Lets Talk Space Gameplay..

[TYGRHobbes]

I just can't see it. So because one area is a corridor shooter while the other is open-world, suddenly means the experience is ruined? A good analogy would be say, the battlefield series. You have ground combat where you just run around and shoot things, but then you can hop in a jet and take to the skies and dogfight. Two very different gameplay styles, yet they go just fine. Not everything in the game has to play the exact same. Just because ground is extremely linear doesn't mean space would have to be as well. If anything, the fact that it's SPACE diminishes your clashing argument. If they implemented proper space, but made it as linear as ground, everyone would complain. You don't go up into space only to be trapped in a bazillion instances as you play by yourself. You go into space to expect, well.. space. So free roam in space would work just fine since that's what everyone would expect in any sort of space-based expansion pack.

 

Actually both arguments are calling for free-form, just in different amounts. Anything that takes it off the rail is going to be a major improvement.

[Sadistic_Extasy]

So...how 'bout this?

 

Free-roam, sandbox, space-based flashpoints. I think that would be a good place to start. Since the current flashpoints do fit into each character's story in some way or another, why not implement flight?

 

A completely separate pilot character for each faction that has a specific story, more space missions with few ground-based missions (boarding actions, etc). This would maintain the story-driven aspect of the game, but also allow the implementation of open-space flight.

 

Did someone mention these already and I've forgotten? I can't remember the last time I went to sleep......

[ColonelColt]

Actually both arguments are calling for free-form, just in different amounts. Anything that takes it off the rail is going to be a major improvement.

 

Well, I'm talking free-roam in more player capacity, not so much strictly gameplay terms. It's not really free roam just cuz I can move in 3D.

 

In the end, before I go to bed. I just want a modernized JTL. It added so much to SWG, allowed you to truly experience the SW universe. ToR makes that more difficult with it's whole "but you're a special snowflake, one of millions of special snowflakes" mentality, but with their own version of JTL, I could live with that. To be able to go to the space port, grab my ship, take my friends and have them man the guns as we go through blasting pirates, maybe participating in some large fleet battle as Guild A tries to rest control of the Nar Shaddaa space station from Guild B. Would be amazingly fun and add a whole new dynamic and freshness to the game, something expansions use to do in the distant past.

[ColonelColt]

So...how 'bout this?

 

Free-roam, sandbox, space-based flashpoints. I think that would be a good place to start. Since the current flashpoints do fit into each character's story in some way or another, why not implement flight?

 

A completely separate pilot character for each faction that has a specific story, more space missions with few ground-based missions (boarding actions, etc). This would maintain the story-driven aspect of the game, but also allow the implementation of open-space flight.

 

Did someone mention these already and I've forgotten? I can't remember the last time I went to sleep......

 

Curse you for making me reply again, but the problem with that idea is it's nothing more then a patch. It's no different then adding in new flashpoints or warzones. So if that's what you intended, then alright. But I've been discussing an expansion pack. Those things you pay 40 bucks for. And for a space-based expansion pack, what you suggest simply doesn't cut it. It comes nowhere near cutting it. As a stop-gap measure before a full on expansion, it'd be legit, but on it's own, meh.

[TYGRHobbes]

So...how 'bout this?

 

Free-roam, sandbox, space-based flashpoints. I think that would be a good place to start. Since the current flashpoints do fit into each character's story in some way or another, why not implement flight?

 

A completely separate pilot character for each faction that has a specific story, more space missions with few ground-based missions (boarding actions, etc). This would maintain the story-driven aspect of the game, but also allow the implementation of open-space flight.

 

Did someone mention these already and I've forgotten? I can't remember the last time I went to sleep......

 

Actually a simple example as the mission to blow up the Death Star in ANH would be an awesome flashpoint type as you can have VA dialog as you're flying to the destination and then jump into free-roam combat when you get there. This could easily be done PvP as well.

[Ralin]

The issue comes when you propose the players themselves being able to make their space ports, and their capital ships. Because that is not something that matches with the rest of SWTOR.

 

Oh well that I 100% agress with you Zenning, sure I found it entertaining to have my own house in SWG, but it wasn't all that amazing. TOR's story is of a player constantly traveling, exploring, and helping out the galaxy.

 

Letting players make their own spaceport is, I agree, wrong for TOR, Capital Ships could be fun though, just have three models available for example and let guilds invest in upgrades, but nothing more.

[TYGRHobbes]

Curse you for making me reply again, but the problem with that idea is it's nothing more then a patch. It's no different then adding in new flashpoints or warzones. So if that's what you intended, then alright. But I've been discussing an expansion pack. Those things you pay 40 bucks for. And for a space-based expansion pack, what you suggest simply doesn't cut it. It comes nowhere near cutting it. As a stop-gap measure before a full on expansion, it'd be legit, but on it's own, meh.

 

I agree that this just by itself would be a meh expansion. You would need more than just a flashpoint type mission to make it a full expansion.

[Sadistic_Extasy]

Yeah I see what you mean, ColonelColt. I didn't make my thought clear. It is after 7am where I am...

 

What I meant with those ideas was a possible starting point. Something that could possibly be refined and developed (if received well) into a full-blown expansion that could still fit into the story-driven aspect of the game. Space battles are constantly being fought and I'm sure there are plenty of Red Comets and Skull Leaders that have a fun story to tell.

[Ralin]

And BioWare could add pseudo-freeroaming.

Meaning they let us freeroam in certain sectors, just like we are doing right now.

You either freeroam on Tython, in the Senate Plaza, etc...

 

They could let us freeroam in a (pretty big nonetheless) sector, and when we are approaching that sector's limits, either have for example the nearby planet or space station comm us "You are leaving radio contact, turn back or hyperspace!" or something like this.

 

If you really think about it, space flight in SWG was sort of similar. Since the actual space surrounding planets was so huge (I never tried at least) I would just hyperjump between sectors of the same planet. BioWare could easily do this, requiring us to jump between sectors in space, just like when we taxi different parts of a planet.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Ralin

[Krovan]

This is a narrative, and character driven game. Unless we get Wing-commander-esque sequences between space missions, it's unlikely that the space combat really would fit.

 

I disagree completely, I think it could be used as an alternative to narrative story driven content, hear me out.

 

If we get to a point where there isn't much to do pve wise, or we need a break from the linear storyline elements, what better method than to hop into free roaming space with some territory control?

 

It doesn't need to have major voice acting or scripting, players can provide the content by fighting over systems with each other. I saw this in batttlestar galactica online, the game had zero story..little pve..what it did have was a bunch of zones linked together and players made the content.

 

It's not meant to eclipse the ground pve experience in any way, its just to give players something else to do when things dry up, that doesn't require a ton of maintenance and dev time once it's in place.

 

I get that it doesn't "fit" with the current version of TOR, but TOR is a brand new game, why pigeon hole it into a themepark when it already has some interesting new takes on crafting and ships?

 

A story driven narrative works very well for a ground environment, because you can see your character, see his expression..see the reactions on the face of the NPC his actions cause.

 

Space is different, they have done a good job of making the minigame we have feel personal, with crew making comments while you fly..

 

 

Here's the thing with games like star wars, they have space in them, and players that really enjoy space games like freedom, the best selling pc space games made never were on rails, and just go google "looking for a space mmo"

 

You will find hundreds of threads on different sites by people over the years that have been trying to find a good space game, and there isn't one.

 

Jump to lightspeed was arguably the closest anyone has ever come to doing the rarest thing sci fi fans have wanted in a game, space and ground.

 

Tor has a unique opportunity here, already a solid engaging ground game exists, thats the lengthy part of the puzzle, space doesn't require as much to build.

 

games like eve online have a mountain to climb in trying to develop a decent ground game to go with a space game.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Krovan

[Ralin]

If we get to a point where there isn't much to do pve wise, or we need a break from the linear storyline elements, what better method than to hop into free roaming space with some territory control?

 

My point exactly. Bioware needs to start thinking and expanding the entire Space aspect of the game NOW, so that it is ready when players start to run out of differents things to do. For any given MMO, with time, things repeat themselves, WoW now is just "do dungeon for gear, raid for better gear, epeen +1".

 

Adding freeroam space with a side storyline like we've been saying would spice things up, everyone would give it a shot at least, some will love it and become hardcore pilots, others will not like it and focus on other aspects of the game.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Ralin

[Ralin]

Besides, Bioware wouldn't have added these "Hutt Space", "Contested Space" etc sectors for nothing. They're going to use them. Edited December 24, 2011 by Ralin

[monjiay]

I love the space games. We used to call them tube shooters.

 

Just because SWTOR offers little tube-shooter mini games does not translate into a sandbox space shooter.

 

Programming a sandbox space shooter is an entirely different animal. We could see it in the future but just because you can fly your ship along a rail shooting at stuff does not imply they have been working on free form space combat.

[Krovan]

I love the space games. We used to call them tube shooters.

 

Just because SWTOR offers little tube-shooter mini games does not translate into a sandbox space shooter.

 

Programming a sandbox space shooter is an entirely different animal. We could see it in the future but just because you can fly your ship along a rail shooting at stuff does not imply they have been working on free form space combat.

 

No it doesn't, but looking at the environment the on rails is in and the art assests and animation there seems to be some indication that it could move in that direction.

 

I noticed when doing an interfleet transport the shuttle seemed like it was much closer to an object moving through a 3d environment than an animated mini cutscene.

 

During the on rails space as well many of the collidables seem to be more 3d than 2d, if that makes sense.

 

I would not be surprised if they started out with free flight and a freelancer style mouse control system (very like the version we have now) and scaled back to on rails in order to meet the deadline for release.

 

It would be a shame if they didn't take the rails off, because the little we are able to see in the minigames looks fantastic, and I'd love to explore it all.

[Ralin]

It would be a shame if they didn't take the rails off, because the little we are able to see in the minigames looks fantastic, and I'd love to explore it all.

 

I agree, the space rails we have are smooth and fluid, the first time I flew a space mission I told myself "Well all the elements are there, it just looks like they couldn't finish the manual ship controlling part in time...."

 

While the tube system does make it easier since we no longer have to know where we're going, this can be quickly solved with nav points, maybe one each x amount of meters, following the same tube we now have.

[RobCivicCRX]

No need for free roaming space, base space comabat on STO(which has to be some of the best spaceship combat going)the pvp and fleet actions were really fun.

[Miffy]

I did one mission and it wasn't fun, the movement felt all weird and I just hated it.

 

I wanted Star Wars Battlefront fully 3D space PVP fights like you got at the end of RoTJ.

[Vialator]

"To date no MMO has really provided AAA space and AAA ground in one title, it's ambitious and risky."

 

to date the only company trying something similar is Eve online /dust 514 - they trying to merge space combat with ground combat.

[Gorgewall]

Can you even blow up a destroyer? I'll take out the shields but you can't seem to destroy the bridge. Sad panda

The bridges of capitol ships and the lower communications spires of the large outposts can be destroyed. They take 30 missiles, and blaster fire does not damage them. 500xp for killing it, plus a 2500 credit+xp bonus quest completion (it's not listed until you do it) once per mission per day.

 

On Republic side, I know you can do this in Makam Te Assault, Balosar Outpost, and Llanic Station Strike. If there are more, I haven't unlocked those missions yet. Everything else is on screen for too short a period to hit with 30 missiles. EMP / Proton Torpedoes might make this possible at 50, though.

[Saelyth]

the rail shooter game almost makes me want to vomit. Ive never had an issue before with any other game (including Descent) mainly due to the fact that I was controlling the ship, but this one is somewhat unpredictable in which way your going to go, my body isnt expecting it so its a big nauseating.

 

I would love to see this take more of an X-wing style system (tho nothing as grandiose as a Guild station, i think that's giving too much away. Small capital ships yes) Id even be ok if the missions mutated into X-wing esk missions that you could co-op. Perhaps even cross mission systems that pit you against the other side ala pvp (but nothing so simple like the bg/wz objectives) But missions setup similar to x-wing would be a good start imo.

[Evilidea]

I think your all remembering JTL wrong. From what I remember in space pve you basically flew in circle after circle til u got behind enemy then kill. JTL PvP was much better but

all the ppl saying how great it was are looking through rose colored lenses.

[Kelpius]

I just did my first space combat mission. I was severely disappointed. It felt like I was playing some cheap game that i just downloaded to my cell phone. I will not be doing any space missions until the space combat gets a revamp.

[TOJOLOBAL]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I like your post. your mentioning the first two references that popped into my head when I thought of the untapped potential for space game play. Leaving the space combat to stay on rails would be a big disappointment. Especially knowing (I agree with the OP) the x-wing vs tie series is still the best space sim I've ever played. Story was engaging and the sim mechanics were goooood. I'm sure it could be improved upon regarding ship augments and modifications.. guilds able to purchase larger ships would be amazing..

 

Further to the reference of freelancer I'd love to see both economy and political systems implemented somehow. Obviously there would have to be considerations and their implementation would need to fit the great foundation SWTOR has. We can't really justify in my mind a lvl 50 sith marauder in all a panic about his 500 ton freighter of cheezie poofs is under attack by pirates that he's trying to cash in just for credits. This is a limited view however..

 

As far as political systems for Bounty Hunters seems in particular awesome. If a player could achieve a certain neutrality between imperials and the republic perhaps they could open up potential missions for both.

 

Political systems have potential in my eyes if players could impact the allegiances of smaller worlds or space stations to their imp/rep sides. This might relate better to force users and military classes maybe .. but I guess that's all about motivation (a smuggler may or may not be interested in the political impact - maybe they just want some cold hard credits).

 

Bounty Hunters and Smugglers though (in my mind) have a more disassociated perspective.. perhaps after achieving a certain neutrality they could unlock republic missions on republic control real estate.. I think it'd be totally believable to see a smuggler on an imp planet making some credits.. or a bounty hunter in on a republic station following his prey.

 

On economy smugglers in a galactic economy enhances the class tremendously. Really filling it out. Bounty Hunters could be seen as pirates easily enough. either way.. smuggler runs can just as easily relate to politcal impact as cold hard credits. It all depends on motivation..

 

Lastly the great thing about designing incentives for non-force users might sway the galactic demographic to a more believable state.. one where smugglers and bounty hunters might be more common than jedi and sith.

 

I realize I've gone way off topic here so I'm gonna shut it now. IF they could implement some of the systems (xwing mechanics, galactic economy, galactic politics) and make believable I'd be very impressed.

 

Excited to see what they do with it.

 

 

 

So far I've done two space missions, and they were both fairly entertaining, nothing too complex just some barrel rolling and pew pew.

 

I loved games like freelancer and the x series, and being on rails is obviously a bit frustrating, I know this is the biggest issue with space combat and it's a very valid concern, considering that in 1993 lucas arts released one of the most engaging space combat games ever created...the venerable X-wing.

 

Now I dont know about everyone else, but what I have seen on low settings in space is pretty smooth, nice to look at and has all the building blocks of a potentially fun Star Wars space experience.

 

If the space game got off the rails, and we saw some type of territory control system akin to battlestar galactica online..nothing crazy or too complex, just a set of zones with a couple of capitol ships that can be destroyed to gain possesion...and some benefit for players in the region if captured like buffs on credits earned or xp gained..etc, well we could have something good here.

 

To date no MMO has really provided AAA space and AAA ground in one title, it's ambitious and risky.

 

If space got a bit sandboxy with capture points and free roaming controls, the potential for adding a big chunk of player driven gameplay during the off season of pve content could be pretty big.

 

I think the controls are solid, it feels pretty much like mouse flight in freelancer, and thats a good thing, we just need that off rails aspect and we could be basking in one heck of a game.

 

any other space flight people out there have ideas?

[utio]

Space combat and all that goes with it, crafting etc, just wouldnt fit within the scope of the game.

 

How so?