OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

[demotivator]

I would partially disagree, only in so far as to state that tactical flashpoints seem to work pretty well without trinity reliance. Naturally, if raids are designed to require trinity it is needed...if not, trinity will not longer be relevant IMO.

 

That observation is entirely personal and speculative, naturally.

 

Yet boss encounters need kolto stations for those group who come with no heals. So while you can go in with no tank lack of healer has to be compensated.

Edited July 11, 2014 by demotivator

[Lotharofxev]

GW2 raiding =/= SWTOR raiding. And for that I thank the good Lord above.

[LordArtemis]

Yet boss encounters need kolto stations for those group who come with no heals. So while you can go in with no tank lack of healer has to be compensated.

 

Sure. Its a valid point I think. But still stands as evidence that the absence of trinity can be made to work by design.

 

I think that a lack of a REQUIREMENT for trinity is a good idea, but naturally folks could still choose to use it. I think that I could speculate that many believe and support the idea that it works. Though I do not like trinity myself, I also share that view.

 

I think it represents a gate to end game content for casuals however. Just my unsubstantiated view naturally.

[Draqsko]

Yet boss encounters need kolto stations for those group who come with no heals. So while you can go in with no tank lack of healer has to be compensated.

 

That and, if there is a true tank, a tactical is so dumbed down you can literally pull without stopping because the tank is going to take very little damage if they're geared for even just hm fps never mind hm ops. Did CZ labs in 20 minutes the other night, literally.. I zoned in at 9:17, and was going through the door after Rasmus at 9:37, it was like 4 DPS in god mode all the time because it's so dumbed down.. It's hard to make stuff challenging when you don't have someone that can soak up uberamounts of damage or hold aggro instead of a boss playing ping pong on everyone.

[thewitchdoctor]

GW2 raiding =/= SWTOR raiding. And for that I thank the good Lord above.

 

This would officially be a sidebar, so sorry in advance.

 

I have heard this before. Why? What is it about GW2 raids that are bad?

[Jandi]

I would partially disagree, only in so far as to state that tactical flashpoints seem to work pretty well without trinity reliance. Naturally, if raids are designed to require trinity it is needed...if not, trinity will not longer be relevant IMO.

 

That observation is entirely personal and speculative, naturally.

 

But tactical FP's are boring as all hell. Each and every one of them is mindnumbingly stupid and easy.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Jandi

[slafko]

I wonder what happened to "oh this is a nice person to play with, i'll put him on the friend list and will ask him to play together again next time".

What happened is the Friends List being character-based instead of account (legacy) based. Current implementation of the Friends List leaves a lot to be desired. Had it been implemented on a legacy-wide level, people would use much, much more.

Supposedly, while the game is not designed for a trinity, the player base has effectively mandated one by requiring people to fill the tank, healer, and DPS roles. Which says a lot, if true, about the MMO genre and what we players do in game vs what some say on forums.

That's exactly what happenned.

[Never_Hesitate]

HM FPs and SM ops are just way to boring for me, that's the reason I don't PuG them anymore.

 

When I get a new char to lvl 55 I can just skip the HM FPs and jump right into the ops (because of Oricon and legacybound gear)

 

PS: Every dps complaining about there not being enough healers/tanks should consider trying these roles himself, they're really fun in group content (and you get faster invites )

 

B) don't use the trinity (guild wars 2)

 

GW2 has a trinity:

support, control, damage

 

but the lines are blurry and you can have a bit of everything in your spec/gear or you can go full into one role.

the sad part is that for most of the PvE content the damage (zerk) role is miles ahead of the other two, so fast/clean clears are only really achieved with a full zerker group

Edited July 11, 2014 by Never_Hesitate

[DarthTHC]

LOL... roll a tank

 

Be the change you wish to see in the world... er, game.

[LordArtemis]

But tactical FP's are boring as all hell. Each and every one of them is mindnumbingly stupid and easy.

 

I don't feel that way, but to be fair I would point out that I am not an end-game gamer. I consider myself casual, and rarely if ever raid. However, tacticals have had me raiding on a regular basis (if it can be called raiding naturally).

 

I think tacticals are aimed at a more casual group of folks.

[ninjonxb]

GW2 has the problem of being one massive Zerg Fest where the bads will get carried through either by good players or by the sheer number of people nuking the enemy. This is even worse than the trinity.

 

Oh, I am not saying that GW2 solution is good. I am just saying that this "problem" isn't in GW2 because it doesn't use the trinity to begin with.

 

This would officially be a sidebar, so sorry in advance.

 

I have heard this before. Why? What is it about GW2 raids that are bad?

 

GW2 does not use the trinity (healers, tanks, and dps)

 

Basically everyone in GW2 is a DPS. Some players can heal themselves.

[DrewFromPhilly]

oh look. clicker hate. trust me, its not the clicking that makes for bad players. I know plenty of binders that are awful. its what abilities you use and when and just how much of a team player you are.

 

but hey... lets hate on insignificant differences in method (because they ARE insignificant thanks to global cooldown) and ignore the real problem.

 

 

For all the talk of derpy DPS destroying group finder for the poor, unappreciated tanks and healers - the actual problem is this sentiment ^ Might not matter in the content you get into via group finder because its so faceroll easy, but then look at all of the ppl having problems with HMFP and sm ops clicking taunts or their heals and wondering why they're being utterly useless, and then deciding it has to be every one else's fault because it couldn't possibly be them. Leeching off of people who actually know what they're doing, and then attacking them when you make a mistake is the sign of a team player, is it?

Edited July 11, 2014 by DrewFromPhilly

[Justbee]

. I am thinking of these 2 DPS who refused to respect the kill order (weak first then stronger) and kept attacking the golds. I asked nicely once. Twice. Third time got me fairly irritated. There was no fourth time as I left the instance (and got a new group instantly, a competent group).

 

 

Same here, bad players, or bad behavior ? i tell twice at max....no one listening, i simply leave and get a new grp instant.

 

but the OP is right, tanking is no real fun in swtor. to many buttons to low control of adds. the problem is with stupid dds pulling or getting aggro, with a bunch of mopbs they will ran away....u cant get all back before they raped...normally the heal.

 

i dont waste m time in bad groups....and i ignore all bad players i meet

[DrewFromPhilly]

to many buttons to low control of adds...and i ignore all bad players i meet

 

Lol....

[Lorrimar]

This is why you make a Shadow or Sin tank and Force Speed + Rocket boost through everything making the derps try to keep up with you. Slingers and Snipers will cry, Sents and Maras will be forced to pop Transcendence in a futile attempt to keep up and the healers will be going "Where the hell did everyone go" after they're done collecting loot.

 

If, by some miracle, the derps manage to pull before you - fire up that Force Speed again and pull the next mob. You pull it, you tank it baby! <3

 

As you watch your health drop slowly down to 0% because you boosted to 800 meters away from your healer & he has no chance of getting within range, much less getting a heal off before you died.

 

I would partially disagree, only in so far as to state that tactical flashpoints seem to work pretty well without trinity reliance. Naturally, if raids are designed to require trinity it is needed...if not, trinity will not longer be relevant IMO.

 

That observation is entirely personal and speculative, naturally.

 

I am of the opposite opinion. I loathe tactical flash points & see them as a detriment to the game as a whole. We have a whole generation of players birthed from KDY that have not clue 1 of how to play their class in a real team setting. I further believe that many of these "KDY Grads" are the folks being described here as the people making good tanks stay the hell away from group finder.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Lorrimar

[Tsillah]

GW2 has a trinity:

support, control, damage

 

but the lines are blurry and you can have a bit of everything in your spec/gear or you can go full into one role.

the sad part is that for most of the PvE content the damage (zerk) role is miles ahead of the other two, so fast/clean clears are only really achieved with a full zerker group

 

I wouldn't call that a trinity. As you stated DPS is all you need and everybody can bring a bit of support. Control I don't see so much in PvE. It has some definition in PvP but in PvE the control is totally laughable. The boss fights in GW2 are actually what we see here in tactical flash points. Just bosses with lots of hp that take a long time to kill with barely any tactics to it. GW2 is still worse since you can basically defeat bosses by using your auto attack, dodging (which every class has) and combat ressing when someone gets one shotted.

 

GW2 basically has one class, one role and zero tactics beyond dodging out of circles. It's a generalisation but that's really 80-90% of PvE easy.

 

The problem is and remains players. Most players don't care to learn their role and how to tackle tactics. They just get overgeared with commendations so part of their stupidity is solved by having too much gear for the content. I mean how many commendation heroes do you see doing SM OPS? Full 180 gear without set bonuses and horrible stat division but more than good enough for said content. So they don't have to learn their class or role.

 

Now the FPs have one added problem. The rewards for FPs are lacking so why do them? I can do DF and DP SM with 16 man groups and get actual decent gear. FPs only drop crap. No set bonuses, most of the gear has crit or alacrity on it and is basically useless.

 

Honestly, I don't understand why people even do FPs at level 55. The rewards are poor and you have much better alternatives with SM OPS. Don't have a lot of time? Just do a weekly like EV HM or SAV SM. Takes about 30-40 mins and you get better rewards than doing those FPs.

[DrewFromPhilly]

GW2 doesn't shine in PVE at all, but the open world PVP is by far and away better than anything in SWTOR pvp wise.

[Jeweledleah]

For all the talk of derpy DPS destroying group finder for the poor, unappreciated tanks and healers - the actual problem is this sentiment ^ Might not matter in the content you get into via group finder because its so faceroll easy, but then look at all of the ppl having problems with HMFP and sm ops clicking taunts or their heals and wondering why they're being utterly useless, and then deciding it has to be every one else's fault because it couldn't possibly be them. Leeching off of people who actually know what they're doing, and then attacking them when you make a mistake is the sign of a team player, is it?

 

********.

 

utter and total ********.

 

but believe what you will. I'll just be in my corner quietly laughing at your narrow minded prejudices. i have a feeling that you may just be one of those people blaming others for your mistakes. becasue you cannot possibly do wrong - you BIND YOUR ABILITIES and that makes you right >_>

[Elfa]

As a tank, I really wish other tanks would stop using the "everyone treats us like crap" defense as an excuse. Tanking is one of the most difficult roles in this game since you in essence control the fight. A good tank can turn around a bad scenario pretty easily if they know their role. On the other hand, a tank can also ruin an encounter if they think they can tank everything and anything without thinking of the rest of the group.

 

Being a DPS and Healer is relatively easy in comparison and so while there are more of both, percentage wise, Tanks have the most bad players. It's easy to blame DPS when there are two of them vs heals and tanks in any FP, but a dumb DPS isn't nearly as detrimental as a dumb tank. The problem is that we have so many bad players trying their hand at the role not realizing its difficulty and then they wreck the place.

[Aries_cz]

GW2 doesn't shine in PVE at all, but the open world PVP is by far and away better than anything in SWTOR pvp wise.

 

Yes, SWTOR does not have awesome OW PvP, which is sad, as the story plays right into that. It got ruined partly by the engine taking a lot of processing power to do PvP in early days (it seems better now), but mainly by players that tried to cheese the system by kill trading, etc. However, PvP is not a topic of this discussion, so please, let's take it to the PvP forums.

[Kalfear]

Yet boss encounters need kolto stations for those group who come with no heals. So while you can go in with no tank lack of healer has to be compensated.

 

Sure they need them when no healer but been in plenty of tactical groups that are 2 healers/2 dps or 3 dps/1 healer where group completely ignores the kolto stations and play the tactical as is.

 

Actually tactical s just re enforce my original statement as you rarely see a tank in a tactical PUG. 19 times outta 20 its a mix of healers and DPS.

 

Which just showcases the lack of tanks puging

 

Personally I love the tactical flash points but do wish they would make them doable with out tanks so players who want the hard modes can do them.

[Lotharofxev]

Sure they need them when no healer but been in plenty of tactical groups that are 2 healers/2 dps or 3 dps/1 healer where group completely ignores the kolto stations and play the tactical as is.

 

Personally I love the tactical flash points but do wish they would make them doable with out tanks so players who want the hard modes can do them.

 

Huh? Your statements contradict one another.

[Kalfear]

Same here, bad players, or bad behavior ? i tell twice at max....no one listening, i simply leave and get a new grp instant.

 

but the OP is right, tanking is no real fun in swtor. to many buttons to low control of adds. the problem is with stupid dds pulling or getting aggro, with a bunch of mopbs they will ran away....u cant get all back before they raped...normally the heal.

 

i dont waste m time in bad groups....and i ignore all bad players i meet

 

so completely agree with this post!

 

Glad to see someone who got what I was saying

 

Though to be honest Im personally much more forgiving in bad groups and will stick it out trying to make it work

But thats me

I completely understand when someone bolts after a few screw up that should and could be avoided

 

Players I have never understood are the

"Oh you made 1 mistake, Im going to rage quit now"

LOL who here has never made a mistake?

Hell I been here since closed beta and still occasionally just have a brain fart for some unknown reason!

I just apologize for it (taking full responsibility for my own screw up) and move forward

[Kalfear]

Huh? Your statements contradict one another.

 

really dont

so no clue what your trying to say

[Daekarus]

I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't queue because of bad pugging experiences, but I'd be willing to be the real systemic reason why there are fewer tanks in all games is... wait for it... they kill things slower and their emphasis isn't on being the biggest ****** in the room. It's that simple.

 

The fact that it's harder is only part of it - this is a very human, emotional decision being made by players, and it's not based on GF experience or because it's too inconvenient to swap specs.... it's because more people think its really cool and fun to beat the ever loving crap out of baddies than it is to be the punching bag that makes it so everyone else can beat up the baddies.

 

It's that simple.