Why I should be able to buy PVP gear with Cartel coins

[Trevalion]

I cant spend enough hours in game to grind ranked in order to obtain and min/max the current top tier set across all my alts. The time required is unreasonable.

 

I've already sunk over a year into PVP in this game and the grind does nothing for me. Don't get me wrong, I really like the instanced PVP, and world PVP (when it happens) is usually pretty darn awesome. I will continue to play and slowly gear out all my alts. I have elite warlord on my main, and all of my 55 alts are well up over conqueror valor level.

 

That is my main problem though. Although I will be playing the PVP anyway (its where I get the most enjoyment in the game), and I'm going to get the gear by default just by playing, it takes to long to gear out alts over and over. But I want to. I want all my alts to be geared. However, my personal time is too valuable compared to having geared alts so I don't do it. It takes to effing long.

 

I want to be able to BUY both teirs of PVP gear sets with the Cartel coins I can save up for my subscription bonus or buy outright.

 

It's not pay to win, and here is why I believe that.

 

First, a little anecdotal experience if you care.

 

I play MWO (Mechwarrior Online) as well, especially when I get too annoyed while playing SWTOR. MWO is a fantastic (battlemech) mech game, that is all about PVP but with giant piloted mechanical tanks, lasers, missiles etc.

The ultimate power in that universe is of course, your battlemech chassis + loadout. Nothing quite as fearsome as watching a Atlas come rolling over the ridge with lasers and AC's pouring out of it while it's shrugging off my medium mechs firepower.

See, in MWO you can (and are encouraged to) buy the chassis using real money (mechwarrior credits). The chassis you own directly affect how effective you can be in a match by providing platforms with different loadouts and features.

The mech chassis you BUY directly effects the amount of firepower you can bring to a match.

However, MWO is definitely NOT pay to win. Simply purchasing a chassis does not guarantee victory. First you have to earn experience in that chassis, and second you actually have to have the skills to play in that chassis. You CAN purchase some clear advantages in chassis weight and loadout, thats all.

 

 

So, how does this translate to SWTOR?

 

 

 

The tier of the armor set you have doesn't guarantee you victory. In fact, I have seen and experienced multiple warzones where people (other than myself) whose gear set I know because I know them personally, are destroyed by other people who are less geared but more experienced. It goes without saying that I have ridden that horse too.

But the gear does make a difference in straight up numbers. You do more damage to lower tier geared and take less damage from lower tiered geared players. Period. Indisputable.

In fact the whole paradigm of SWTOR pvp right now is that; If you have put in the time to get the gear you DESERVE to do more damage and take less damage from players who have put in less time than you.

 

I think this is a terrible reward system for PVP. It affects all players negatively.

 

Let me buy the PVP gear instead of grinding for PVP gear, and then give rewards for time spent playing PVP that are less disparate than the indisputable advantage that comes from wearing top tier gear.

Right now my only real reward for time spent is just a title. I would prefer bonuses other than gear that give advantages to a higher valor player (PvP skill tree's, gear shells with unique set bonuses, optimization options not available at lower valor levels, unique mounts, unique dyes, unique pets, the list goes on). In PVP the gear disparity should NOT be my carrot.

Also, please, I am aware that Bolster is supposed to be alleviating that problem. My personal opinion is that it is somewhat effective, but not as effective as I want it to be. For bolster to really work it should give 100% parity in gear. But the Bolster system is demonstrably buggy and exploitable.

Simplify things for me as a paying customer. You don't have to change your system at all, just put the PVP gear on the Cartel market. Hopefully in the future you can implement better PVP reward systems.

 

And for all the folks flaming:

 

Main: Trevalion (Commando)

55 Alts: Deathticle (Shadow), Hightower (Sentinel), Octaire (Guardian)

30-54 Alts: Trevalion (Scoundrel), Epica (Sage), DarkOrb (Gunslinger), Treva'tiger (powertech), ...

Server: Harbinger

Black-Ball legacy

[JediMasterSLC]

If that isn't pay to win, nothing is. What the actual ****.

 

Anyway, you're in a double bind. Either

 

A) PvP gear isn't that big of an advantage ("The tier of the armor set you have doesn't guarantee you victory"), and you should stop complaining.

 

or

 

B) It does provide a substantive advantage- therefore, being able to skip the gear grind via real money IS pay to win.

Edited July 21, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Sangrar]

If that isn't pay to win, nothing is. What the actual ****.

 

yeah agreed. armor shells is one thing, just paying to get a huge stats advantage is another.

[Trevalion]

Being able to buy the gear on the cartel market would REMOVE the substantive advantage because all would have access to it equally. It would not be pay to win. It would be pay for quick access to the advantage that is ALREADY there because of the gear disparity.

 

I would love to have that advantage simply negated.

 

Bottom line. Ive put in the time to gear my main and I want to gear my alts by bypassing the grind.

 

Secondary point: The current grind makes no sense for PVP. I understand the system. I play in the system. I'm complaining about the system in the hope that a future system will be better.

[JediMasterSLC]

Being able to buy the gear on the cartel market would REMOVE the substantive advantage because all would have access to it equally. It would not be pay to win. It would be pay for quick access to the advantage that is ALREADY there because of the gear disparity.

 

I would love to have that advantage simply negated.

 

Bottom line. Ive put in the time to gear my main and I want to gear my alts by bypassing the grind.

 

Secondary point: The current grind makes no sense for PVP. I understand the system. I play in the system. I'm complaining about the system in the hope that a future system will be better.

 

How is it equal access if you have to pay real money to gear your toons? What if I don't want to pay $20 each for my 9 55s? If you really don't like the gear grind, why not just advocate for a no-gear system?

Edited July 21, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Savej]

I didn't read it but I oppose the title

[johnatters]

10/10 great troll, lots of effort.

 

This is a troll post, right? You are joking?

[kendawgg]

correct me if I am wrong but are the commendations doubled in war zones ATM?

 

and you dont have to gear your alts. you can just pvp and legacy gear over the pvp gear never having to take in the under geared toons

[JediMasterSLC]

This guy would fit right in at EA, trying to farm us for gear progression. Like, wat.

[Trevalion]

How is it equal access if you have to pay real money to gear your toons? What if I don't want to pay $20 each for my 9 55s? If you really don't like the gear grind, why not just advocate for a no-gear system?

 

Its equal access because both avenues are still available to gear any player for PVP. I don't want the current system to go away, I just want the option to get my alt's sets quickly by paying cash for it.

Its equal because ANY player can decide to do it. Just like now you can decide to drop 20$ for a server change or a name change, or a hypercrate of gamble packs etc.

 

I don't see what the big deal is.

If your already geared then this would mean nothing to you except more competition on an equal footing.

If you don't want to drop cash you can grind up the long way. Same as always. Nothing changes except possibly a few more geared people queuing.

If you have a little disposable income you buy up the set you want.

 

Who is losing by implementing this?

The only players who could complain are the ones who don't have the gear AND don't have the money. Simply put, this means the f2p preferred players who are using weekly warzone passes off the GTN. To whom I say, good on you. PVP is better if you have a subscription + you get cartel coins every month.

 

Dropping money on gear sets doesn't = time spent playing. You don't automatically learn your class and get better at PVP by having gear. You just have a more competitive environment for doing it in.

[Trevalion]

If that isn't pay to win, nothing is. What the actual ****.

 

Anyway, you're in a double bind. Either

 

A) PvP gear isn't that big of an advantage ("The tier of the armor set you have doesn't guarantee you victory"), and you should stop complaining.

 

or

 

B) It does provide a substantive advantage- therefore, being able to skip the gear grind via real money IS pay to win.

 

Ill *********** complain if I want. Change only comes from agitation

[Liquor]

Heh. 2 55 operatives zeroed comms and a 55 sniper zero comms blasted through min/ man Brut for 1 in 2 weeks of double WZ comms. Mostly via dailies and weeklies. So 30 mins to 45 mins per character on a good day or an hour or so on a bad day.

 

Legacy gear is min/max working on implants and ears now on the other 2 agents. Brut Relics and weapons done on them all as well.

 

So this year grind has been a waste of your time. Legacy gear it and get a legacy weapon. Quick and easy work.

 

I do this with Operations too. 2 Operative healers and 2 Jugg Tanks make quick work of comms and drops using legacy gear. Work smarter. Not harder.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Liquor

[theUndead]

Its equal access because both avenues are still available to gear any player for PVP. I don't want the current system to go away, I just want the option to get my alt's sets quickly by paying cash for it.

Its equal because ANY player can decide to do it. Just like now you can decide to drop 20$ for a server change or a name change, or a hypercrate of gamble packs etc.

 

I don't see what the big deal is.

If your already geared then this would mean nothing to you except more competition on an equal footing.

If you don't want to drop cash you can grind up the long way. Same as always. Nothing changes except possibly a few more geared people queuing.

If you have a little disposable income you buy up the set you want.

 

Who is losing by implementing this?

The only players who could complain are the ones who don't have the gear AND don't have the money. Simply put, this means the f2p preferred players who are using weekly warzone passes off the GTN. To whom I say, good on you. PVP is better if you have a subscription + you get cartel coins every month.

 

Dropping money on gear sets doesn't = time spent playing. You don't automatically learn your class and get better at PVP by having gear. You just have a more competitive environment for doing it in.

 

I'm not sure if you are understand this, but what you are asking for is pure pay to win plain and simple. What you are ostensibly saying, is that because you have disposable income there should be a way to buy your gear instead of EARNING it.

 

Sorry it does not work that way and in my mind your approach is lazy. Do you want to know what unintended consequences your idea would bring? For one, if the devs even considered this, they would have to put in the same system for 186 Dreadseed gear which in turns invalidates grinding and trivializes progression.

 

Suck it up, deal with it and grind like the rest of us.

[Savej]

correct me if I am wrong but are the commendations doubled in war zones ATM?

 

and you dont have to gear your alts. you can just pvp and legacy gear over the pvp gear never having to take in the under geared toons

 

The warzone event is over in a few hours, so...

[ekolan]

During the double WZ patch i've managed to gear the following:

 

1. Brutalizer Operative(Min/Max)
   
2. Brutalizer Mercenary(Min/Max}
   
3. Sniper - Brutalizer - MH/OH, earpiece, 2x implants - Obroan(Min/Max)
   
4. Obroan powertech(Min/Max)
   
5. Obroan Juggernaut(Min/Max Tank & Dps)
   
6. Obroan Marauder(Min/Max)
   
7. Obroan Assasin(Min/Max)
   
8. Obroan Sorcerer(Min/Max)
   

 

Did this by just completing dailies and weeklies on each toon here and there. Also, all toons were in partisan gear with the exception of my operative, sniper, and Mercenary(favorite toons ).

 

I would actually LOVE for a "starter" set to come back out kind of like recruit, but a little better(partisan would be a decent option). Reason being is i get tired of fresh 55's hitting ranked thinking they will gear out quicker even if its a loss. Another alternative would be to allow Sub 55 characters to buy the gear and not allow them to wear it. This would eliminate players from having to stack light sabers to sell back when they hit 55.

 

But overall your solution to gearing quickly is a wash at best. I'm all for PVP'ers not showing up to a warzone with total crap gear, but not in a pay 2 win fashion. and you're partially right, gear isnt that big of a factor, the REAL factor is augments, which Separates a fresh 55 at 27-28k from an obroan/augments 31-32k. here's how much it'll cost you(roughly) to augment:

 

14 augment kits at 55k + 35k install = 90k a kit = 1,260,000

14 augments at 70-80k = 980,000

 

Also you have to factor in shells, because who uses the basic PVP shell?

 

The 7 armor shells: 176,000

MH/OH Shells: 72,000

 

Thats Roughly in the area of 2.5 million credits per character to equip with augments. Granted you can be a crafter and craft all this in time, or grind the credits in time. But adding pvp gear to the CC will only then have players demanding the above added to CC market, thus eliminating a "grind" all together(which is what they want you to do). It also murders the economy, which is also bad.

 

The grind is fairly easy these days.. between the 2 weeklies and 3 dailies, you can buy gear like crazy. Obroan can be achieved in a week, even without the WZ dbl comms, if you just complete your dailies/weeklies. for the toons i care less about, i turn the ranked comms into reg comms, just to finish faster. and full min/max obroan isnt that far behind brutalizer. Someone will probably have numbers for that.

 

/rant

 

 

Disclaimer: Don't bash the numbers, they're only a rough estimate.

[Virus_Bot]

Being able to buy the gear on the cartel market would REMOVE the substantive advantage because all would have access to it equally. It would not be pay to win. It would be pay for quick access to the advantage that is ALREADY there because of the gear disparity.

 

I would love to have that advantage simply negated.

but why should i go against your quick access fully geared chars when i don't have anything

what if i don't have the money for quick access? should i just deal with it?

[Trevalion]

but why should i go against your quick access fully geared chars when i don't have anything

what if i don't have the money for quick access? should i just deal with it?

 

Meh, you already deal with it as a fresh 55, whats different?

[Trevalion]

I'm not sure if you are understand this, but what you are asking for is pure pay to win plain and simple. What you are ostensibly saying, is that because you have disposable income there should be a way to buy your gear instead of EARNING it.

 

Sorry it does not work that way and in my mind your approach is lazy. Do you want to know what unintended consequences your idea would bring? For one, if the devs even considered this, they would have to put in the same system for 186 Dreadseed gear which in turns invalidates grinding and trivializes progression.

 

Suck it up, deal with it and grind like the rest of us.

 

When you say EARNING it what do you mean? You must simply mean time spent because you get the gear for showing up. Not for winning. In fact, I think people are misunderstanding.

I LIKE warzones. I will play them in a house, I will play them with a mouse. I will even play them in the current scenario cause it's not terrible.

What I don't understand is why people think that time spent should equal a complete stats advantage though. Or why people think that because they have spent time that they somehow deserve it.

The stats advantage exists though. It's dumb. Put the armor on the market, or as someone else suggested make it freely available.

I get that the MMO meta is all about gear grind. Its a carrot. That works well for PvE where a player is continuously preparing for new content.

PVP IS it's own content. It seems obvious as we only have gotten 3 new 16 player maps and 4 8 player maps since release. They are still fun. PVE is different. Once it's on farm mode you just go through the motions to get the gear. PvP is never farm mode because the skill level of your opponents is random. Sometimes you dominate, other times you get dominated, and the best is when its a relatively equal fight.

 

Why is there an artificial stats gap? It doesn't need to be there. It adds to the chance of getting dominated in a given match up. Whatever. Since there is a gap, why cant I just bypass the "normal" MMO stupidity and buy the gear set?

 

I think swtor pvp is good enough that it doesn't need that carrot. I think it would be more fun if everyone was equal. The design team obviously thought so too because Bolster. However thats broken.

 

And lets be honest. EA/BW is running a for profit business. Putting the PVP gear on the market would = income.

[Virus_Bot]

Meh, you already deal with it as a fresh 55, whats different?

"meh what's different?" did you read what i posted? whats different is that i would be going against people that easily bought their gear while i cant spend money on that.

why should i have to deal with the gear buyers

 

maybe what you meant was that YOU have to deal with it, because you don't have the time to get the items and maybe get farmed by the people that play the game very often?

 

i wouldn't want to get farmed by people that bought their items while i cant.

 

You also talk a lot about equality and everybody having access to it and that, that makes it fair. but not everyone has the same money. so that's that.

 

Maybe a system in which taxes the gear purchasers by an amount and gives that percentage to the playerbase to get some free pvp pieces, i could see that working but it would not be a low tax because that would make it unfair

[MotorCityMan]

I am not sure why you think your alts should get a free ride. Or a pay cash, free of grind ride? Your only point is you want them geared but don't want or don't have the time to gear them.

 

That isn't a compelling argument.

Edited July 22, 2014 by MotorCityMan

[DarthRaika]

Let ppl buy 2nd tier ear/imp/relic/armorings/mods/enh and top level augments using cartel coins. This is still decently below 1st tier min/max and is not pay to win. If a CM purchased 2nd tier gear player is too much for you then it is a l2p issue for yourself.

 

More money for BW and easier to gear my alts would be nice. This may also bring in more players that don't like feeling too weak early on. However, I don't agree with top tier gear in the cartel market. The gear gap isn't too large and you should have to play to earn it. Personally, I'd rather have everyone at the same stats but games like this don't work that way and so you should have to earn that top gear.

 

A couple weeks of casual play will get you the lower tier gear and so being able to purchase it on the CM isn't that big of a deal.

Edited July 22, 2014 by DarthRaika

[Trevalion]

"meh what's different?" did you read what i posted? whats different is that i would be going against people that easily bought their gear while i cant spend money on that.

why should i have to deal with the gear buyers

 

maybe what you meant was that YOU have to deal with it, because you don't have the time to get the items and maybe get farmed by the people that play the game very often?

 

i wouldn't want to get farmed by people that bought their items while i cant.

 

You also talk a lot about equality and everybody having access to it and that, that makes it fair. but not everyone has the same money. so that's that.

 

Maybe a system in which taxes the gear purchasers by an amount and gives that percentage to the playerbase to get some free pvp pieces, i could see that working but it would not be a low tax because that would make it unfair

 

I can see where you are coming from. The current system works, it has workarounds in place to overcome gearing alts. Its tedious. Its still very unforgiving for a fresh 55 player. Especially one that hasn't had the full suite of "for galactic credits" upgrades (augments + kits). If you can spend up the "for galactic credits" upgrades then you are competitive against top-tier gear using bolstered gear. (Its relatively easy to game the bolster system). If not it still only takes a couple of weeks to gear to 2nd tier, which makes you viable (with augments) for yolo queue. From their its a month of solid waiting for pops to finish a top tier set. Finally the speed of the above is regulated by promotional effects, such as x2 token gains.

 

The time taken to do that cycle over and over again (for alts) can have some inverse effects as well, which effectively dilate the time taken. Increase it, you see. Stuff that all of us have to cope with. Family, job loss, job requirements, recreation of all forms etc.

 

You guys don't get it. The current system is working. I feel like I have spent enough time subbed in the game that I understand it. It will continue be working exactly the same if they could release the PvP sets to the market. All of the current avenues to obtain it will still be available.

 

Whats different is the effing TIME.

 

Now, my time must be as equal as your time. Because seriously, that's the service they are providing us. We PAY them for time on the system. Even F2P players pay them for time on the system, but its more of a gamble for them. Now the system has rules, some of which are inviolate to the community at large. Since people are paying them for time in the system then the system must reward the players. For many players (and this is a cardinal rule of such a system) they associate time spent with value. Since this system is virtually interactive, the rewards for that system while virtual have value. That value correlates with TIME spent obtaining it.

 

The service I am asking for is to allow me to shortcut the required time spent in the game in exchange for some money. I value my time in the game enough to give them MORE money to allow me to shortcut time spent.

 

It's obviously controversial. The feeling I get is that by allowing time to be shortcut for any player then somehow the time spent by any other player who didn't has less intrinsic value.

 

Your PAYING THEM FOR A SERVICE, you already get the value in the set of rules the service exposes.

I like this service. I will keep paying for it because it's fun for me. I would pay more for a shortcut service.

 

Its obviously

Its easy to do, and Im going to play the warzones anyway

[Trevalion]

Let ppl buy 2nd tier ear/imp/relic/armorings/mods/enh and top level augments using cartel coins. This is still decently below 1st tier min/max and is not pay to win. If a CM purchased 2nd tier gear player is too much for you then it is a l2p issue for yourself.

 

More money for BW and easier to gear my alts would be nice. This may also bring in more players that don't like feeling too weak early on. However, I don't agree with top tier gear in the cartel market. The gear gap isn't too large and you should have to play to earn it. Personally, I'd rather have everyone at the same stats but games like this don't work that way and so you should have to earn that top gear.

 

I could live with this. I don't really understand the need to "earn" gear in the same way. I must acknowledge that it is meaningful.

[theUndead]

I can see where you are coming from. The current system works, it has workarounds in place to overcome gearing alts. Its tedious. Its still very unforgiving for a fresh 55 player. Especially one that hasn't had the full suite of "for galactic credits" upgrades (augments + kits). If you can spend up the "for galactic credits" upgrades then you are competitive against top-tier gear using bolstered gear. (Its relatively easy to game the bolster system). If not it still only takes a couple of weeks to gear to 2nd tier, which makes you viable (with augments) for yolo queue. From their its a month of solid waiting for pops to finish a top tier set. Finally the speed of the above is regulated by promotional effects, such as x2 token gains.

 

The time taken to do that cycle over and over again (for alts) can have some inverse effects as well, which effectively dilate the time taken. Increase it, you see. Stuff that all of us have to cope with. Family, job loss, job requirements, recreation of all forms etc.

 

You guys don't get it. The current system is working. I feel like I have spent enough time subbed in the game that I understand it. It will continue be working exactly the same if they could release the PvP sets to the market. All of the current avenues to obtain it will still be available.

 

Whats different is the effing TIME.

 

Now, my time must be as equal as your time. Because seriously, that's the service they are providing us. We PAY them for time on the system. Even F2P players pay them for time on the system, but its more of a gamble for them. Now the system has rules, some of which are inviolate to the community at large. Since people are paying them for time in the system then the system must reward the players. For many players (and this is a cardinal rule of such a system) they associate time spent with value. Since this system is virtually interactive, the rewards for that system while virtual have value. That value correlates with TIME spent obtaining it.

 

The service I am asking for is to allow me to shortcut the required time spent in the game in exchange for some money. I value my time in the game enough to give them MORE money to allow me to shortcut time spent.

 

It's obviously controversial. The feeling I get is that by allowing time to be shortcut for any player then somehow the time spent by any other player who didn't has less intrinsic value.

 

Your PAYING THEM FOR A SERVICE, you already get the value in the set of rules the service exposes.

I like this service. I will keep paying for it because it's fun for me. I would pay more for a shortcut service.

 

Its obviously

Its easy to do, and Im going to play the warzones anyway

 

Just because you pay for a service doesn't mean they should cater to your every whim. You also said that you would like to shortcut the system again just because you can throw morw money doesn't give you a right ti a shortcut.

 

Id also like to point out that time spent does in fact equal reward, meaning that the system in places requires time to achieve a desired result. Your argument is not one of being able to get into the fray quicker, but of extreme laziness and convience.

 

Also, it's a slippery slope as well becsuse if one aspect of gearing can be bought then where does ir end? Yes, people have lives but an mmo requires time and if you can't commit sorry for you. But BW is not obligated to hold your hand because you can't make time.

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

Personally I 100% agree with the OP.

It may be hard for lots of you guys to imagine this but many of us HAVE LIVES and don't have the time to grind in pvp for hours on end so we just want a less time consuming way to obtain what the people who can grind in pvp for hours on end have. Makes sense right?