wanted to start their own guild. Recruiting was a significant challenge for them because even the new players that didn't know how guild progression worked would usually end up leaving the guild in favor of a more progressed guild once they learned the ins and outs of guild progression, and WoW even had a mechanic to slow down "guild hopping" by dropping your guild reputation to a base level every time you leave a guild, then they tied that guild reputation to being able to access and use several of the perks that came with being in a fully progressed guild.

 

I don't think it's entirely fair to say that the credit gate is a an ok thing simply because there will be plenty of guilds with guildships ready to recruit the new players. I'm sure this will be true, but it ignores the problem that there won't be as many new guilds forming. And it also ignores the fact that new players who want to start a new guild will be hard pressed to find recruits that stick around and help contribute to progressing a new guild unless those recruits have strong ties to the guild or guild leaders, and those kinds of ties usually only come from knowing each other in real life, or through spending a great number of hours playing together in a guild. The situations where a newly formed guild will have what is needed to progress and farm the credits needed for a guildship will likely be in the minority.

 

Nice to see a post that doesn't just try to debase the debate (pro or con) with various insults, but actual try to argue his/hers point of view. A rare treat

 

However I do disagree with some of the elements in your otherwise well structured presentation.

 

1) Guildship is a -optional- feature designed to give guilds meaningful content to do with eachother, that doesn't evolve around operations or pvp exclusively. In short, noone (guild or person) is required to partake in this content, anymore than they would be required to do operations, pvp or loitering on the fleet, if that's their fancy. Nor will the game post-2.9 become exclusively focused on Conquest-content, which might otherwise have made the content "de-facto mandatory". Operations, flashpoints, pvp, strongholds, quests, dailies and so on, will continue to be developed and playable -in their own right- for people that isn't taking part in the Conquest, for whatever reason. In essence, Guildships will play the exact same role as simply a feature of the game, just as GSF does already, i.e. something the player/guild can do, if they want to partake in it.

 

2) The guildship is a sign of accomplishment for guilds, something for them to be proud of having achieved to be able to do things together. The content that it gives access to is designed to be something for guilds to achieve together. In short: it's content catered to guilds, not individual players. Individual players has plenty of feature to engage in already, and even more if they desire just to play with a few friends. This content is a feature for people who wants more the enjoyment of playing together with more people than just a few close friends and make meaningful achievements together. And as noted above, not playing this perticular feature does not diminish the players options for other content in generel. Its simply a social accomplishment that signifys a dedication to eachother as a community

 

3) New players: They do already have a consirable amount of content catered specifically to them. The entire leveling process and the engrossing stories they have, viable pvp from level 10, flashpoints and so on. Things that they can do solo and in their own time. If they wish access to a the guildship content aswell, then yes they will need to group up with other people to get the credit required to even begin down this part -aswell-. But how does that diminish the value of guildship as content, rather than actually increase it? A large part of the joy of MMOs is the fact that you do need to work together with others to achieve allot of the things within the game. It's why it's called an MMO, rather than a single-player onlinegame.

 

4) Guild benefits in WoW and a single (guild) feature in SWToR is a rather "stretched" comparison. In WoW it wasn't just a single feature of the gameplay, but something that you'd benefit from in every single part of the game. Guilds in SWToR will still have access to the leveling and reputation bonusses once 2.9 hits, which would be the more accurate comparison.

 

While guilds will undoubtably strive for getting access to guildships and the derived content, why would it impact on the forming of new guilds, as having the various bonusses in WoW(not really) did (either)? (Loads of guilds were still formed, and unless you aimed exclusively at being a "leveling" guild before getting all the bonusses, your options for recruiting weren't really that effected) The amount it cost to acquire a guildship isn't exactly game-breaking unless you're, per your example, only populated by lvl 10-40's, in which case you wouldn't really be able to take advantage of the Conquest content either. Guilds will still have every oppotunity to keep on existing and functioning while they save up for a guildship to eventually get access to that content aswell. If a given player would join your guild solely for the guildship, then that person is truely missing the point of the content entirely, so why would such a player suddenly become desirable to guilds? Why would it suddenly become markedly different to create new guilds? Even now people will leave guilds for greener pastures/disagrements/for the cookies and so on, this is simply a fact of (MMO) life. Raiding guilds compete with eachother (amongst other things) on progress/pvp on pvp/social on social factors and so on. Guildships will just be another factor in the mix, not the ultimate reason for people choosing which guild to be their "online-home" if you will.

[Sabatus]

New players though will need a lot more time to achieve this. My concerns though, are more in regard to the guilds that haven't even formed yet. To a group of fairly new players that are ranging in level from 10-40, even if there are 30+ active members in the guild, its going to take them a lot of time to farm 50 million credits. Its not impossible, but it is intimidating to players who aren't in endgame content running Ops and dailies with maxed out crew skills.

 

The cost in credits is actually irrelevant compared to the bigger issue of unlocks and conquesting. Everyone can grind credits at a predictable rate and noone has a clear disproportionate advantage in it (it is basically time = money earned). Unlocking the ships however is tuned hugely against smaller and new guilds.

 

Let's take 3 theoretical guilds (to simplify matters, lets go with a more common PvE theme):

Guild A, an existing huge guild with an average of 100 players online.

Guild B, an existing small guild of mates, with an average of 8 players around.

Guild C, a newly founded guild X months (ASTPL or arbitrarily selected time post launch) from the launch of 2.9, also an average of 8 players around.

 

Guild A will storm through conquests purely based on their numbers, gathering encryptions and unlocking ship rooms. If they hit the top10 consistently, we can expect them to unlock 3 rooms per week on average (assuming 150 chars hitting the goal or 1.5x average players). They are decorating them, as well as their guild stronghold and their members unlock and decorate their strongholds. At the moment of ASTPL they have a fully unlocked ship, guild stronghold, loads of strongholds and thus a stronghold points bonus of up to 2.5x (100% player strongholds, 25% guild ship, 25% guild stronghold).

 

Guild B will put whatever time they can in conquests as well. They will never hit top10 every week unless the number of planets in play is consistently huge and they are lucky with their picks, but let us give them a ratio of 1 out of 3 just to play with and feel good about. Thus, they earn about 12 encryptions per top10 hit or an average of 16 per month, so over 3 months per room. The likelyhood of hitting top10 will start to go down as larger guilds gain more bonuses and higher scores in conquests. At ASTPL they will at best have a bonus of 1.5x, since they will progress slower on their personal stronghold tracks as well, as conquests require a larger per-person commitment.

 

Guild C is formed at ASPTL. They are relatively new to the game, so they won't know all the credit earning tricks or the content grind tricks. They will first have to grind the 50m credits for the ship and then they will discover they have been locked out of conquests since established guilds can put in way less effort to achieve the same score or if they put in the same effort, the new guild gets crushed beyond belief. New guild cheers for the fun and enjoyment they gain and will forever sub to TOR. Right?

[tdmaha]

Could you at least try to discuss this like a mature adult, or are the baseless insults the only vernacular you are capable of mustering. I don't have an issue with people having different opinions from my own, but it would be nice if we could discuss them as adults instead of this childish banter you are throwing around. The Ad Hominem attacks are simply not necessary, and are in fact, a form of trolling. If you wish to continue treating those who disagree with you like the village idiot then please let me know so I can just add you to my ignore list and spend my time discussing these issues with the adults who can control their baser impulses.

 

Mature? You pretty much said new player will quit playing because they are weak, not dedicated enough to pursue goals set before them? And you are calling me out? In no other game has adding guild housing caused new players to stay away. In no other game has adding guild housing killed the small guild. I'm sorry but facts disprove your assessment.

 

WoW had their highest population after guild achievments were added. If what you said was remotely accurate it would have been the opposite. Now I am not saying people joined WoW for that just saying they didn't leave WoW like you said they did. Now if you don't like taking in facts and having your incorrect comments corrected by facts then yes please add me to your list.

[Orizuru]

Nice to see a post that doesn't just try to debase the debate (pro or con) with various insults, but actual try to argue his/hers point of view. A rare treat

 

However I do disagree with some of the elements in your otherwise well structured presentation.

 

1) Guildship is a -optional- feature designed to give guilds meaningful content to do with eachother, that doesn't evolve around operations or pvp exclusively. In short, noone (guild or person) is required to partake in this content, anymore than they would be required to do operations, pvp or loitering on the fleet, if that's their fancy. Nor will the game post-2.9 become exclusively focused on Conquest-content, which might otherwise have made the content "de-facto mandatory". Operations, flashpoints, pvp, strongholds, quests, dailies and so on, will continue to be developed and playable -in their own right- for people that isn't taking part in the Conquest, for whatever reason. In essence, Guildships will play the exact same role as simply a feature of the game, just as GSF does already, i.e. something the player/guild can do, if they want to partake in it.

 

2) The guildship is a sign of accomplishment for guilds, something for them to be proud of having achieved to be able to do things together. The content that it gives access to is designed to be something for guilds to achieve together. In short: it's content catered to guilds, not individual players. Individual players has plenty of feature to engage in already, and even more if they desire just to play with a few friends. This content is a feature for people who wants more the enjoyment of playing together with more people than just a few close friends and make meaningful achievements together. And as noted above, not playing this perticular feature does not diminish the players options for other content in generel. Its simply a social accomplishment that signifys a dedication to eachother as a community

 

3) New players: They do already have a consirable amount of content catered specifically to them. The entire leveling process and the engrossing stories they have, viable pvp from level 10, flashpoints and so on. Things that they can do solo and in their own time. If they wish access to a the guildship content aswell, then yes they will need to group up with other people to get the credit required to even begin down this part -aswell-. But how does that diminish the value of guildship as content, rather than actually increase it? A large part of the joy of MMOs is the fact that you do need to work together with others to achieve allot of the things within the game. It's why it's called an MMO, rather than a single-player onlinegame.

 

4) Guild benefits in WoW and a single (guild) feature in SWToR is a rather "stretched" comparison. In WoW it wasn't just a single feature of the gameplay, but something that you'd benefit from in every single part of the game. Guilds in SWToR will still have access to the leveling and reputation bonusses once 2.9 hits, which would be the more accurate comparison.

 

While guilds will undoubtably strive for getting access to guildships and the derived content, why would it impact on the forming of new guilds, as having the various bonusses in WoW(not really) did (either)? (Loads of guilds were still formed, and unless you aimed exclusively at being a "leveling" guild before getting all the bonusses, your options for recruiting weren't really that effected) The amount it cost to acquire a guildship isn't exactly game-breaking unless you're, per your example, only populated by lvl 10-40's, in which case you wouldn't really be able to take advantage of the Conquest content either. Guilds will still have every oppotunity to keep on existing and functioning while they save up for a guildship to eventually get access to that content aswell. If a given player would join your guild solely for the guildship, then that person is truely missing the point of the content entirely, so why would such a player suddenly become desirable to guilds? Why would it suddenly become markedly different to create new guilds? Even now people will leave guilds for greener pastures/disagrements/for the cookies and so on, this is simply a fact of (MMO) life. Raiding guilds compete with eachother (amongst other things) on progress/pvp on pvp/social on social factors and so on. Guildships will just be another factor in the mix, not the ultimate reason for people choosing which guild to be their "online-home" if you will.

 

Many of the reasons you listed are why I'm not sure that the price should be reduced. I want the achievement to be meaningful, and if the bar is set too low, then the rewards aren't in line with the effort required.

 

I don't think there is a way to measure the impact these features that revolve around guild progression have upon new players, but I feel to deny that they have any impact is akin to burying my head in the sand. The impact could be minimal as you suggest, or it could be larger as TUXs suggests. In the end, only time will tell.

 

Honestly, the truth most likely lies somewhere in between the two sides of this debate. How heavily it leans one way or the other is largely indeterminable, which is why I think the price should remain at 50 million. However, given how discouraging it can be for new players who form new guilds and are trying to catch up with established guilds so they can compete with them for new recruits more successfully, I think the price should be reevaluated at regular intervals. BioWare has access to a ton more data than we do as players. As players we are largely limited in perspective to our own experiences, and as individuals and even as collectives of individuals (ie... guilds), our experiences are biased. If BioWare looks at the data though sees that a majority of newly formed guilds are disbanded at a rate that is significantly larger than the same statistics from before the guildships were released, I think this would indicate that there may be a need for an adjustment to the introductory price, but the reward should still be representative of the effort require to achieve it.

 

I'm largely on the fence still about this issue. I just felt that TUXs was being given a hard way to go for having legitimate concerns and thought I'd share a few thoughts that could provide a little more perspective.

 

And thank you as well for knowing how to discuss differences of opinion openly and earnestly in a constructive manner! It is quite refreshing.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Orizuru

[JouerTue]

i found the topic very interesting and i'll take a look at the gtn and hear the rumors..i'm seeing prices dropping already, but it could be summer anyway..

[Orizuru]

You pretty much said new player will quit playing because they are weak, not dedicated enough to pursue goals set before them?.

 

Your words, not mine. The only place I even used the word quit was in reference to me quitting WoW and prior to that I made a comment about all MMOs needing new players to offset the losses of players who quit. I made no attempt to even infer that anyone might quit SWTOR.

 

In no other game has adding guild housing caused new players to stay away. In no other game has adding guild housing killed the small guild. I'm sorry but facts disprove your assessment.

 

Opinions make unreliable facts. And once again, I said nothing about small guilds. I stated that newly formed guilds will be competing with established guilds to recruit new members and those without a guildship will struggle to keep members who want one. Players tend to take the path of least resistance towards a goal they want to achieve. I believe more players will join guilds that already have a guildship than will be willing to help a guild they have little ties to farm the credits to buy one.

 

WoW had their highest population after guild achievments were added. If what you said was remotely accurate it would have been the opposite. Now I am not saying people joined WoW for that just saying they didn't leave WoW like you said they did. Now if you don't like taking in facts and having your incorrect comments corrected by facts then yes please add me to your list.

 

I think you are jumping to conclusions. I didn't say anything about game population in regards to guild achievements. I only said it contributed to why I left the game. I wasn't trying to imply that they had an effect on subscriptions, instead I was stating that it had an impact upon guilds. Many guilds merged to increase their ability to farm achievements because a system was created where the number of resources a guild had became relevant to the rate at which perks could be unlocked. I did make a mistake and stated that new guilds stopped forming, and I admit that was hyperbole. However, the fact remains that the formation of a new guild became a more daunting experience after guild achievements were released. Any new guild that tried to form had a more difficult time recruiting than before the guild achievements because most players wanted the perks and would rather join a guild that already had them as opposed to helping a newly formed guild that they have no ties with to unlock the perks. New guilds were still able to form and many of them were successful, but I think there were more failed attempts than successful from what I saw during that period of time within the game. The fact that you and your friends managed to create a new guild at that time was possibly more of an anomaly than a norm, but there really isn't a way to prove that statement one way or another with much accuracy.

[TUXs]

Many of the reasons you listed are why I'm not sure that the price should be reduced. I want the achievement to be meaningful, and if the bar is set too low, then the rewards aren't in line with the effort required.

 

I don't think there is a way to measure the impact these features that revolve around guild progression have upon new players, but I feel to deny that they have any impact is akin to burying my head in the sand. The impact could be minimal as you suggest, or it could be nominal as TUXs suggests. In the end, only time will tell.

 

Honestly, the truth most likely lies somewhere in between the two sides of this debate. How heavily it leans one way or the other is largely indeterminable, which is why I think the price should remain at 50 million. However, given how discouraging it can be for new players who form new guilds and are trying to catch up with established guilds so they can compete with them for new recruits more successfully, I think the price should be reevaluated at regular intervals. BioWare has access to a ton more data than we do as players. As players we are largely limited in perspective to our own experiences, and as individuals and even as collectives of individuals (ie... guilds), our experiences are biased. If BioWare looks at the data though sees that a majority of newly formed guilds are disbanded at a rate that is significantly larger than the same statistics from before the guildships were released, I think this would indicate that there may be a need for an adjustment to the introductory price, but the reward should still be representative of the effort require to achieve it.

 

I'm largely on the fence still about this issue. I just felt that TUXs was being given a hard way to go for having legitimate concerns and thought I'd share a few thoughts that could provide a little more perspective.

 

And thank you as well for knowing how to discuss differences of opinion openly and earnestly in a constructive manner! It is quite refreshing.

First - thank you for taking the time to understand my concerns. It's far more than most people do and I genuinely appreciate that you did.

 

I understand credits are cake for some players to earn, they aren't for others. While we all have the same means to earn them, some players are simply more dedicated, while others are far more casual. SWTOR is a casual game, easy to step away from, easy to return to, easy to gear up...making credits though, especially making 50 million, isn't a "casual" task.

 

My fear is that the 50 million credit entry point will be too much of a barrier (mental or real) for too many guilds (old and new), which will result in less players participating in Galactic Conquests and less content for players unwilling/unable to come up with 50 million credits.

 

This past year, SWTOR has been starved of content. Releasing this new update with the first piece of GUILD content ever, but locking it behind a 50 million credit barrier, will rob many groups of players of this much needed content. There is NOTHING good about that imo. There's nothing positive for this game, by having the entry point so high, that many players won't have access to it..."then they can do personal conquests", not the same. Guild content is GOOD content and NEEDED content...the entry point is just too high. Keep the overall cost the same, but the entry should be more attainable.

[tdmaha]

First - thank you for taking the time to understand my concerns. It's far more than most people do and I genuinely appreciate that you did.

 

I understand credits are cake for some players to earn, they aren't for others. While we all have the same means to earn them, some players are simply more dedicated, while others are far more casual. SWTOR is a casual game, easy to step away from, easy to return to, easy to gear up...making credits though, especially making 50 million, isn't a "casual" task.

 

My fear is that the 50 million credit entry point will be too much of a barrier (mental or real) for too many guilds (old and new), which will result in less players participating in Galactic Conquests and less content for players unwilling/unable to come up with 50 million credits.

 

This past year, SWTOR has been starved of content. Releasing this new update with the first piece of GUILD content ever, but locking it behind a 50 million credit barrier, will rob many groups of players of this much needed content. There is NOTHING good about that imo. There's nothing positive for this game, by having the entry point so high, that many players won't have access to it..."then they can do personal conquests", not the same. Guild content is GOOD content and NEEDED content...the entry point is just too high. Keep the overall cost the same, but the entry should be more attainable.

 

Do you have any links, facts, stats, historical data or anything to back up any of this? Its very concerning that you feel the "majority" of players are so weak, not dedicated enough, or lazy to accomplish a goal that is set out in front of them.

 

So nothing good you say? Well I guess I have a more positive belief in the players, I think this will bring guilds smaller and larger together, they have their eyes set on a goal and will strive to accomplish this. What is my experience you say? Well I am I'm a 6 person guild in WoW and we are level 25. I am in a smaller Swtor guild 20 people have added to the fund and we are over 50mill credits.

 

Take any sport tens from high-school to pros they have goals at the beginning of the season they set those goals high and strive to accomplish them. Do the majority look at those goals and say "of that is just too high I think we better just quit"? No they don't and again it's very concerning someone who has as many followers as you would feel this way about "the majority" or "many"

[Sabatus]

Take any sport tens from high-school to pros they have goals at the beginning of the season they set those goals high and strive to accomplish them.

 

This isn't an alternative to competitive sports. This is an alternative to going to see a movie.

[TUXs]

Do you have any links, facts, stats, historical data or anything to back up any of this? Its very concerning that you feel the "majority" of players are so weak, not dedicated enough, or lazy to accomplish a goal that is set out in front of them.

Those are your words, not mine. Stop attributing them to me. "Casual" is not a bad thing, it's a common thing. This is a casual game.

 

So nothing good you say? Well I guess I have a more positive belief in the players, I think this will bring guilds smaller and larger together, they have their eyes set on a goal and will strive to accomplish this.

I have plenty good to say. And yes, this will certainly inspire some guilds, not others.

 

What is my experience you say? Well I am I'm a 6 person guild in WoW and we are level 25. I am in a smaller Swtor guild 20 people have added to the fund and we are over 50mill credits.

I didn't ask and I don't care...especially about w0w.

 

Take any sport tens from high-school to pros they have goals at the beginning of the season they set those goals high and strive to accomplish them. Do the majority look at those goals and say "of that is just too high I think we better just quit"? No they don't and again it's very concerning someone who has as many followers as you would feel this way about "the majority" or "many"

This is a video game, not competitive sports. SWTOR is a casual friendly game, 50 million credits isn't casual.

[Elminster_cs]

And thats why I will buy some really cheap stuffs to selle them next year!

 

Well I mostly agree with the OP, but remind that a new expansion is at door and they HAVE to do this uber credit sink before it comes out. This is why I think the next expansion will be more bigger than the Makeb one...

Edited August 12, 2014 by Elminster_cs

[Joesixxpack]

Do you have any links, facts, stats, historical data or anything to back up any of this? Its very concerning that you feel the "majority" of players are so weak, not dedicated enough, or lazy to accomplish a goal that is set out in front of them.

 

So nothing good you say? Well I guess I have a more positive belief in the players, I think this will bring guilds smaller and larger together, they have their eyes set on a goal and will strive to accomplish this. What is my experience you say? Well I am I'm a 6 person guild in WoW and we are level 25. I am in a smaller Swtor guild 20 people have added to the fund and we are over 50mill credits.

 

Take any sport tens from high-school to pros they have goals at the beginning of the season they set those goals high and strive to accomplish them. Do the majority look at those goals and say "of that is just too high I think we better just quit"? No they don't and again it's very concerning someone who has as many followers as you would feel this way about "the majority" or "many"

 

I understand, I get a chubby from TUX's posts too.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Joesixxpack

[tdmaha]

Those are your words, not mine. Stop attributing them to me. "Casual" is not a bad thing, it's a common thing. This is a casual game.

 

 

I have plenty good to say. And yes, this will certainly inspire some guilds, not others.

 

 

I didn't ask and I don't care...especially about w0w.

 

 

This is a video game, not competitive sports. SWTOR is a casual friendly game, 50 million credits isn't casual.

 

See the issue is and even your followers disagreed with you is that you keep saying "majority" "many" well the truth is the "majority" "many" don't feel the same burden you do. Smaller guilds have already proven that 50mill credits is a very achievable goal. And having someone with your reputation continue to spam the forums stating it's an impossible task is only hurting the game and future players? is that what you are trying to accomplish?

 

As for the sports team analogy I'm not comparing sports with video games I was comparing being on a team and a guild that both have goals that they are striving to accomplish.