OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

[Kalfear]

THERE IS NO TANKS!

 

EA, you really need to do something here because in 12 hours of playing today the HM GF popped 2 times

 

and both times were a wash

1st one we got Mando raiders, everything was going great, great group working togather, but tank discos just after pulling bonus boss. Hour later in que for replacement tank we called it and went our seperate ways.

 

2nd one was just bad group. Healer wasnt prepared for level of healing required in a hardmode. So after 3 wipes he rage quit and as it was late everyone just called it.

 

Yesterday in 8 hours of play, 0 hm group pops

 

The problem is tanks. No one wants to play them. And the few that are out there get gobbled up by guilds because no one wants to play the class.

 

Cant blame them either. I leveled a guardian to 50 last year and the class was a freaking nightmare to handle with 1000 buttons to manage.

I havent tried Shado/Assasin tanks or Vangard/Power Tech tanks yet so dont know if they any good. So cant comment (please note Vangard and Shado Tank are my next 2 classes to be leveled up, once im done with my current inquiz and sniper (I want legacy force lightning and legacy agents ability)

 

But its very clear there is a massive shortage / discrepancy in game of tank class players (hell I know some Vangards and Guardians who leveled up fully intending to be tanks only to switch to dps after the fact because of demands on class.

 

Really think you need to redesign your tank specs so they dont overwelm players and more players feel strong enough to play them (normally its healers that of shortage in MMORPGs. This literally first game where healers were not the rarity ) or redesign your flash points so off speced players can successfully tank them.

 

Im not looking for a hand out here BTW. HardMode should be hard.

But I have zero control over people wanting to play a class or spec.

But Im definitely being punished for it

 

that 3 hm weekly quest may as well be 1 hm weekly quest because every day later into week the chances of getting a hard mode GF pop is lessened. If people not doing them the first day of new week when reset happens, they certainly not doing them day 5 or 7 of week when its well known there are less and less players in the gf pool to draw from.

 

Adjust the classes to make them more appealing

or

adjust the HM flashpoints to make them doable with out full on tank

(PS, if you offered up saved multi specs so someone could switch instantly along with alternative gear tabs so a DPS class could switch to tank mode (with out having to respect and reassemble hot bar and everything) and switch to Tank gear in a click of a tab (Rift and other games do it already btw), I think this might alleviate the problem until you can come up with a full time solution.

 

Your tank specs clearly are not passing the smell test for the player base.

 

I know I want to earn Ultimate coms and have zero interest in doing the whole Raiding guild nonsense again. Id much rather do a few hardmode flash points then do a ops/raid.

 

But that doesn't seem to likely at this moment in time

[slafko]

The problem is tanks.

Wrong.

 

The problem is people blaming the tanks for everything bad. To make matters worse, there's way too many jump-monkeys and badly skilled players that think they're good. Also, I've noticed an increase in bad attitudes - refusing to listen, drama queens, bullies, insults.

 

Take all this into account and you have your answer why there aren't any tanks in GF. Regular, casual, players get discouraged and avoid confrontation. The stubborn ones, like me, have their ignore lists full. I have three tanks, a healer and two dps on Rep side on my server and I update their ignore lists regularly.

 

It's not the tanks. It's people's attitudes and actions towards tanks.

[demotivator]

First of all you seem to be playing as a DPS since you were looking for a tank then heals. Waiting for a group, such is the life of a DPS. If you don't want to wait that long you know what you can do.

 

Secondly,

 

Cant blame them either. I leveled a guardian to 50 last year and the class was a freaking nightmare to handle with 1000 buttons to manage.

 

I think you got it wrong. if there is a shortage of tank that's not due to these "1000 buttons hard to manage" (which is also wrong) but the fault of all these stupid DPS who have no idea what they are doing and refuse to listen to the tank's advices (kill order, letting the tank pull, when to LOS, etc.)

 

I have just leveled a second tank during this double XP week (and reached lvl 54), I can't tell you the nightmare I lived when queueing for the various flashpoints. I am thinking of these 2 DPS who refused to respect the kill order (weak first then stronger) and kept attacking the golds. I asked nicely once. Twice. Third time got me fairly irritated. There was no fourth time as I left the instance (and got a new group instantly, a competent group).

 

The lack of good players who know their class and their role in a group is the reason why most tanks refuse to PUG.

Edited July 10, 2014 by demotivator

[Warrgames]

Wrong.

 

The problem is people blaming the tanks for everything bad. To make matters worse, there's way too many jump-monkeys and badly skilled players that think they're good. Also, I've noticed an increase in bad attitudes - refusing to listen, drama queens, bullies, insults.

 

Take all this into account and you have your answer why there aren't any tanks in GF. Regular, casual, players get discouraged and avoid confrontation. The stubborn ones, like me, have their ignore lists full. I have three tanks, a healer and two dps on Rep side on my server and I update their ignore lists regularly.

 

It's not the tanks. It's people's attitudes and actions towards tanks.

I think you got it wrong. if there is a shortage of tank that's not due to these "1000 buttons hard to manage" (which is also wrong) but the fault of all these stupid DPS who have no idea what they are doing and refuse to listen to the tank's advices (kill order, letting the tank pull, when to LOS, etc.)

 

The lack of good players who know their class and their role in a group is the reason why most tanks refuse to PUG.

I would like to add

-Player not telling the group it is their 1st time in that HM and wiping the group and then telling the group its their 1st.

-Knockback *******. The guys that run up and use their knockback all the time, instead of their other AoE.

 

3 Imp and 2 Rep geared tanks that I don't run 55 HM on because of what was quoted. I love playing tanks and healers but bad players is why I don't queue for GF.

3 Imp and 1 Rep geared healers.

 

Player (mainly DPS) should learn to group.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Warrgames

[ValeGreiger]

Other two posters pretty much summed up my grief. I play a shadow tank (leveled it during 2bl exp but made sure to gear up decently as I leveled along). I've had tankinels, dps healers, "my way or the highway" players, impatient ones. While I love to shadow tank (and I'm planning to make a sin tank) because its fun and I feel like I'm pretty good at, every time I queue, I have to draw in breath.

 

It sucks to say this but to all future and current tanks: you need tough skin. You also need to speak up (politely) when your teammates are screwing around or long time players think they can do a better job than you because they're not the ones tanking: you are. As long as you do your job right, meaning taking aggro and paying attention to each combat situation, the role of other teammates is to follow your lead and your tanking style. If they don't like it, too bad. Many times I've had requested people to kick me because they would not listen at all and continuously make what was supposed to be a normal/easy flashpoint into total nintendo-hard chore.

[Icestar]

-Player not telling the group it is their 1st time in that HM and wiping the group and then telling the group its their 1st.

-Knockback *******. The guys that run up and use their knockback all the time, instead of their other AoE.

 

YES!

 

I always ask in a pug before we start a boss in a PUG OPS or FP if they need information or strategy. For some strange reason some still click ready and think that they can manage anyway, and the group whipes and tank leaves.

 

It is so important to say if someone is new to a boss and to know how knockback works. I have seen it so many times when the rest of us uses normal AoE only to see the mobs pushed away by someone claiming they do much better dps by knocking mobs away.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Icestar

[Kulyok]

I tried levelling up three tanks, and I just couldn't. I want to walk around Tatooine like a breeze and kill stuff quickly, not end up in a long boring grind. They kill too slowly, compared to the dps tree. I suspect many regular casual players just feel like me - though, yes, we have to pay with long, long, looooong group finder queues, but playing a role that's absolutely not for me/doesn't work as well in solo content would take the fun out of the game entirely.

[PavSalco]

A tank Juggernaut is fun to play, so I disagree with the opinions saying that the tank class needs improvement. It was my first character in SWTOR and I keep playing him as my main. The problem lies within people. People don't want to take the tank's responsibility.

 

However I don't mind if tanks get a new skill like damage/stun AOE Force Choke

[tharbison]

I feel your pain OP. I was queued as dps for regular SM FP Red Reaper last night. It took 75 mins. Even worse was I disconnected like 2 mobs before the final boss.

 

I normally play tank or heals and typically don't have to wait long for GF FP queues. I was pretty shocked when I rolled my Assault Specialist dps Vanguard and queues started taking 45 mins or longer.

Edited July 10, 2014 by tharbison

[demotivator]

I would like to add

-Player not telling the group it is their 1st time in that HM and wiping the group and then telling the group its their 1st.

-Knockback *******. The guys that run up and use their knockback all the time, instead of their other AoE.

 

How have I forgotten knockbacks?

 

Again during this double XP week, I had this sorc that kept using his knockback. At one point I asked him to please stop knocking the enemies out of AOE. And I got this reply: "AOE are useless" (I am honestly not sure if he was trolling or serious) and he obviously continued to use his knockback.

Edited July 10, 2014 by demotivator

[DarthTHC]

THERE IS NO TANKS!

 

EA, you really need to do something here because in 12 hours of playing today the HM GF popped 2 times...blah blah blah rant rant...

 

 

If only there were some way players could solve that problem for themselves, like by rolling tanks and queuing into GF with them.

 

Or, alternatively, by performing so well as a Damage Dealer that tanks and healers happily add them to their friends lists and ask them if they'd like to group because they're such a pleasure to group with.

 

It's such a shame that the game prevents that.

 

Oh... wait....

[Draqsko]

More people would play tanks if less people would blame tanks for mistakes THEY make. Tanking in this game isn't difficult, there isn't 1000 buttons to push, it's more 8-12, with a few situational skills that you can get away with just clicking instead of keybinding. The only thing that makes tanking difficult is dealing with idiots that would even drive Jesus into a fit of rage. BW please make it so that I can queue as a tank with a healer friend for LFG HM FP and use our DPS companions instead of having to get DerPS that perform worse than companions would.

 

Oh and BW already did something for you, it's called Tactical Flashpoints, you get elite comms for it now in LFG.. They already lowered the bar for you, and it sounds like you or someone in your group has pissed off enough tanks that it's coming back to bite them now. Ignore is a powerful tool to maintain the sanity of us tanks, if you don't want to listen to us well we don't have to get stuck in a group with you.

[Warrgames]

How have I forgotten knockbacks?

 

Because the listed of annoying things DPS does is 1000 times longer than the listed of things they do right. Its easy to forget a couple.

[Daekarus]

This has been hashed out many times, but I don't see a viable solution that doesn't also kill the trinity. Just like in all multiplayer games, the biggest problem in swtor is the players, and their inability to see value in anything except how fast things die. How they never noticed tanks and healers soloing content they couldn't dream of I have no idea...

 

I only have one character I'm playing at endgame at the moment, but when I pick another it will be another tank. Insta-pop queues for real FPs is too good to pass up, and survivability for my derpier moments is fantastic.

[hooty]

Have to agree with the responders. It's not a "tanks are too hard to play" problem. It's a "bad attitude dps make tanks not want to queue" problem, or a "tanks don't need to PUG to get what they want, so why subject themselves to bad attitude dps" problem.

[tharbison]

Are there stats anywhere that shows the popularity of each class? I'd be curious to see if there really is a higher proportion of dps to tanks. Edited July 10, 2014 by tharbison

[Daekarus]

Are there stats anywhere that shows the popularity of each class? I'd be curious to see if there really is a higher proportion of dps to tanks.

 

I don't have numbers for you, but when they released that initial 16-man Ops group finder (so two tanks if I remember correctly) they said that getting two tanks was usually the limiting factor. I don't know many healers are usually in an Op, but that says to me a 4:1 ratio or something.

[hooty]

And don't get me started on knockbacks..... Nothing says "I have no awareness of how to work as a team" like misuse/overuse of knockbacks.

[ekwalizer]

First of all, there is NO shortage of Tanks in this game. The only shortage is that bad players frustrate Tanks to the point that no amount of incentives will entice them to Group Finder queue. That isn't the Tanks problem, that is the bad (mainly) DPS problem.

 

I play every variety of tank and I enjoy tanking on them all. There most certainly are not 1000 buttons to keep up with. As a Tank you should have a rotation of about 4-5 abilities after your opener.

 

What I will grant you is that both Tank and Healers are under-represented in terms of Tree specs. There are 3 Tanks per side and 3 Healers per side while DPS boasts 18 trees available to them.

Edited July 10, 2014 by ekwalizer

[BlackflameSeven]

This comes up again and again and again. It's not just this game, every MMO I've played has the same problem. And the chaos that is KDY has made thing worse, as far as I'm concerned. People level their dps in a situation where a tank isn't required (although it still makes things better), and then go into a real FP and play the same.

 

I have 6 tank capable toons at 55, 2 Guardians, 2 Juggernauts, 1 Shadow and one Assassin. Right now, none are tank specced. They all have tank gear ranging from enough for a 55 HM up to enough for HM Ops if not NiM, but I have stopped playing them except in very rare circumstance when my guild needs me to swap.

 

The last one to try was the second Jugg, first 55 HM was a Cad run, I was geared just about enough, but there was a sniper in 180+ who pulled every pack, and a healer in 180+ gear who could keep him alive. I asked the sniper to let me tank, no reply, I whispered the healer to not heal him and try to force him to let me do my job, no reply. So I left the FP.

 

Even if a dps CAN cope with it, they are spoiling the run for the person who actually wants to tank. I am now on 14 55s, 2 healer specced and 12 dps atm. So when I play a dps, I allow the tank to pull, I wait a couple of seconds, and then I hunt the weaker mobs, chase anything heading for the healer, and ensure that as far as I can, everyone in the group is doing the role they signed up for.

 

WoW tried rewards for roles that were lacking, and it did help. If I had an hour before a raid and the bonus bag was up for a tank, I would sometimes go help. A close to BiS raid tank jumping into the queue in the hope of a dragon mount or at worst some extra cash for helping out. And how did the dps players respond to Blizzard? Did they thank them for improving the situation? Did they hell, they swarmed the forums in droves complaining that the bonus bag was never lit up for dps toons, it was unfair that tanks and sometimes healers got something extra. Those who explained that the bonus for the dps was shorter queues got flamed into oblivion.

 

There is only one thing that will help the queues, and that's for the players to behave better and encourage people to tank. I know so many who tried once or twice and gave up, abused for not being overgeared and knowing the tactics perfectly by arrogant dps (and sometimes healers, but rarer) who wont take on the responsibility themselves. Back seat drivers...

[ekwalizer]

Have to agree with the responders. It's not a "tanks are too hard to play" problem. It's a "bad attitude dps make tanks not want to queue" problem, or a "tanks don't need to PUG to get what they want, so why subject themselves to bad attitude dps" problem.

 

This all day long

[thewitchdoctor]

Are there stats anywhere that shows the popularity of each class? I'd be curious to see if there really is a higher proportion of dps to tanks.

 

I don't know of any stats but the 'proof is in the pudding.'

 

What role has the longest wait time in the group finder queue? DPS. Who has the fastest? Tank, some days healer.

 

So whose population is higher? DPS. Whose lower? Tanks and healers.

[wainot-keel]

I tried levelling up three tanks, and I just couldn't. I want to walk around Tatooine like a breeze and kill stuff quickly, not end up in a long boring grind. They kill too slowly, compared to the dps tree. I suspect many regular casual players just feel like me - though, yes, we have to pay with long, long, looooong group finder queues, but playing a role that's absolutely not for me/doesn't work as well in solo content would take the fun out of the game entirely.

 

Field respec.

With my powertech the solo questing with Mako I do it as dps. Even with a shield and tanking enhancements the dps is good enough and kill thing fast. If join for a heroic or flashpoint, I switch back to tanking.

With my guardian I don't even bother switching back and forth, since Kira does good enough dps.

[ninjonxb]

There is NOT a damn thing that Bioware cam do to fix this.

Cross server queues would not fix it since I would wager that most servers have roughly the same ratio of tanks:healers:dps

 

The real problem is moronic DPS.

I tank (and lead) a progression raid group(all 3 classes). I never take my tank into a random group.

 

Way to often DPS will Pull, stand in stupid, break CC, stand there attacking the wall, or any other stupid *** thing you can think of.

 

Do tanks and healers do stupid ****... sure it happens, we are all human. But DPS are the worse.

 

And it makes sense. DPS just have to stand there, keep bashing the enemy and look pretty doing it.

 

While the healers have to keep everyone alive (and desperately try to recover from stupid people).

And tanks have to get agro and hope that the DPS burn down the same enemy (and try to recover when a DPS tries to pull)

 

In my opinion, in the vast majority of fights. if you have competent players (not pugs) a tank's job is the easiest. (some fights this is not the case).

 

 

TLDR: I know many tanks (myself included) who don't step foot into GF thanks for moronic DPS.

[MillionsKNives]

I agree with all of the other posters here. Two other things I'd like to add though.

 

1) I hate healers that have no clue how threat and guard work demanding guards.

 

I was recently kicked from a leveling flashpoint on my shadow after the healer demanded that I guard him even though he never took aggro once. When I told him healers don't get guard and that he doesn't understand how it works he said that he "HAS A TANK", as if that tells me anything other than him being a bad tank. He then stopped healing me. Because he stopped healing me I kept dying, then the DPS chimed in saying "your gear's bad you keep dying, he's doing the best he can to keep you up", not noticing that I wasn't receiving a single heal. Watching him he was running around saber striking enemies and using telekinetic throw. This would also flow over into the "healers that dps instead of heal suck" category.

 

My guildy has had a healer ragequit before because he refused to guard him. It's insane.

 

2) Commendation gear for tanks is awful.

 

There is no reason for me to get comms on my tanks except to gear my companions. Everything about them is awful and I'd do much better to gear myself out through operations than to wear anything from the comm vendor. That being the case, there's very little reason for me to run flashpoints for comms when I have no use for comms.

Edited July 10, 2014 by MillionsKNives