Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Beniboybling]

Anyway Aurbere I'd be interested to here a counter-strategy/strategy of your own.

[Aurbere]

Anyway Aurbere I'd be interested to here a counter-strategy/strategy of your own.

 

I'll think it over while I eat dinner.

[Aurbere]

Concerning boarding parties, I find the effectiveness of these parties to be minimal. Beni suggested using several units from each individual CIC ground force. However, as I pointed out, these droids are noted as very expensive and not easy to produce. Indeed, the CB3s are Cortosis-made, not an easy thing to get a hold of and make into a droid. If they do go for boarding parties, they will likely use Commando Droids only, and in small numbers. The CIC does not have the numbers to dedicate to boarding parties because they are heavily outnumbered and outgunned on the ground.

 

We should also remember that Kilran is very familiar with the use of boarding parties, heck, they seem pretty common during the Great War, Cold War, and Second Great War for both sides. So if he sees those transports headed for his ships, he'll find a way to deal with them. Also, the marines on the Sith Empire's vessels were considered highly-skilled, so they will be able to put up a defense if and when they are alerted to incoming boarding parties.

 

Moving on to the Fist's strategy.

 

Grand Moff Kilran is probably the only real tactician in space, and he is a very good tactician. If anybody read my navy's rundown, they will have seen that Kilran masterminded some of the Empire's most brutal victories. He was one of the Empire's best tacticians. So I think that Kilran being here will give a very big edge to the Fist.

 

As far as a strategy goes, Kilran will likely use his bigger ships as an advance for to destroy the enemy's anti-fighter platforms. The Fist has a clear firepower advantage in the Harrowers, and a ship class specifically tailored to dealing with pirate vessels. These ships can easily deal with the smaller vessels, which will give the Fist a greater advantage in the fighter game.

 

There is also the Fury-class, which packs massive amounts of firepower in a sleek, durable frame. These will be invaluable in fighter dominance and even taking out the CIC's light cruisers.

 

Concerning the Stinger and Virago. Powerful ships, yes, I agree. However, I feel the Fury-classes and Ventress can take them out. The Furys have the firepower, and Ventress has the skill to hold her own. Yes, they can't take out capital ships, but they have the firepower where it counts.

 

Concerning Broadsides, I agree that they are effective. However, once the battle is joined, their effectiveness will be severely limited. They can't really affect the fighter battle for risk of damaging or destroying allied vessels, and the bigger ships will be too clustered (ally and enemy) for risk of damaging enemy vessels.

 

All in all, I feel the assumed fighter numbers superiority, massive tactical advantage, and major firepower advantage will make this a victory for the Fist of the Empire.

 

Of course that won't stop me from continuing the debate. I just feel that this is a pretty obvious one, but that should be obvious, right?

[Silenceo]

I just wanted to ask this but...

 

Why the hell would the CIC close? It seems commonly accepted and if they didn't have the range advantage it would fit well, but considering they DO have the range advantage with so many Broadsides, with Cruesaders point defense systems to defend them...

 

I just wonder why they would nullify their biggest advantage. Though, I do wonder what 36 Broadsides focusing fire on the Invincible would look like, since it is the only target then that wouldn't be as risky to shoot....

[Aurbere]

I just wanted to ask this but...

 

Why the hell would the CIC close? It seems commonly accepted and if they didn't have the range advantage it would fit well, but considering they DO have the range advantage with so many Broadsides, with Cruesaders point defense systems to defend them...

 

I just wonder why they would nullify their biggest advantage. Though, I do wonder what 36 Broadsides focusing fire on the Invincible would look like, since it is the only target then that wouldn't be as risky to shoot....

 

The Invincible has those thermal shields for defense.

 

If the CIC remains at range, then it gets bombarded at long range by a wave of turbolaser fire.

[Silenceo]

The Invincible has those thermal shields for defense.

 

If the CIC remains at range, then it gets bombarded at long range by a wave of turbolaser fire.

 

Thermal shields that had a long recharge after deflecting small amounts of missiles. Granted, the recharge was likely due to switching between the thermal shields and their own weaponry. That though would indicate it can't do both without them being hampered.

 

Also, where did the Fist get Long Range Turbolasers from? They appeared to have regular Turbolasers that are vastly out ranged by the Broadsides last time I checked.

 

How good is the Fist's point defense systems? If they are weak then it is likely that the CIC could focus fire down multiple enemy vessels before they even get in range.

[Aurbere]

Thermal shields that had a long recharge after deflecting small amounts of missiles. Granted, the recharge was likely due to switching between the thermal shields and their own weaponry. That though would indicate it can't do both without them being hampered.

 

Also, where did the Fist get Long Range Turbolasers from? They appeared to have regular Turbolasers that are vastly out ranged by the Broadsides last time I checked.

 

How good is the Fist's point defense systems? If they are weak then it is likely that the CIC could focus fire down multiple enemy vessels before they even get in range.

 

Focusing a single ship isn't a viable strategy, nor do I think it's possible.

 

Not long range turbolasers, silly. They'll be at 'long range' if the Crusaders hold back.

 

The Gladiators have two point defense cannons each, twice the number that Crusaders have.

[tunewalker]

Just to note again, they are also SLOW... they might be able to hit at range better but they cant stay at long range, they will be closed in on quickly, once there its GG...

 

 

Edit: a plan is only as good as those that carry it out....

Edited August 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Just to note again, they are also SLOW... they might be able to hit at range better but they cant stay at long range, they will be closed in on quickly, once there its GG...

 

 

Edit: a plan is only as good as those that carry it out....

 

What'cha referren' to there, Tune?

[Silenceo]

Focusing a single ship isn't a viable strategy, nor do I think it's possible.

 

Not long range turbolasers, silly. They'll be at 'long range' if the Crusaders hold back.

 

The Gladiators have two point defense cannons each, twice the number that Crusaders have.

 

Unless the ship was the Invincible, I was thinking more along the lines of the Broadsides being organized into groups to consolidate their firepower. As for the Crusaders holding back, that was kinda the idea.

 

As for the point defense system:

 

"Crusaders were known to utilize an advanced point-defense weapon system that allowed the ships to actually shoot down enemy missiles or torpedoes before they damaged friendly ships. This made the corvettes a valuable support addition to a fleet."

 

Not to mention the amount of projectiles the Corvettes will have to deal with is MUCH less than that the Gladiators would have to deal with. I actually doubt the Gladiators could cover the other vessels.

 

Do not forget that these corvettes would also rebuff any attempts for the Fist to send its fighters/bombers to deal with the artillery.

[tunewalker]

What'cha referren' to there, Tune?

 

The edit is refering mostly to the fact that even if you have a good plan if oyu dont have the people or the equipment to carry it out, it wont work. In this case staying at long range is a good plan, but they dont have the speed to carry it out, I know its a bit of stretch for the quote, but if you catch my drift....

 

"a plan is only as good as those that carry it out"

 

From hercules animated series

 

"a hero is only as good as his weapon"

Edited August 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Unless the ship was the Invincible, I was thinking more along the lines of the Broadsides being organized into groups to consolidate their firepower. As for the Crusaders holding back, that was kinda the idea.

 

As for the point defense system:

 

"Crusaders were known to utilize an advanced point-defense weapon system that allowed the ships to actually shoot down enemy missiles or torpedoes before they damaged friendly ships. This made the corvettes a valuable support addition to a fleet."

 

Not to mention the amount of projectiles the Corvettes will have to deal with is MUCH less than that the Gladiators would have to deal with. I actually doubt the Gladiators could cover the other vessels.

 

Do not forget that these corvettes would also rebuff any attempts for the Fist to send its fighters/bombers to deal with the artillery.

 

That's kinda what point defense systems do, not seeing how that makes them advanced.

 

If the Corvettes stay back, they will still be attacked at range by the Harrowers. They still don't have any real way to fight the Harrowers or Gladiators.

 

Regarding missiles, there are 18 Gladiators with two point defense cannons each. There are 36 Broadsides. That means that the Gladiators should be able to deal with the enemy missiles sufficiently.

[Aurbere]

The edit is refering mostly to the fact that even if you have a good plan if oyu dont have the people or the equipment to carry it out, it wont work. In this case staying at long range is a good plan, but they dont have the speed to carry it out, I know its a bit of stretch for the quote, but if you catch my drift....

 

"a plan is only as good as those that carry it out"

 

From hercules animated series

 

"a hero is only as good as his weapon"

 

I see. Well, good thing I don't have that problem.

[tausra]

Considering the opposing fleet are all Pirates... What are the chances of Count Dooku, Darth Tyrannus, simply buying off the smaller fighters? Rycus's nature almost insists on him bragging about his prowess, which will scare the pirates. Combine the intimidation with the bribe, and I would wager that dozens of Pirates change teams. The Intelligence Agency would add a whole other level to the proceedings. The Fist would potentially know exactly how much the Pirate Fleet is being paid, and how much it would take to lure them away.

[Canino]

I'm going to be out for the most part tomorrow, so if someone wants to hold down the fort, that'd be great.

 

Oh, and Silenceo, I'll post my response to Warren now. I've had it typed but had to leave before I posted it.

[Aurbere]

Considering the opposing fleet are all Pirates... What are the chances of Count Dooku, Darth Tyrannus, simply buying off the smaller fighters? Rycus's nature almost insists on him bragging about his prowess, which will scare the pirates. Combine the intimidation with the bribe, and I would wager that dozens of Pirates change teams. The Intelligence Agency would add a whole other level to the proceedings. The Fist would potentially know exactly how much the Pirate Fleet is being paid, and how much it would take to lure them away.

 

Even though Dooku is one of the richest men in the galaxy, Xizor's pockets are a bit deeper.

 

But good points about intimidation and Intelligence.

[Canino]

Considering the opposing fleet are all Pirates... What are the chances of Count Dooku, Darth Tyrannus, simply buying off the smaller fighters? Rycus's nature almost insists on him bragging about his prowess, which will scare the pirates. Combine the intimidation with the bribe, and I would wager that dozens of Pirates change teams. The Intelligence Agency would add a whole other level to the proceedings. The Fist would potentially know exactly how much the Pirate Fleet is being paid, and how much it would take to lure them away.

Yeah no. When Dooku has the kind of cash Xizor does, that can change.

 

And intimidation? Xizor is only under Vader and Palps.

[Silenceo]

The edit is refering mostly to the fact that even if you have a good plan if oyu dont have the people or the equipment to carry it out, it wont work. In this case staying at long range is a good plan, but they dont have the speed to carry it out, I know its a bit of stretch for the quote, but if you catch my drift.

 

This is not a complicated plan though Tune. Nor is it at all that different from usual Black Sun tactics, which are who the navy officers are.

 

How I see it going:

 

Commander: "Open fire with the Broadside cruisers, have the rest of the fleet form up in defensive formation."

 

*A few minutes later*

 

Technician: "Sir, they appear to be returning fire, but at this range our Crusader corvettes should be able to defend us sir."

 

*Commander surveys the field and how much damage is being done.*

 

Commander: "Once they are within turbolaser range, retreat as we have done against the Empire in the past."

 

Technician: "Sir?!"

 

Commander: "If they are unable to exchange with us at long range, and we all know they would decimate us at close range... We must do as we always have done, Technician. We must hit them and run."

 

 

 

The part everyone seems to forget concerning the hit and run tactics, is that they were the go to tactics for Black Sun and Pirate vessels in general. They never really got hold of many if any Broadside class cruisers. Utilizing such tactics that even the most basic Pirate has done, they should prove to be effective. It is not as fancy as using stealth, or using gravity fields to get your fleet in close... It is quite simply. They fire missiles at long range, enemy closes, they retreat into hyperspace. Then they start again.

 

Yes, some will be lost in the retreat, but plenty will be left to start it again at max range to inflict damage. It will not take a great tactical genius to do this, Pirates already have done similar tactics against the Galactic Empire. Except they have Broadside Class cruisers en masse for once.

[tunewalker]

I see. Well, good thing I don't have that problem.

 

Take it further, one of the main ways to keep the slower craft safe was to use other craft either smaller or larger, but either way more robust to keep the fleet busy so they wouldnt be closed on.

 

These are pirates. They are going to ditch the first moment it doesnt look favorable for them. They dont attack targets more well armed then them, ever. They attack targets they believe they have the advantage over. No one here is going to bite the bullet for their comrades.

[Aurbere]

The part everyone seems to forget concerning the hit and run tactics, is that they were the go to tactics for Black Sun and Pirate vessels in general. They never really got hold of many if any Broadside class cruisers. Utilizing such tactics that even the most basic Pirate has done, they should prove to be effective. It is not as fancy as using stealth, or using gravity fields to get your fleet in close... It is quite simply. They fire missiles at long range, enemy closes, they retreat into hyperspace. Then they start again.

 

Yes, some will be lost in the retreat, but plenty will be left to start it again at max range to inflict damage. It will not take a great tactical genius to do this, Pirates already have done similar tactics against the Galactic Empire. Except they have Broadside Class cruisers en masse for once.

 

Good plan, if a fool was commanding the Fist's fleet. Rycus Kilran is no fool. The best military mind in the Sith Empire-an Empire built for war-is no fool.

 

This tactic is not going to work because the CIC doesn't have the firepower to do any real damage to the Fist's fleet. And the Broadsides won't be able to do much damage because the of the Gladiator-classes missile defense systems.

 

Hit and run is just going to delay the inevitable.

[tausra]

Deep pockets are only half the battle, the Fist Fleet is going to be bloody intimidating to look at. Jumping in the Pirates may be steadfast, but how quick will that change after the first few volleys? All the potential money in the world is meaningless when you're dead. We talk about officers defecting, i think there is a very real chance that the Pirate fleet may defect.

[Silenceo]

This tactic is not going to work because the CIC doesn't have the firepower to do any real damage to the Fist's fleet. And the Broadsides won't be able to do much damage because the of the Gladiator-classes missile defense systems.

 

This part right here is where I heavily doubt. Two point defense guns for 18 of your ships, half your fleet, does not a great defensive screen make. It was debated in other matches that many more numbers of point defense systems would be able to hold off or minimize large amoutns of projectiles coming at them. Such as the Vong molten projectiles. Or the first match where it was often discussed when talking Venators.

 

2 point defense batteries (total 10 guns) will barely even cover a section of a ship, let alone its entirety. No chance they can cover other ships as well. At to the fact they are out numbered by how many ships are spewing the missiles, and simply shooting them all down with such light point defenses seems quite unlikely.

 

Side note: The CIC has the same amount of point defenses in its Crusaders, however, theirs are all listed to be "advanced" which indicate more effective. Which will help to make the return missile fire practically zero.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Silenceo

[Canino]

I'd just like to point out before I go to bed (I have to be up early tomorrow) that these boarding craft are heavily armored. And while Kilran may have experience with boarding parties, that won't help the Empire if he's dead via Stinger

 

But seriously, assassination will happen. Xizor knows he can't win in a straight fight, especially if the enemy has a serious tactician. However, Xizor is cunning, patient, and highly intelligent. Use the Stinger to destroy the the Invincible, or send Guri and some C-B3's and it's game over.

 

And boarding parties may use troops, but if the CIC wins, reinforcements will come quickly. As for costs- Xizor can handle it. As can Black Sun.

[Canino]

Deep pockets are only half the battle, the Fist Fleet is going to be bloody intimidating to look at. Jumping in the Pirates may be steadfast, but how quick will that change after the first few volleys? All the potential money in the world is meaningless when you're dead. We talk about officers defecting, i think there is a very real chance that the Pirate fleet may defect.

 

Who can hurt them more? The third most powerful man in the galaxy, the man who talks to Palps on the daily, the man who casually uses biological weapons and who owns the underworld?

 

Or some random Sith?

 

Black Sun spans the entire galaxy defection is meaningless if you can't live. Kill Xizor and nothing happens. Black Sun still lives. Let's not forget that Black Sun had it's own fleet anyway. If they didn't defect, I doubt this would now.

[Aurbere]

This part right here is where I heavily doubt. Two point defense guns for 18 of your ships, half your fleet, does not a great defensive screen make. It was debated in other matches that many more numbers of point defense systems would be able to hold off or minimize large amoutns of projectiles coming at them. Such as the Vong molten projectiles. Or the first match where it was often discussed when talking Venators.

 

2 point defense guns will barely even cover a section of a ship, let alone its entirety. No chance they can cover other ships as well. At to the fact they are out numbered by how many ships are spewing the missiles, and simply shooting them all down with such light point defenses seems quite unlikely.

 

Side note: The CIC has the same amount of point defenses in its Crusaders, however, theirs are all listed to be "advanced" which indicate more effective. Which will help to make the return missile fire practically zero.

 

Two point defense guns on each of them. That's 36, the same number of Broadsides the CIC has. Plus, those diamond missiles don't move very fast. They'll be able to deal with most of the missile fired.

 

Again, that Wookieepedia quote doesn't show anything that indicates them to be advanced. It just says that they do what point defense guns do, nothing advanced about that.

 

And just because return missile fire is low doesn't mean the Fist Fleet has nothing. It still has much more firepower than pirate ships.

 

But there's something on my mind. The point was brought up that the Broadsides will be positioned beyond scanner range. These ships are slow. That's going to take a while, and if the Fist fleet presses in on the CIC fleet, that will only make it take even longer as the "Fog of War" is "uncovered."