Patch 2.9 - Bye Bye Roll Bang Bang

[XEEVA]

Saw someone post on the PTS forums about Covered Escape and Jump not working as intended. Checked it out for myself and confirmed on both my Sniper and Slinger.

 

The Devs stipulated in the patch notes that there are no upcoming changes in 2.9 to ANY class. However they have stealthed patched the covered escape glitch which unless they plan on overhauling the entire broken Engi tree we will lose a significant portion of damage.

 

I know this is still early days in the PTS and this might change before go-live, but thought I would let you all know that "Roll Bang" as it stands is dead and I for one am not happy about that unless they actually re-work the Engi tree to make it viable for end game and PVP content.

[TACeMossie]

Saw someone post on the PTS forums about Covered Escape and Jump not working as intended. Checked it out for myself and confirmed on both my Sniper and Slinger.

 

The Devs stipulated in the patch notes that there are no upcoming changes in 2.9 to ANY class. However they have stealthed patched the covered escape glitch which unless they plan on overhauling the entire broken Engi tree we will lose a significant portion of damage.

 

I know this is still early days in the PTS and this might change before go-live, but thought I would let you all know that "Roll Bang" as it stands is dead and I for one am not happy about that unless they actually re-work the Engi tree to make it viable for end game and PVP content.

 

Technically, rollbang meant rolling into a wall with the boss/adds stacked into it, so you could unload the ridiculous burst. The rolling into a wall is still possible, Only the exploit is fixed (which was making engineering massively overperform on single target fights)

 

That said, I like running engineering for dailies, and im gonna miss the roll-on-the-spot trick for them

Edited July 29, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Modules]

The rolling into a wall is still possible, Only the exploit is fixed

that's how i understood it in the thread in PTS section. with a wall in range and ppl carelessly coming close to it, rollbang would still be an awesome defense/offense move in pvp plz keep it that way

[DieGhostDie]

It's fine. That exploit was game-breaking to be honest. It's been long past time Engineering gets a clean slate.

[BaineOs]

... and I for one am not happy about that unless they actually re-work the Engi tree to make it viable for end game and PVP content.

Won't be what you want to hear so I'm sorry for that but if you relied upon the roll in place bug to make the engineering tree viable in pvp then you haven't been using the spec correctly. It's not without issues I accept that but it's perfectly viable without it.

 

Whilst I appreciate it will cause issues for pve folk if this has been fixed I'm still happy about it. Perhaps it'll make people learn to play the spec instead of relying upon a bug. Now if they can only remove the wall bang as well I'll be a well happy engineering sniper

[jedip_enguin]

I could never get the timing right even when nothing else was going on much less during actual combat, so this doesnt bother me too much.

 

Every spec we have is in desperate need of an overhaul anyway and rollbangs overeffectiveness is part of the reason SS/MM and DF/Leth have been left to rot for as long as they have.

[Vaidinah]

Saw someone post on the PTS forums about Covered Escape and Jump not working as intended. Checked it out for myself and confirmed on both my Sniper and Slinger.

 

The Devs stipulated in the patch notes that there are no upcoming changes in 2.9 to ANY class. However they have stealthed patched the covered escape glitch which unless they plan on overhauling the entire broken Engi tree we will lose a significant portion of damage.

 

I know this is still early days in the PTS and this might change before go-live, but thought I would let you all know that "Roll Bang" as it stands is dead and I for one am not happy about that unless they actually re-work the Engi tree to make it viable for end game and PVP content.

 

I already responded to the other thread, but yeah, I just tested the change out and Engineering will be dead if it comes out. There is no justification for changing the only aspect of a spec that makes it viable for raiding with zero compensation.

[Andrellma]

Don't count on this being fixed. Keep in mind that server lag is minimal on the PTS, which makes the jump roll significantly harder to pull off. We'll see on the live servers.

[BaineOs]

Don't count on this being fixed. Keep in mind that server lag is minimal on the PTS, which makes the jump roll significantly harder to pull off. We'll see on the live servers.

Aye I noticed someone said that and I'd find it funny if that's the case I'd have thought those in the US would have minimal server lag though so would have a better chance of testing it than those of us in the eu?

[fire-breath]

I don't think its a bad thing if the rolljump exploit is fixed. Not sure if its due to PTS lag but regardless its annoying in PvP since there is no way to prevent it if the sniper/slinger is smart.

 

Wallbanging is imo okey, even in PvP. It learns you to not stand near a wall. Only the more skilled gunslingers will be able to wallbang someone by pushing and rooting you.

 

For PvE the repercussion are not that high.

Nevra NiM

large enough to roll through or just tank her close to staircase (aka wallbang)

 

Draxus NiM

I tend to save my hightail for the dismantler but if you want to you can wallbang many adds.

On my slinger I'm always battling a tactics vanguard with his 3 stacked pulse cannon ready (east side). Most of the time I manage to get 2 adds but sometimes 3 adds by wallbanging them.

Other wallbangable adds:

- despoiler

- dismantler

- dispatcher

- guardians

- subteroths

- Draxus (yes you can position him if you like)

 

Grobbie NiM

large enough to roll through

 

Czero NiM

Czero is always tanked against a wall (in our case at least).

Adds are coming around the corner and are also wallbangable

 

Brontes NiM

Yeah ......... was there anyone who specced saboteur in here? If its viable please tell me how you made it viable

 

DP NiM (havent entered DP NiM yet but I have sufficient HM experience and tactical knowledge of the NiM changes)

Bestia

Much can be wallbanged

 

Tyrans

Tough luck here

 

Calphy

On HM I always went in with a tank and healer. The other side got 3 dps since I could wallbang the adds and down them all on time (there is a hague thingy which will stop your roll)

Als calphy himself in the present can be wallbanged if the tanks position him correctly

 

Raptus

Wallbangable if placed close to the throne area

 

Council

I haven't looked up any guides yet for this so I am a tad in the dark here about all the changes. What I have seen is:

- bestia pushes back further

- you get the Soa airline treatment at times

- Styrak ports to mid

 

I assume you can still wallbang Raptus as kiter. Styrak is pretty large too.

Last phase you can hit at least 3 of the bosses if done correctly

 

With all this I think its safe to say that a fixed exploit doesn't change that much PvE wise. Largest part is that you are now at the mercy of tanks.

[Benirons]

Not sure what the problem is, its an exploit. If you do engineering as it should be done (aka wallbang if u can), then nothing changes.

[Gyronamics]

A primary damage dealing attack of a ranged class should never be to melee a target.

 

It should also not be something that is abused horribly by many snipers who macro it for open ground "wallbanging" in pvp and pve.

 

A necessary change and the crocodile tears should be ignored.

 

Bring on the total death of the ability and its replacement with something more worthy of the class.

[Vaidinah]

No offense, fire-breath, but your ideas on how wall-banging is okay for current NiM ops are wrong by a great deal. In every case if rolling-in-place is "fixed", Saboteur/Engineering becomes an inferior spec in terms of DPS, burst, survivability, and utility compared to any other Gunslinger/Sniper spec. That's even with forcing your tanks to hold every boss possible against a wall just to even come close to the damage any other spec could do. All the while, you are putting yourself at risk to be worse than every spec. You could certainly not run the spec during progression or for timed runs if you care about your team at all.

 

For PvE the repercussion are not that high.

Nevra NiM

large enough to roll through or just tank her close to staircase (aka wallbang)

 

This boss isn't a DPS check in either 8 or 16 man so you can run anything and do fine. Blocking your tank's vision just so you can wallbang is not worth it, but I guess it doesn't actually matter.

 

Draxus NiM

I tend to save my hightail for the dismantler but if you want to you can wallbang many adds.

On my slinger I'm always battling a tactics vanguard with his 3 stacked pulse cannon ready (east side). Most of the time I manage to get 2 adds but sometimes 3 adds by wallbanging them.

Other wallbangable adds:

- despoiler

- dismantler

- dispatcher

- guardians

- subteroths

- Draxus (yes you can position him if you like)

 

 

There's a massive difference in DPS between rolling-in-place to hit all the adds in an area with all 5 Scatter Bombs and rolling through all of them to hit each of them with some. Marksman would become straight up better than Engineer due to the high burst (killing each add quickly is much better for your team than slowly killing all of them). I would feel sorry for any melee you have on your team that has to chase around the adds just so you can wallbang them, though, as they are losing DPS for your personal score, especially the Tactics guy.

 

Grobbie NiM

large enough to roll through

 

 

You can roll through Grob'thok, but like Draxus, you are now hitting each add much less times with your Scatter Bombs, which drops your burst massively. Every other spec is better.

 

Czero NiM

Czero is always tanked against a wall (in our case at least).

Adds are coming around the corner and are also wallbangable

 

 

The DPS check in this fight is very minimal now. If your tanks LoS the adds and you have zero responsibility in the fight (i.e. you don't stand out to take the mine or interrupt the gold add), then sure, Engineering would work decently here in terms of DPS.

 

DP NiM (havent entered DP NiM yet but I have sufficient HM experience and tactical knowledge of the NiM changes)

Bestia

Much can be wallbanged

 

 

As with Draxus, your Scatter Bombs won't hit all the adds with 5 hits nor be even close so your burst again drops massively. This fight is a significant DPS check as it stands and the larva in particular do massive damage the longer they stay up (especially in 16 man). In the meantime, your tank can't help your team by standing nearby any Tentacles to improve your team's DPS by getting incidental AoE damage and must stand against a wall. Like before, I feel sorry for the other melee (though I guess if your vanguard buddy is Assault-specced, he may be fine).

 

Calphy

On HM I always went in with a tank and healer. The other side got 3 dps since I could wallbang the adds and down them all on time (there is a hague thingy which will stop your roll)

Als calphy himself in the present can be wallbanged if the tanks position him correctly

 

 

There are two parts of the fight that matter for DPS. On the first Past/Future teleport, the right side has a DPS check with killing an add (Marksman is by far the best here). On the second Past/Future teleport, the right side has to kill these balls that spawn before they reach the boss (Marksman is the best by far here as well). Engineering becomes extraordinarily terrible for this fight as you can't wallbang any of the DPS checks. DPS on Calphayus doesn't matter.

 

Raptus

Wallbangable if placed close to the throne area

 

 

Oh man, this fight is so bad for Engineering. First of all, the DPS checks are in the challenge, which you can no longer do because there are 2 enemies that are spread apart (damaging the right one reflects damage at you as well). Next, Raptus does an attack called "Spinny Attack" (or something like that) after the 2nd challenge where he chases your team around the room and kills them almost instantly if he reaches them. You want your roll to escape Raptus and while your tanks get Raptus back into position, your damage drop so hard in Engineering. Plasma Probe/Incendiary Grenade is incredibly weak on this fight due to the boss' movement and it's our strongest DoT. Sharpshooter is best due to burst, movement, and survivability by an incredible margin.

 

Council

I haven't looked up any guides yet for this so I am a tad in the dark here about all the changes. What I have seen is:

- bestia pushes back further

- you get the Soa airline treatment at times

- Styrak ports to mid

 

I assume you can still wallbang Raptus as kiter. Styrak is pretty large too.

Last phase you can hit at least 3 of the bosses if done correctly

 

 

The amount of movement in phase 2 (the main DPS check in the fight) would render Engineering completely useless as you can't tank the bosses against a wall. Also, your roll would not hit each boss with 5 Scatter Bombs just as in the other bosses I've mentioned, which drops your DPS. Since you are using your roll to damage, you can no longer use it to get to Brontes when she teleports, destroying your DPS as you slowly move to the next location so you can easily get screwed if Brontes moves to the opposite location on the map.

 

On the last phase, you need to kill one boss at a time so your burst on the one being focused is what matters. Hitting 2 Scatter Bombs on 3 Council members does not help your team.

 

In conclusion, Engineering is straight up terrible after the "fix".

Edited August 4, 2014 by Vaidinah