Carnage Marauder in PVP - Seems To Be In A Good Spot.

[Maudril]

Background. Started playing Carnage Marauder in PVP yesterday. I played Rage briefly to gain Obroan Relics for PVE before that, got some good experience with Carnage's rotation along with helpful advice from my Cousin on Carnage. Lots of Dummytests to see what I can do to play to Carnage's signature advantage: Frequent and deadly bursts

No PVP gear, so I used rating 148 gear (blue 28's). I crafted most of them to the usual carnage setup. Next to no crit, as much surge and power as possible. No Augments aside from the Obroan Relics. (1938 EXP with not terrible stats)

I decided to try Carnage to see what all the whining was about. I was not wholly optimistic.

 

 

I am guarding the eastern node at the start of the match... I was frustrated as the Deception Assassin on our team declined such a privilege to go zerg center. I wanted to help the team zerg in with a Bloodlust to help us cap it quickly, but whatever. Playing as a Vengeance Juggernaut before made me despise nodeguarding, as well played Deception Assassins had this way of sort of lauging at my ED (and saber reflect if they are clever).

I'm sitting there, building Fury so I can berserk on the first one I see. Concealment Operative opens up. I don't think he was that good. He opened up with HS, I pop Force Camo, open back up, he darts me around the time I leap in, FB after my battering Assault (DOT breaks it), I Massacre, during the animation I pop Berserk and Gore, Then Ravage, clip it with Force Scream, Massacre, Vicious Throw.. and he's dead.

 

O.o

 

So after two matches, I was getting no less than 10 medals per round as Carnage, even when we were getting vaped. I pick my targets well (Healers beware, DT debuff is no joke) excellent team utility (Starting off the initial rush for mid with Bloodthirst is not to be underestimated), and the burst to make Vital roles pay dearly for the mistake of leaving me in melee range for 4 seconds.

Even if Vengeance's HP DCD makes them more defensible, in a PVP setting Carnage's burst is far out of their league. The Meta is Burst. Vengeance's survivablity over Carnage is debatable, but even if it is objectively better Carnage is objectively better from an offensive perspective.

You aren't going to burst down a busy operative healer as a Vengeance Juggernaut, you aren't going to burst through that PT's Kolto Overload, you aren't going to make that Sorc's Force Barrier buff look like nothing. You are not going to make any given class lose most of its HP pool as a penalty for leaving you in melee range for 4 seconds as a Vengeance Juggernaut.

In a team setting, Carnage is even more fearsome. Pair Carnage up with a tank, few will be able to stand against you. Team with a Vengeance Juggernaut, nothing you two focus on will live any longer than 4 GCD's.

 

Learn to Play. Carnage is in a good spot, Undying Rage could use some help so healing them during that is beneficial in some way, but insofar as its balance to Vengeance... its in a good spot.

Sometimes I do have to bite the bullet with them and eat through their ED. Depending on how the burst favors me, that could end up being no problem (Even if its at the end its a Gored VT with Undying Rage up at 2% health). Other times I can just Mez them for most of the Duration, or if my Gore Window is up with Execute and/or VT available... I just burn right through it

 

To say that Carnage is underpowered in Warzones is admitting weakness. Read KBN's guide, learn what Carnage's damage profile is best at dropping.

Can't speak too much about the Ranked Environment, but it seems to me that Carnage is best used as part of a team, and would see more usefulness in a skilled Ranked environment.

 

I have to agree with the poster that said not too long ago something along these lines "Rage gets nerfed in PVP, after that comes a slew of threads and people insisting that Marauders are useless in PVP. Coincidence, I think not."

[shatz]

Background. Started playing Carnage Marauder in PVP yesterday. I played Rage briefly to gain Obroan Relics for PVE before that, got some good experience with Carnage's rotation along with helpful advice from my Cousin on Carnage. Lots of Dummytests to see what I can do to play to Carnage's signature advantage: Frequent and deadly bursts

No PVP gear, so I used rating 148 gear (blue 28's). I crafted most of them to the usual carnage setup. Next to no crit, as much surge and power as possible. No Augments aside from the Obroan Relics. (1938 EXP with not terrible stats)

I decided to try Carnage to see what all the whining was about. I was not wholly optimistic.

 

 

I am guarding the eastern node at the start of the match... I was frustrated as the Deception Assassin on our team declined such a privilege to go zerg center. I wanted to help the team zerg in with a Bloodlust to help us cap it quickly, but whatever. Playing as a Vengeance Juggernaut before made me despise nodeguarding, as well played Deception Assassins had this way of sort of lauging at my ED (and saber reflect if they are clever).

I'm sitting there, building Fury so I can berserk on the first one I see. Concealment Operative opens up. I don't think he was that good. He opened up with HS, I pop Force Camo, open back up, he darts me around the time I leap in, FB after my battering Assault (DOT breaks it), I Massacre, during the animation I pop Berserk and Gore, Then Ravage, clip it with Force Scream, Massacre, Vicious Throw.. and he's dead.

 

O.o

 

So after two matches, I was getting no less than 10 medals per round as Carnage, even when we were getting vaped. I pick my targets well (Healers beware, DT debuff is no joke) excellent team utility (Starting off the initial rush for mid with Bloodthirst is not to be underestimated), and the burst to make Vital roles pay dearly for the mistake of leaving me in melee range for 4 seconds.

Even if Vengeance's HP DCD makes them more defensible, in a PVP setting Carnage's burst is far out of their league. The Meta is Burst. Vengeance's survivablity over Carnage is debatable, but even if it is objectively better Carnage is objectively better from an offensive perspective.

You aren't going to burst down a busy operative healer as a Vengeance Juggernaut, you aren't going to burst through that PT's Kolto Overload, you aren't going to make that Sorc's Force Barrier buff look like nothing. You are not going to make any given class lose most of its HP pool as a penalty for leaving you in melee range for 4 seconds as a Vengeance Juggernaut.

In a team setting, Carnage is even more fearsome. Pair Carnage up with a tank, few will be able to stand against you. Team with a Vengeance Juggernaut, nothing you two focus on will live any longer than 4 GCD's.

 

Learn to Play. Carnage is in a good spot, Undying Rage could use some help so healing them during that is beneficial in some way, but insofar as its balance to Vengeance... its in a good spot.

Sometimes I do have to bite the bullet with them and eat through their ED. Depending on how the burst favors me, that could end up being no problem (Even if its at the end its a Gored VT with Undying Rage up at 2% health). Other times I can just Mez them for most of the Duration, or if my Gore Window is up with Execute and/or VT available... I just burn right through it

 

To say that Carnage is underpowered in Warzones is admitting weakness. Read KBN's guide, learn what Carnage's damage profile is best at dropping.

Can't speak too much about the Ranked Environment, but it seems to me that Carnage is best used as part of a team, and would see more usefulness in a skilled Ranked environment.

 

I have to agree with the poster that said not too long ago something along these lines "Rage gets nerfed in PVP, after that comes a slew of threads and people insisting that Marauders are useless in PVP. Coincidence, I think not."

 

Vengeance Juggernub tries his carnage marauderp for a day, beats somebody in a duel and decides it is perfectly fine Only scrubs eat the first gore rotation.

 

My issues with Carnage:

-Easy to counter

-Easy to counter

-Easy to counter

-Very poor proc system

-The Undying Rage nerf

 

All classes can counter gore with multiple abilities. Only classes with accuracy/damage debuff cool downs can counter a jug with its stun/knock back immunity (I don't feel some form of stun & knock back immunity is the answer).

 

I suggest getting a gear set and trying your luck in solo ranked. It is very frustrating to lose a solo ranked match because your cool downs and escapes are drastically inferior to your opponents (Yes other classes have this same issue not just Maras ).

[Aehgo]

lol that operative you beat was terrible then....

[JP_Legatus]

Vengeance's survivablity over Carnage is debatable, but even if it is objectively better Carnage is objectively better from an offensive perspective.

 

To be fair this applies to every spec in the game. There is no other class or spec that can kill someone from full HP in 3 globals by himself regardless of what you do on your other spes/classes.

 

Also, give your sin buddy a break, we've been guarding nodes for 2 *********** years and finally have a viable dps spec, let him go have some fun for a ****in change Tell your PT to go guard the node, or your operative or even sometimes your sorc for a little while if he's got both breakers. Sins need a damn break. It's a real shame bioware cornered the entire assassin community into not playing for the majority of most pvp matches. No other class has had to be forced to not play the game for as long as sins.

 

Except for mercenary, the poor fellas.

Edited July 1, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Maudril]

Vengeance Juggernub tries his carnage marauderp for a day, beats somebody in a duel and decides it is perfectly fine Only scrubs eat the first gore rotation.

 

My issues with Carnage:

-Easy to counter

-Easy to counter

-Easy to counter

-Very poor proc system

-The Undying Rage nerf

 

All classes can counter gore with multiple abilities. Only classes with accuracy/damage debuff cool downs can counter a jug with its stun/knock back immunity (I don't feel some form of stun & knock back immunity is the answer).

 

I suggest getting a gear set and trying your luck in solo ranked. It is very frustrating to lose a solo ranked match because your cool downs and escapes are drastically inferior to your opponents (Yes other classes have this same issue not just Maras ).

 

You speak as though more than half of Vengeance's ravages are guarded by unstoppable. This is amusing.

And Vengeance's Ravages can't be countered?

They're just rooted, with Unstoppable up only the first two ticks are protected(after a force leap, which happens at most twice every two engagements). You don't have to take the third tick. You don't have have to take the first tick of pretty much any subsequent ravage. The one after the leap is the only one with the first two ticks guarded by unstoppable.

 

You know what hits harder than the first two ticks for a Ravage? A gored Force scream, which is pretty hard to avoid (Gore is off GCD, so your enemy needs telepathy to know when you got a FS lined up)

 

The way it looks to me is that the Juggernaut is the more steady, survivable DPS and the Marauder has more burstey survivablility but can put out more damage in the same amount of time.

 

If Carnage was as survivable and consistent as Vengeance, Vengeance would be useless by comparison.

 

I played Vengeance a lot longer than Carnage, my short time in Carnage so far shows greater damage potential in Unaugged Bolstered gear than Vengeance did when he had the augged, unranked PVP set of the time (I got him to Valor 60 when Conqueror was the gear of the time, left PVP after that. Some Obroan gear was in the mix).

Vengeance is probably more survivable than Carnage (Wouldnt really know, I stopped PVPing on my jug before the ED buff). I *know* it doesnt have that damage output, so Carnage being less survivable than Vengeance sounds like good balance.

 

And FTR I am *far* from the best marauder, I suspect my damage output will increase as I learn how to counter the other classes, and learn to recognize my opportune moments are.

[Maudril]

To be fair this applies to every spec in the game. There is no other class or spec that can kill someone from full HP in 3 globals by himself regardless of what you do on your other spes/classes.

 

Also, give your sin buddy a break, we've been guarding nodes for 2 *********** years and finally have a viable dps spec, let him go have some fun for a ****in change Tell your PT to go guard the node, or your operative or even sometimes your sorc for a little while if he's got both breakers. Sins need a damn break. It's a real shame bioware cornered the entire assassin community into not playing for the majority of most pvp matches. No other class has had to be forced to not play the game for as long as sins.

 

Except for mercenary, the poor fellas.

 

Woops, I left out a word. "Even if Vengeance Juggernauts have objectively better survivability than Carnage, Carnage's damage output seems to make up for that"

 

Sin was in Surging Charge, Deception, I know better than to ask a squishy DOT spec to nodeguard. Madness sins dont seem like good nodeguards. The way it was explained to me Snipers, Deception Sins, Conc Operatives, Madness Sorcs, Pyro PT's, and Vengeance Jugs(now, they sucked at it while I was playing it) are the good nodeguards. Carnage maras I've never heard because I almost believed the QQ of the maras here on the forums.

 

Someone saying "A large portion of Carnage's damage comes from Ravage on Gore" should have been my first clue that good Carnage Marauders are rare, even on the forums. Hell yea you are going to feel shut down if you are going to *rely* on a Gored Ravage outside of Berserk.

[chosonman]

Mara/Sent suck at the moment. Hands down the weakest class in the game pvp. Just because you beat a scrub op does not mean anything. I play my guardian, shadow, scoundrel, sage, vanguard, sniper all day long before I would touch my sentinel again. Guarded by the force sucks it shoukd be renamed "use before dying" DoT buffs just add to the pain, stuns when were trying to get proc up suck. Stun lock sucks. The class suckds right now.

[AngusFTW]

Mara/Sent suck at the moment. Hands down the weakest class in the game pvp. Just because you beat a scrub op does not mean anything. I play my guardian, shadow, scoundrel, sage, vanguard, sniper all day long before I would touch my sentinel again. Guarded by the force sucks it shoukd be renamed "use before dying" DoT buffs just add to the pain, stuns when were trying to get proc up suck. Stun lock sucks. The class suckds right now.

well you said you do 300-500k per wz as a sentinel in another thread so i'm not surprised you think they suck.. but i don't think its the class thats the problem

[JackNader]

There is nothing wrong with carnage. The problem lies with the "unreasonable and senseless overbuffing" of other classes.

 

eg.

Vengeance

 

a)Gave ravage a predictable 12 second cooldown.

b)Gave ravage a root

c)Gave the entire jug class a second life cooldown.

 

"A" was justified.

"B" should never have occurred as it slapped counterplay square in the face.

"C" was only necessary because of all the retarded buffs to ranged classes and even then.. they took it too far. It should have had a proc rate limit of 1 second attached to it.

 

Madness sorcerer

a) Gave wrath a predictable wrath proc rate

b) buffed dot damage out the wazoo

c) made dots uncleansable.

d) gave sorcerers access to root immunity on force speed.

 

"A" was justified.

"B" and "C" are too much without giving something back.

"D" was reasonable.

 

IMO force lightning should lose its snare. The snare is too much given how much damage and kite potential the class now has.

 

Madness Assassin

 

a) made the wrath proc rate predictable

b) gave the spec a 10 second assassinate.

c) buffed dot damage out the wazoo

d) made dot damage uncleansable

 

"A" was justified

"B" is hands down too much. 20 second assassinate is fair... 10s is not.

"C" is fair only if the assassinate proc is extended. Otherwise its just too much damage.

 

The only things I would sanction for carnage is a proc rework (ONLY because every other class has undergone one) and a roll back of the undying rage changes.

Edited July 1, 2014 by JackNader

[Zeldoon]

well you said you do 300-500k per wz as a sentinel in another thread so i'm not surprised you think they suck.. but i don't think its the class thats the problem

 

Pretty much this lol.

As I said before all this Mara hate comes up after rage gets nerfed.

[JP_Legatus]

Woops, I left out a word. "Even if Vengeance Juggernauts have objectively better survivability than Carnage, Carnage's damage output seems to make up for that"

 

Sin was in Surging Charge, Deception, I know better than to ask a squishy DOT spec to nodeguard. Madness sins dont seem like good nodeguards. The way it was explained to me Snipers, Deception Sins, Conc Operatives, Madness Sorcs, Pyro PT's, and Vengeance Jugs(now, they sucked at it while I was playing it) are the good nodeguards. Carnage maras I've never heard because I almost believed the QQ of the maras here on the forums.

 

Someone saying "A large portion of Carnage's damage comes from Ravage on Gore" should have been my first clue that good Carnage Marauders are rare, even on the forums. Hell yea you are going to feel shut down if you are going to *rely* on a Gored Ravage outside of Berserk.

 

Madness sins are great node guards and juggs should certainly never guard a node, ever.

 

And yeah ravage with berserk, nobody should have trouble getting 30 fury between ravages.

 

But yeah this discussion is pointless

[chosonman]

well you said you do 300-500k per wz as a sentinel in another thread so i'm not surprised you think they suck.. but i don't think its the class thats the problem

 

Like I said they are the weakest. http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards

[AngusFTW]

Like I said they are the weakest. http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards

Yes that is the yolo queue leaderboards,

now can you please post relevant evidence?

[chosonman]

Yes that is the yolo queue leaderboards,

now can you please post relevant evidence?

 

It must be nice to be you. You can pick and choose what you like to believe. Facts are facts regardless of what you choose to accept or not.

[AngusFTW]

It must be nice to be you. You can pick and choose what you like to believe. Facts are facts regardless of what you choose to accept or not.

Same to you bro, if you think solo queue, full of stupid 4 dps games, hybrid healers, dps tanks (some of the past 2 can end up in a 4 dps game!), queue syncing, bad luck, good luck... is a good indication of class balance.

Edited July 1, 2014 by AngusFTW

[chosonman]

Same to you bro, if you think solo queue is a good indication of class balance.

 

No not just solo que BRO. The fact the others post the same **** saying Mara/Sents suck right now. The fact the a confirmed top 10 Mara player says Sent/Maras suck right now. AND the fact that in solo the top Mara/Sent player can blarely crack top 100 on the boards. So BRO.. no not the same.

[sirullrich]

Same to you bro, if you think solo queue, full of stupid 4 dps games, hybrid healers, dps tanks (some of the past 2 can end up in a 4 dps game!), queue syncing, bad luck, good luck... is a good indication of class balance.

 

Don't even take that guy seriously. He's bad and just wants to make his marauder OP. He wants everything in the vengeance tree plus he wants cc immunity after being hard stunned. Basically he will be immune to all cc for the whole match.

[Vodrin]

Like I said they are the weakest. http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards

 

Looking at group rankings though it seems like sent/mara is in a better place than mandos or sorcs.

 

The fact the a confirmed top 10 Mara player says Sent/Maras suck right now. AND the fact that in solo the top Mara/Sent player can blarely crack top 100 on the boards. So BRO.. no not the same.

 

I really believe that last bit is because most of the better PvP players have left the game and the spec has always been relatively weak when played at a mediocre level and when unsupported, both of which happen a lot right now due to the overall level of play dropping.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Vodrin

[JP_Legatus]

There is nothing wrong with carnage. The problem lies with the "unreasonable and senseless overbuffing" of other classes.

 

eg.

Vengeance

 

a)Gave ravage a predictable 12 second cooldown.

b)Gave ravage a root

c)Gave the entire jug class a second life cooldown.

 

"A" was justified.

"B" should never have occurred as it slapped counterplay square in the face.

"C" was only necessary because of all the retarded buffs to ranged classes and even then.. they took it too far. It should have had a proc rate limit of 1 second attached to it.

 

Madness sorcerer

a) Gave wrath a predictable wrath proc rate

b) buffed dot damage out the wazoo

c) made dots uncleansable.

d) gave sorcerers access to root immunity on force speed.

 

"A" was justified.

"B" and "C" are too much without giving something back.

"D" was reasonable.

 

IMO force lightning should lose its snare. The snare is too much given how much damage and kite potential the class now has.

 

Madness Assassin

 

a) made the wrath proc rate predictable

b) gave the spec a 10 second assassinate.

c) buffed dot damage out the wazoo

d) made dot damage uncleansable

 

"A" was justified

"B" is hands down too much. 20 second assassinate is fair... 10s is not.

"C" is fair only if the assassinate proc is extended. Otherwise its just too much damage.

 

The only things I would sanction for carnage is a proc rework (ONLY because every other class has undergone one) and a roll back of the undying rage changes.

 

Vengeance juggs needed a root on ravage. There's literally no point to even finishing the last tick when 10/10 times it will get interrupted somehow, least of all simply WALKING AWAY while the jugg is forced to stand there channeling. The cooldown I'm not sure about, but if they needed a damage buff then why not. The heal2full buff... yeah that **** is way over the top and is ridiculous for all jugg specs.

 

Madness sorcs were already fine before the buff, they could have maybe used some force management but otherwise they were a good spec already. The dot damage for sorcs was fine and needed no buff and uncleansable dots made no difference for sorcs since they were the ones with a force cleanse anyways. Only uncleansable dots for sins mattered as far as balancing, which is sort of a buff for sins and a nerf to sorc, as it were. The speed thing... over the top for madness but good for the other 2 specs.

 

As far as madness sins go, show me evidence that they have too much damage. They are one of the squishiest specs in all of swtor and are MELEE, they should be literally the top dps class in all of swtor, and they still aren't even after this buff. Check the pve parses.

Edited July 1, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[waterboytkd]

As a long time Carnage/Combat player, I have to agree. The class feels mostly fine in WZs, and even the rare instance when I do solo ranked.

 

The ONLY things I would like to see for Carnage/Combat are: change Slaughter so that it grants a "charge" of slaughter that automatically expends when your Gore goes on cooldown, refreshing your Gore*; and do something to Undying Rage as it's currently garbage, even if that something is to just return it to previous functionality in that the hp loss happened on activation rather than at the end of duration.

 

The first of those is simply a QoL change, while the second IS a buff, but a pretty minor one, but an utterly necessary one if GbtF/UR is to be a useful skill in PvP OR PvE.

 

*The first change is so that an unanticipated Slaughter proc on, say, your opening rage builder doesn't steal a Gore window from you.

[NvrShoutNvr]

and do something to Undying Rage as it's currently garbage, even if that something is to just return it to previous functionality.

 

i have to disagree with this. sentinels were absolutely crazy pre-UD nerf. oh you got me to < 10%, pop undying, heal me to full lol, start all over again.

 

if they were to revert it back to previous functionality in that you lose health when you pop the CD, it would be best to make it like Force Camo, and reduce all healing by 100% while UD/GBTF is active.

 

i personally think Bioware made the right decision in the UD change. This makes you actually think about using it, instead of popinvincibleh2fLOL

 

And on the topic of Vengeance vs Carnage, Vengeance burst is absolutely no match for Carnage burst. Vengeance has always been a consistent pressure spec, not too crazy in terms of damage but enough to make you keep your eye on your DCD's in case they get a lucky relic proc. whereas Carnage is the "you die in 2 globals if you dont pop your best defensive right now" spec. I have played both classes, but I have been playing exclusively Vengeance/Vigilance since 2.5 when the ravage root was introduced. I pair with a Carnage Marauder in 4's and it's a great comp. Double Carnage is also a great comp. Both specs are very viable, you just need to know what you're doing. People who say Combat/Carnage is bad have obviously never played it correctly, and people who say Jugg's are unjustifiably buffed have obviously gotten too used to farming them in ranked and don't know how to handle it when an obviously underpowered class (1.2-2.7) finally gets buffed to the point of viability.

Edited July 2, 2014 by NvrShoutNvr

[JackNader]

@Plaje

 

Yeh, vengeance needed a ravage root like I need a hole in the head. NOBODY should be "forced" to eat any other classes burst.. period. There is supposed to be counterplay. Shao'kahn and I used to play vengeance when everybody else was playing smash. I didn't have any issues with not getting my ravages off and neither did shao. The issue I had was that I could go the entire cooldown of ravage without getting a proc. This isn't the case anymore. Vengeance gets a ravage every 12 seconds. Adding a root to that is *********** ridiculous. Would you be comfortable with force lightning being uninteruptable? Oh ****, maybe that's not enough as you can still get knocked back or stunned. How about some CC immunity while channeling. Hey they can still LOS you, so let's make it root you to the spot as well.

 

Yeh, sorcerers dot cleanse made no difference even tho the most popular class has always been the sorcerer/sage. Wait a second.. if the most popular and thus, most played class can no longer cleanse dots, then that change must be significant since it affects the majority. People MELT now from all the tab dotting. Also, the reason DOT damage always hit hard as **** was because it "Could" be cleansed. Bioware simply forgot about that little piece of logic making them uncleansable and buffing the damage to boot. Smart. Oh I can't wait for them to make tech dots uncleansable too..

 

As for your madness sin comments. Look, I get you're an assassin fanboi. I really do. I get that you feel you deserve to be overpowered simply because you feel you've suffered. I also get that its quite pointless to argue with someone who is biased. Instead, let's step back and focus on the bigger picture here. Has bioware's recent buffing spree made the game more fun? Personally, no. TTk is at an all time low. The skill requirement to play this game is almost non existent. So much so that even a guy pressing tab dot can put up absurd numbers and actually be considered as contributing to the success of the team ("Falls out of chair in amazement.") Mindless CC spam is even more effective because of the reduced TTK.

 

Has biowares buff everybody approach alleviated any of the QQ on the forums? No. For every class they buff, there is someone else getting on their soapbox crying how underpowered their class is and they need an "I win" button in order to compete. The grass is always greener. This thread is a testament to that.

 

Carnage is fine. The issue is with the senseless over buffing of other classes.

Edited July 2, 2014 by JackNader

[waterboytkd]

i have to disagree with this. sentinels were absolutely crazy pre-UD nerf. oh you got me to < 10%, pop undying, heal me to full lol, start all over again.

 

Keep in mind, what you are saying here is not "UR was way too good". What you are saying is "UR was way too good with a healer on your back". Which, I might add, is true for A LOT of abilities in PvP, including healing (I still feel cross healing is the greatest evil in PvP).

 

if they were to revert it back to previous functionality in that you lose health when you pop the CD, it would be best to make it like Force Camo, and reduce all healing by 100% while UD/GBTF is active.

 

If it did something like that, it would need more extensive overhauling, I think. At least, the dropping of the hp cost, and upping the damage reduction to a full 100%.

 

i personally think Bioware made the right decision in the UD change. This makes you actually think about using it, instead of popinvincibleh2fLOL

 

only so far as you ask "is my target almost dead, too", and if the answer is yes, then you pop. if no, then you don't. It really doesn't require much brain power, and really, it only requires more brainpower than the previous functionality if you had a healer on your back.

 

Current functionality, UR/GbtF almost always precludes your death. In previous functionality, in a solo situation, it was pretty good (pop it, chug a medpac, live a little). The big problem with previous functionality was that, in conjunction with healing, it could become godmode. Especially when you considered the Rage/Focus tree, with its cooldown reduction and hp cost reduction.

 

It needs to be someplace inbetween, I guess.

[JP_Legatus]

@Plaje

 

Yeh, vengeance needed a ravage root like I need a hole in the head. NOBODY should be "forced" to eat any other classes burst.. period. There is supposed to be counterplay. Shao'kahn and I used to play vengeance when everybody else was playing smash. I didn't have any issues with not getting my ravages off and neither did shao. The issue I had was that I could go the entire cooldown of ravage without getting a proc. This isn't the case anymore. Vengeance gets a ravage every 12 seconds. Adding a root to that is *********** ridiculous. Would you be comfortable with force lightning being uninteruptable? Oh ****, maybe that's not enough as you can still get knocked back or stunned. How about some CC immunity while channeling. Hey they can still LOS you, so let's make it root you to the spot as well.

 

Yeh, sorcerers dot cleanse made no difference even tho the most popular class has always been the sorcerer/sage. Wait a second.. if the most popular and thus, most played class can no longer cleanse dots, then that change must be significant since it affects the majority. People MELT now from all the tab dotting. Also, the reason DOT damage always hit hard as **** was because it "Could" be cleansed. Bioware simply forgot about that little piece of logic making them uncleansable and buffing the damage to boot. Smart. Oh I can't wait for them to make tech dots uncleansable too..

 

As for your madness sin comments. Look, I get you're an assassin fanboi. I really do. I get that you feel you deserve to be overpowered simply because you feel you've suffered. I also get that its quite pointless to argue with someone who is biased. Instead, let's step back and focus on the bigger picture here. Has bioware's recent buffing spree made the game more fun? Personally, no. TTk is at an all time low. The skill requirement to play this game is almost non existent. So much so that even a guy pressing tab dot can put up absurd numbers and actually be considered as contributing to the success of the team ("Falls out of chair in amazement.") Mindless CC spam is even more effective because of the reduced TTK.

 

Has biowares buff everybody approach alleviated any of the QQ on the forums? No. For every class they buff, there is someone else getting on their soapbox crying how underpowered their class is and they need an "I win" button in order to compete. The grass is always greener. This thread is a testament to that.

 

Carnage is fine. The issue is with the senseless over buffing of other classes.

 

There is a lot of text to cover here so I'll just debate the key issues I see here.

 

Juggs may have gotten by without a root on ravage simply because they have cc immunity. I think I may have written the wrong argument there, I don't think it's good for both a root and cc immunity at the same time during ravage. I agree with you, there should be counter play options.

 

As for dots, they hit hard because they're dots, not because they can get cleansed. They can still be purged by 4/8 classes and frequently do, the juggs just laugh at dots as they pop ed, so it's roughly 3/8 classes who have trouble with dots, which is pretty well balanced. Operative healers literally can spam their purge every fourth or fifth global. I barely have time to apply the dots before they purge again. On top of that, burst classes will always kill faster than dot classes, and frequently do which leaves dot classes losing 70% of their damage potential when the target dies to a ravage or takedown. Dot classes get higher total damage by default because it's NOT a burst spec. Its a PRESSURE spec. Who does it pressure if it has the SAME dps as a burst spec?

 

For madness sins, I'm sorry, you're going to have to come back to reality at some point which is that madness sins are still not top dps-wise. That is just a fact. It's a squishy melee spec and isn't even burst it's DPS PRESSURE and despite those two points still isn't even the top dps spec. If you can't accept that you simply can't be reasoned with.

 

You're going to have to take a more reasonable position on some of these issues.

Edited July 2, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Vodrin]

If it did something like that, it would need more extensive overhauling, I think. At least, the dropping of the hp cost, and upping the damage reduction to a full 100%.

 

I disagree. Reduce the duration to 3 seconds, make it usable only under 35% health, and remove the health penalty entirely and you have a very usable ability that can still be countered. And for those asking BW to revert the previous change to UR/GBTF, when is the last time you can remember bioware reversing any change that made it to live no matter how poorly received? I don't see it happening, and the changes I have suggested are a reasonable alternative for a buff to the ability. Especially considering abilities need to be balanced around what the best players can do playing in a group.

 

On another note, does anyone else find it funny that mara's/sents are the only class with a counter to the jugg leap>ravage combo (Pacify and it's mirror).

Edited July 2, 2014 by Vodrin