Canino Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 While that's a decent strategy, I'll address the ship-to-ship engagement first. You seem to forget that the CIC is massively outgunned in ship-to-ship engagements. I'll post something from Wookieepedia here: There are twenty Harrowers. Boarding parties are all well and good, but they take away from ground forces (the ground battle happening at the same time, of course). The transports can also be taken out by the numerically superior fighters or Fury-classes. We are outgunned, but are numerically superior. Combine that with boarding parties, it could prove fatal to your force. I still believe assassination would occur, weakening the Fist's forces even more. And let's not forget the Stinger can wipe out your capital ships easily, and the Virago can punch holes in your formation and decimate fighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) The Confederacies' fleets are being deployed in a manner in keeping with the Black Sun navy and the Zann Consortium fleets i.e. pirate fleets. They're capital ships were designed to be small and mobile as opposed to staging points. The Broadside is not getting "free fighters" fighters are just being deployed in a different way. Altogether I'd suggest you calm yourself on this issue, lets not start yet another flame war. If I recall you told me that that is something you wanted to avoid in these Kaggaths. P.S. Note that all Canino's chosen fighters are directly affiliated with his fleets i.e. they were deployed with them. If you want a how then feel free to read up on just how Black Sun and Zann Consortium fleets operated. Because they did. This isn't a flame war, I have nothing against Canino here, again, it's you. I'm not saying you're doing a crap job, it's hard to manage something like this. But if you set a precedent you have to stick to it, you can't just go around using different rules for different people. For example: I lost fighter numbers because my ships had to house Thunderclaps. End of, you wouldn't have any more discussion on it, you specifically said no to hyperdrives. Canino's forces can't house fighters, they get to use hyperdrives. Thunderclaps were always deployed separately, this is nothing to do with how the fleets operate, this is about the rules you set. Another example would be "No, the SIS can't supply things in the same way that Imperial Intelligence couldn't" ......................... edit: And no, this isn't just me being pissy. I won the fleet battle, I don't care, I just want some stability here. Edited August 7, 2014 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 It actually kinda is... Naval Officers: Black Sun Leader Prince Xizor... The ships for the most part are even Black Sun. At best, this is just like the Imperial Droid Division being part of the Galactic Empire. It is not the whole of it, but merely a piece of it, like a special fleet designated for certain areas or duties. I remind Rule #67 Fighter complement choices will be restricted to whatever fighters you’re chosen ships have deployed at any point during their usage – though do not attempt to find loopholes. Sorry I am the Rule Nazi..... hear me roar . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) While that's a decent strategy, I'll address the ship-to-ship engagement first. You seem to forget that the CIC is massively outgunned in ship-to-ship engagements. I'll post something from Wookieepedia here: There are twenty Harrowers. Boarding parties are all well and good, but they take away from ground forces (the ground battle happening at the same time, of course). The transports can also be taken out by the numerically superior fighters or Fury-classes.I forget nothing! As I said their firepower is partially negated by the fact that they predominately use turbolaser batteries which can be evaded by small craft - whereas point defense is weak and short range - and the fact that with the Confederacies fleet scattered among they're own they have to be careful not to shoot their own vessels. Something I should note though is that the Broadside cruiser's missile would prove both an effective fighter and capital ship defence. Fighters for obvious reasons and capital ships because the kinetic impact gets stronger as you draw closer. True, but lets not forget we are dealing with droids here. They are expendable because they can be quickly replaced. And yes possible, but don't forget the role of the Crusaders, who will be laying down anti-fighter fire. EDIT: After reading your quote more thoroughly, you make good points. But honestly I feel this will be a defense rather than offensive maneuver, covering themselves and buying time as opposed to doing crippling damage. Edited August 7, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Because all of our respective navies had that doctrine and that is how they tended to go about carrying out their business. The Black Sun did not. They were not an official force, they were pirates. Fitting in this doctrine, they did not rely on each other as heavily and instead opted for self sufficiency. Meaning that the standard/doctrine for the Black Sun, was for each vessel to be able to get to the target without being carried by others. As the other navies had their doctrine of carriers, Black Sun had their pilots transport themselves separate from the capital ships. Except Thunderclaps never launched from Hangars. X-Wings rarely did either, same for B-Wings.... And K-Wings.... And Fury's.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canino Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Sel, I have a question? How do you suppose we fix the fighter issue? Give me no fighters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I remind Rule #67 Fighter complement choices will be restricted to whatever fighters you’re chosen ships have deployed at any point during their usage – though do not attempt to find loopholes. Sorry I am the Rule Nazi..... hear me roar . The thing is, for Pirate forces such as the CIC, it was almost solely the way they deployed. There was no such thing as a "Pirate carrier" they came separate, every time. So in fact, this would still be in line with the rules due to the very nature of the faction and how they go about fighting. It is common practice for them, and so it does not violate #67. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 We are outgunned, but are numerically superior. Combine that with boarding parties, it could prove fatal to your force. I still believe assassination would occur, weakening the Fist's forces even more. And let's not forget the Stinger can wipe out your capital ships easily, and the Virago can punch holes in your formation and decimate fighters. A single Harrower can take out several ships much smaller than it. That means that the firepower:numbers distance evens out, imo. Fury-class ships could likely take out the Stinger and Virago with their advanced weaponry. Also, Ventress is certainly a better pilot than whatever two-bit scum (pirates are scum) are in those ships, inferior firepower or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Sel, I have a question? How do you suppose we fix the fighter issue? Give me no fighters? And see there in lies the problem, Fighter rules need to be more specific in cases such as these. Beni hates numbers but with out them a proper fleet assessment can not be given. He has to do what he hates other wise the debate becomes a stand still and a rule's and regulations spewing thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 The CIC isnt the Black sun, they are the CIC and I figured EVERYONE MUST conform to the rules set forth in the Kaggath rule book.The point is its using pirate warships, so pirate rules apply. No rules are being broken here by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Sel, I have a question? How do you suppose we fix the fighter issue? Give me no fighters? That, or you have minuscule amounts. Which is unfair because Beni would be going back on what he'd told you, but it'd also be more fair to everyone else. *shrug* Not my problem, just calling it like I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I forget nothing! As I said their firepower is partially negated by the fact that they predominately use turbolaser batteries which can be evaded by small craft - whereas point defense is weak and short range - and the fact that with the Confederacies fleet scattered among they're own they have to be careful not to shoot their own vessels. Something I should note though is that the Broadside cruiser's missile would prove both an effective fighter and capital ship defence. Fighters for obvious reasons and capital ships because the kinetic impact gets stronger as you draw closer. True, but lets not forget we are dealing with droids here. They are expendable because they can be quickly replaced. And yes possible, but don't forget the role of the Crusaders, who will be laying down anti-fighter fire. EDIT: After reading your quote more thoroughly, you make good points. But honestly I feel this will be a defense rather than offensive maneuver, covering themselves and buying time as opposed to doing crippling damage. It will only be partially negated when the pirate ships get into the mess. They still have to get through a haze of fire on their way. C-B3s are not easily replaceable, nor are Commando Droids and Droidekas. As Dave Filoni said in one of the early TCW Commentaries, the CIS didn't use the advanced droids often because they were so expensive and difficult to produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 The thing is, for Pirate forces such as the CIC, it was almost solely the way they deployed. There was no such thing as a "Pirate carrier" they came separate, every time. So in fact, this would still be in line with the rules due to the very nature of the faction and how they go about fighting. It is common practice for them, and so it does not violate #67. #67 Fighter complement choices will be restricted to whatever fighters you’re chosen ships have deployed at any point during their usage – though do not attempt to find loopholes. Complements are what came WITH the ship in question, allowing it not to, seems like a Loophole which is told not to find...... (Lol Rule Nazi hear me roar......lol) No but seriously there needs to be a new rule likely to solve this problem.... one probably involving numbers....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Except Thunderclaps never launched from Hangars. X-Wings rarely did either, same for B-Wings.... And K-Wings.... And Fury's.... Point for the Thunderclaps and the Fury's, which I think should have deployed separately, as I made known during the last Kaggath... Though for the X-Wings, B-wings, and K-wings. That is incorrect. They launched into battle alone, yes. However, they were often carried by carriers so as to not waste their limited supplies and fuel. Not to mention quite a cramped space... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I forget nothing! As I said their firepower is partially negated by the fact that they predominately use turbolaser batteries which can be evaded by small craft - whereas point defense is weak and short range - and the fact that with the Confederacies fleet scattered among they're own they have to be careful not to shoot their own vessels. Something I should note though is that the Broadside cruiser's missile would prove both an effective fighter and capital ship defence. Fighters for obvious reasons and capital ships because the kinetic impact gets stronger as you draw closer. True, but lets not forget we are dealing with droids here. They are expendable because they can be quickly replaced. And yes possible, but don't forget the role of the Crusaders, who will be laying down anti-fighter fire. EDIT: After reading your quote more thoroughly, you make good points. But honestly I feel this will be a defense rather than offensive maneuver, covering themselves and buying time as opposed to doing crippling damage. Harrowers had to face multiple Thrantas at once. Gladiators were designed to combat small pirate ships. I don't see how this would work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Point for the Thunderclaps and the Fury's, which I think should have deployed separately, as I made known during the last Kaggath... Though for the X-Wings, B-wings, and K-wings. That is incorrect. They launched into battle alone, yes. However, they were often carried by carriers so as to not waste their limited supplies and fuel. Not to mention quite a cramped space... Ya but that is because Thunderclaps and Furries are bassically miniture Personal Corvette's bassically smaller personal Capital ships which I dont think should have been allowed to begin with, but people have heard me spout enough about that as is. Basically they arent fighters, they arent even Frieghters... they are bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 This isn't a flame war, I have nothing against Canino here, again, it's you. I'm not saying you're doing a crap job, it's hard to manage something like this. But if you set a precedent you have to stick to it, you can't just go around using different rules for different people. For example: I lost fighter numbers because my ships had to house Thunderclaps. End of, you wouldn't have any more discussion on it, you specifically said no to hyperdrives. Canino's forces can't house fighters, they get to use hyperdrives. Thunderclaps were always deployed separately, this is nothing to do with how the fleets operate, this is about the rules you set. Another example would be "No, the SIS can't supply things in the same way that Imperial Intelligence couldn't" ......................... edit: And no, this isn't just me being pissy. I won the fleet battle, I don't care, I just want some stability here.Responded to in the Rulebook. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7593166#post7593166 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 #67 Fighter complement choices will be restricted to whatever fighters you’re chosen ships have deployed at any point during their usage – though do not attempt to find loopholes. Complements are what came WITH the ship in question, allowing it not to, seems like a Loophole which is told not to find...... (Lol Rule Nazi hear me roar......lol) No but seriously there needs to be a new rule likely to solve this problem.... one probably involving numbers....... If you want to be technical then #67 is not violated or even approached then. Since these fighters are NOT a compliment to the other ships. They are sold separately. Pirate Fleets ftw. If you are referring to loop holes, then this issue doesn't even have to do with #67, not to mention Beni himself helped design this force. (Logic Man, hear me yawn!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Responded to in the Rulebook. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7593166#post7593166 Already replied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 If you want to be technical then #67 is not violated or even approached then. Since these fighters are NOT a compliment to the other ships. They are sold separately. Pirate Fleets ftw. If you are referring to loop holes, then this issue doesn't even have to do with #67, not to mention Beni himself helped design this force. (Logic Man, hear me yawn!!!) If sold seperately they do not exist as per rule #67.... Fighter complement choices will be restricted to whatever fighters you’re chosen ships have deployed at any point during their usage – though do not attempt to find loopholes. Trying to "logic it out" is a Loop hole violateing rule 67.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 If sold seperately they do not exist as per rule #67.... Fighter complement choices will be restricted to whatever fighters you’re chosen ships have deployed at any point during their usage – though do not attempt to find loopholes. Trying to "logic it out" is a Loop hole violateing rule 67.... Except you are figuring this as if the Pirate fleet is setup just like a standard military fleet. What you are essentially saying, is like if a Imperial Star Destroyer did not have its 72 fighter compliment kus they had forgot to resupply on fuel. The fact of the matter is that the CIC does have these fighters, and while the exact number is up in the air currently, their method of deployment was different than the norm which means that they are indeed not compliments. No loophole, simply different way of operating and deploying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 Harrowers had to face multiple Thrantas at once. Gladiators were designed to combat small pirate ships. I don't see how this would work....I fail to see the logic with the first point, the Empire aren't exactly winning the war. Furthermore the Crusaders are faster and to my eyes smaller than the Thrantas. Good point about the Gladiators however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I fail to see the logic with the first point, the Empire aren't exactly winning the war. Furthermore the Crusaders are faster and to my eyes smaller than the Thrantas. Good point about the Gladiators however. The Crusaders probably are smaller if we consider how large a crew both ships have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 The Crusaders probably are smaller if we consider how large a crew both ships have.Well they are called corvettes but look and seem to operate a lot more like Hammerheads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Well they are called corvettes but look and seem to operate a lot more like Hammerheads. That's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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