Broken.

[Khevar]

@Grayseven,

 

In your strident defense of a business to make any decision it wants, I find myself wondering:

 

Do you believe this change to the packs, drop rates and unlock prices was a good decision or a poor decision?

 

Just because because a business is free to make any decision it wants to, doesn't mean they are infallible and all decisions will be good ones.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Khevar

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Imagine, if you will, you collect Magic: The Gathering trading cards. You have done so for years, The basic premise is always the same. In each $ 4,99 booster you get 15 cards, one rare, four uncommon, ten common.

 

Then, a new set comes out. You pick up a booster box as you normally do. Out of the box, you discover that of the 36 booster packs, 12 of them have five uncommon cards and no rares. You go on a forum and read that all over the country, people have been opening packs and seeing the same thing. You try to order singles online but as it turns out, as 'rares' are now much rarer than usual, it will cost you considerably more to complete the set.

 

Note that Wizards of the Coast, in this example, only comes forward and say they were trying something new with the rarities of the set until well after the forums flooded with the complaints. Certainly not before all the booster boxes were sold.

 

What do you think would the general consensus be if WOTC had in fact pulled the hypothetical story above? That is was, all in all, unimportant? Or, that something was terribly amiss with the way marketing handled it? I suspect the latter, myself.

Imagine EA/Bioware just gave everything away for free for a month and told their shareholders that they just wanted to be nice.

[Grayseven]

@Grayseven,

 

In your strident defense of a business to make any decision it wants, I find myself wondering:

 

Do you believe this change to the packs, drop rates and unlock prices was a good decision or a poor decision?

 

Just because because a business is free to make any decision it wants to, doesn't mean they are infallible and all decisions will be good ones.

 

In honesty, it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I simply don't care what the drop rates are, nor do I care what the unlock prices are.

 

What truly bothers me is people whining about the change as if they were promised something. Crying "broken trust" over this means that these people simply do not understand what a real broken trust is.

 

Making an assumption and blaming others when your own assumption is proven wrong is idiotic. If you don't like the change, that's fine...complain about the change and urge EA/BW to change it back. If you don't like the fact that it was changed without informing players, again that is fine, but urge EA/BW to not fiddle with the drop rates without informing us in the patch notes.

 

Do NOT start tearing at your hair and crying about lies and broken trust when no such promises were given and no information about drop rates was ever released, let alone promised that they wouldn't be changed.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Grayseven

[Technohic]

Man, I have said similar things in other threads that the OP probably defended against but I will say it again. It does not matter if Bioware deceived their customers intentionally, unintentionally or even at all. The bottom line is they pissed some off and will lose some business because of it.

 

It may not matter to you, and may be the customers fault for trusting a company to make assumptions and expecting them to be something they are not; but as we are seeing here it eventually effected someone who was less than empathetic when others were facing the same sort of disappointment in things that mattered to them.

 

It's bad for business in the long run and in this particular situation, I find poetic justice since I believe those people lost before that the OP use to ridicule might have lead to the business making this decision to try to recoup lost revenue.

 

On the flip side; I think Bioware made a good decision when they did the summer pass of 4 months for $40. I know I have been too busy with work and summer activities to play games much and I took it. They need to promote it better to their former players, though because I wouldn't have known if I wasn't actively watching the forums for changes that I might like.

[Khevar]

What truly bothers me is people whining about the change as if they were promised something. Crying "broken trust" over this means that these people simply do not understand what a real broken trust is.

It "truly" bothers you?!?

 

Can you not accept that it's merely hyperbole in an attempt to express disagreement with a business decision? If a business with customers changes a policy, and some customers disagree with the policy change, they express it.

 

It's really that simple. That's all that is happening.

[Grayseven]

It "truly" bothers you?!?

 

Can you not accept that it's merely hyperbole in an attempt to express disagreement with a business decision? If a business with customers changes a policy, and some customers disagree with the policy change, they express it.

 

It's really that simple. That's all that is happening.

 

The problem with using hyperbole in a disagreement is that it weakens your argument. If you disagree with the change, fine, but do it in a manner that uses strong arguments and facts.

 

It is a flat out lie to state that EA/BW "broke the trust" or "obfuscated". Basing your disagreement on a lie is not a strong foundation for your argument.

 

Had the OP simply stated that he didn't like the change and didn't appreciate the change being made without communication from EA/BW to the player base, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That is a valid disagreement and holds much more weight than claiming they broke trust when at no point was a promise made that could be broken.

[Reno_Tarshil]

The problem with using hyperbole in a disagreement is that it weakens your argument. If you disagree with the change, fine, but do it in a manner that uses strong arguments and facts.

 

It is a flat out lie to state that EA/BW "broke the trust" or "obfuscated". Basing your disagreement on a lie is not a strong foundation for your argument.

 

Had the OP simply stated that he didn't like the change and didn't appreciate the change being made without communication from EA/BW to the player base, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That is a valid disagreement and holds much more weight than claiming they broke trust when at no point was a promise made that could be broken.

 

I guess I should clarify some more.

 

The trust that was broken in question was my own personal trust and faith with the company that I personally defended and had good faith with.

 

Again this is just pertaining to me and no one else. The trust being broken stems from the fact that I willingly bought my first hypercrate and several more packs afterwards, unaware of the pricing of unlocks or the changed drop rates. Had they let us know before hand that they were going to experiment, I would have been okay with it since then I would be able to weigh whether or not to spend my money.

 

When I made my Bug Report it was treated at first as being looked into, if it was "Intended" like they said they woulda said that first instead of treating it like a possible bug. Getting Lied to and deceived that way would certainly break someone's trust and faith in the company, wouldn't you agree?

[Warrgames]

On the flip side; I think Bioware made a good decision when they did the summer pass of 4 months for $40. I know I have been too busy with work and summer activities to play games much and I took it. They need to promote it better to their former players, though because I wouldn't have known if I wasn't actively watching the forums for changes that I might like.

 

They really do need get it out there more.

[Khevar]

The problem with using hyperbole in a disagreement is that it weakens your argument. If you disagree with the change, fine, but do it in a manner that uses strong arguments and facts.

Of course you're right. Clear, concise statements of facts always assist one's position in a debate.

 

I just don't get why it upsets you so when this doesn't happen. And why you feel the need to insist that any business should feel free to make any decision that it wants at any time. The implication being that such decisions are beyond reproach.

 

What this does, it set you up as the opposition. You're not going to engender calmer debate in this way.

 

/shrug

[Sangrar]

They really do need get it out there more.

 

I am seeing the ads on facebook about the summer pass every few hours actually

[Reno_Tarshil]

I am seeing the ads on facebook about the summer pass every few hours actually

 

This thread is actually the first I've heard of it. Though Facebook can be weird with their page updates of pages you like.

[OddballEasyEight]

This thread is actually the first I've heard of it. Though Facebook can be weird with their page updates of pages you like.

 

Yeah, I haven't gotten any ads about it either.

I did see it over at dulfys tho... but that wasn't an ad, that was just one of her regular updates on the game.

[Technohic]

I am seeing the ads on facebook about the summer pass every few hours actually

 

Yeah; I don't do Facebook. Always seemed to be a place to air out dirty laundry at worst or hoop up with people from your past at best, and sometimes that leads to more dirty laundry.

[Grayseven]

Of course you're right. Clear, concise statements of facts always assist one's position in a debate.

 

I just don't get why it upsets you so when this doesn't happen. And why you feel the need to insist that any business should feel free to make any decision that it wants at any time. The implication being that such decisions are beyond reproach.

 

What this does, it set you up as the opposition. You're not going to engender calmer debate in this way.

 

/shrug

 

Upset probably isn't the right word. It annoys, nothing more. It annoys when people with valid arguments and previously good history of concise and correct posts revert to the somewhat trollish level of hyperbole.

 

Businesses will make decisions. They will do so without customer input. This is a given and nothing will change that. That doesn't make them beyond reproach. If you don't like the decision, you tell them. If enough customers tell them, they change because customers are the life blood of a business.

 

My only opposition is to flying off the handle about something so...insignificant. I've been in Union leadership for years and dealt with this very sort of thing, and I'm simply telling the people blowing up over something because they made assumptions the same things I tell the Union brothers I have to deal with in grievance hearings.

 

If I'm an EA/BW employing reading the OP's first post, my first inclination is to blow it off because it is hyperbole and falsity. No promise made means no promise broken, end of story.

 

As to Reno feeling slighted because he was told they would "look into it"...I imagine that the EA people that post here aren't told everything going on "in the code". They deal with generalities. If a Developer decided to tweak the numbers he might have thought the tweak so inconsequential that it wasn't worth mentioning, it may not have been discussed with others. It may have been something as simple as "We're trying something new with the packs" without being specific.

 

My opposition in this case stems from the fact that the arguments seem like childish tantrums thrown by previously adult posters.

[MSchuyler]

Can you not accept that it's merely hyperbole in an attempt to express disagreement with a business decision? If a business with customers changes a policy, and some customers disagree with the policy change, they express it.

 

It's really that simple. That's all that is happening.

 

Fair enough, but the "mere hyperbole" weakens the argument considerably. We see in this thread and most others critical of BW that, "If I am displeased, therefore EVERYONE must be displeased, and I deem that bad for business." Only the premise is valid. The conclusions aren't. In fact, they are devoid of fact. No one has the hard data to back up such conclusions. Reading tea leaves is not "gathering data."

 

Game players, by and large, don't operate businesses, particularly large and complex businesses more complicated than a lemonade stand, businesses that have serious investors that expect a return on their money. They have no idea what is bad and what is good for business. They're just reacting to their own displeasure, mistaking their own presence as good and their own absence, which has not happened, as bad. That's a very simple black and white world. It's all about YOU! Add a bunch of emotion and hand wringing and you have the typical BW rage fest like this one.

 

Game players are also not citizens, though it kind of feels that way in-game. But the point is that SWTOR is not a democracy. You don't get a vote on every decision BW makes. Even if you vote in a poll, that does not constitute enfranchisement. A "petition" on these forums has no real weight at all. It's a false sense of entitlement to think otherwise, and reacting as a "citizen" would to a "government" is, besides being laughable, invalid. Democracies historically have not lasted more than a couple hundred years. Why? Because the "citizens" finally figure out they can raid the treasury until there's nothing left. Then they can blame the government.

 

But you are not a citizen here; you are a customer. And your $15.00 or so per month, though perhaps it uses up your allowance or lunch money, may be a lot to you, and is a lot collectively, is individually forgettable and does not "entitle" you to much more than access to the game, to the game BW sees fit to provide and change as it sees fit. And just in case you think your "rights" extend beyond this, there're those "Terms & Condition" you agreed to when you signed up, that pretty much wipe away any legal rights you think you have.

 

Now any subscription business has a certain amount of "churn," whether it is cell phones, cable TV, or newspapers. There is a certain percentage of customers who are "enraged" at any given time. So any subscription-based operation has to recruit new subscribers, like BW is doing with the Summer Pass (which has "enraged" a certain number of current subscribers.) But the point here is that it is in BW/EA's best interests to encourage the ragers, the malcontents, the unhappy and butthurt, to quit in favor of new subscribers who have not yet developed such attitudes.

 

In other words, BW is hoping you will quit because all your outrage and your demands on customer service, largely for issues that are really your own problems (L2P, hardware, or ISP issues that have nothing really to do with BW) are a drag on their bottom line. In other words, it really costs more to serve you than you are paying, and BW needs to find a way to get rid of you.

 

And if they succeed, it will be much better for all concerned.

[Andryah]

I noticed the price increase for collection unlocks when they released the dewback mounts. Bought one off the GTN, went to unlock it in collections......600 cartel coins?!?!?!? That's a ripoff. Haven't bought a pack since....or unlocked anything.

 

Sorry, but 600 was NOT new pricing.. it was pretty well established pricing to unlock the top end rare mounts.

 

But let's take your hyperbole and put in context ----> IF they had made the unlock price for the Rancor in this pack 2400 CC then it would be in line with the price increase they surprised players with on the armor unlocks in this pack.

[Andryah]

What truly bothers me is people whining about the change as if they were promised something. Crying "broken trust" over this means that these people simply do not understand what a real broken trust is.

 

Sorry, but you are late to the discussion and have misplaced the context of the issue completely.

 

Most players, even the OP here agrees that Bioware (really any company) can make changes to content as they like. We as player are free to participate or not (depending on personal interest, do we see value for the price required, etc.).

 

THE CORE ISSUE ----> They did not communicate such a significant change as we are seeing here with players. In fact, players (myself included) quickly opened bug threads in the bug forum requesting clarification as to what was going on. AND it was a full week after that before Bioware admitted the change in drop rates within a given pack, and the higher unlock prices. And yes.. it is a trust issue created by their actions in this case. It's not game breaking and should not (IMO) be grounds for anyone to quit the game.....but please don't belittle the core issue here with passive aggressive attacks on the players who do feel a break in trust here.

 

If you want to get up in peoples faces and accuse them of whining... at least get your facts straight first, so you don't appear so misinformed.

 

Personally, I don't buy packs, and I only unlock selected sets/items (even though I do buy a copy of most of them and store them for later use or resale). So the issue at hand does not directly affect me. However, I can clearly see that they are playing some shenanigans here and players are calling them on it. Personally, I have already found ways to carve out personal profits in game from the way this has been handled... but that is just me working with what we have been handed, not because they did anything right or noble here.

 

The decision to dig in and double down now and say it is working as intended.. and "oh by the way" we are withdrawing the pack shortly when 2.8.1 drops just makes them look more like they are playing shenanigans here then if they said nothing at all.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Andryah

[ghoul_drool]

Sorry, but 600 was NOT new pricing.. it was pretty well established pricing to unlock the top end rare mounts.

 

But let's take your hyperbole and put in context ----> IF they had made the unlock price for the Rancor in this pack 2400 CC then it would be in line with the price increase they surprised players with on the armor unlocks in this pack.

 

Indeed, look at the Energetic Champion set from shipment three... 600 CC. I'm sure nobody bothered to unlock THAT one.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Indeed, look at the Energetic Champion set from shipment three... 600 CC. I'm sure nobody bothered to unlock THAT one.

 

Those class sets from the Bounty Shipments were weird. One set would be 360 CC and the other was 600 CC.

[Andryah]

Those class sets from the Bounty Shipments were weird. One set would be 360 CC and the other was 600 CC.

 

Yeah, I agree. In fact, it was one of the first times we saw what appeared to be an unexplained "bug" and they never acknowledged it or fixed it either.

[OddballEasyEight]

Yeah; I don't do Facebook. Always seemed to be a place to air out dirty laundry at worst or hoop up with people from your past at best, and sometimes that leads to more dirty laundry.

 

I use it mainly as a source of funny videos and jokes by liking/subscribing to pages that provide those.

 

It is what you make of it I guess.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Yeah, I agree. In fact, it was one of the first times we saw what appeared to be an unexplained "bug" and they never acknowledged it or fixed it either.

 

So they should have predetermined prices on all unlocks for armor?

[errant_knight]

If I knew that the increased milking was going toward producing the next 3 chapters, I wouldn't actually care. I'll pretty much pay whatever it takes to make that happen. I think we can all agree that the cartel market is what's making this game profitable. Yes, it's too bad that it's taken over the economy entirely. Yes, crafting needs an overhaul to make some of the crafting trees viable again. Still, overall, the CM saved the game. If people don't want to sub, it needs to raise boatloads of cash. If the majority of players started subbing, they could dial it back. But this 'experiment' is a bridge too far. To suck it up, I need a very good reason in terms of getting the content we were originally promised.

[Grayseven]

Sorry, but you are late to the discussion and have misplaced the context of the issue completely.

 

Most players, even the OP here agrees that Bioware (really any company) can make changes to content as they like. We as player are free to participate or not (depending on personal interest, do we see value for the price required, etc.).

 

THE CORE ISSUE ----> They did not communicate such a significant change as we are seeing here with players. In fact, players (myself included) quickly opened bug threads in the bug forum requesting clarification as to what was going on. AND it was a full week after that before Bioware admitted the change in drop rates within a given pack, and the higher unlock prices. And yes.. it is a trust issue created by their actions in this case. It's not game breaking and should not (IMO) be grounds for anyone to quit the game.....but please don't belittle the core issue here with passive aggressive attacks on the players who do feel a break in trust here.

 

If you want to get up in peoples faces and accuse them of whining... at least get your facts straight first, so you don't appear so misinformed.

 

Personally, I don't buy packs, and I only unlock selected sets/items (even though I do buy a copy of most of them and store them for later use or resale). So the issue at hand does not directly affect me. However, I can clearly see that they are playing some shenanigans here and players are calling them on it. Personally, I have already found ways to carve out personal profits in game from the way this has been handled... but that is just me working with what we have been handed, not because they did anything right or noble here.

 

The decision to dig in and double down now and say it is working as intended.. and "oh by the way" we are withdrawing the pack shortly when 2.8.1 drops just makes them look more like they are playing shenanigans here then if they said nothing at all.

 

The entirety of my responses has been directly related to the OP's original post and the subsequent discussion. I'm right where I need to be.

 

You consider the change to be "of consequence". I do not. I see it as nothing more than a tweak to the system. That some people see it as the proverbial "slap in the face" is laughable to me, since this is exactly the kind of change I expect in an MMO. As to the lack of communication...well, let's be honest. There has been a lack of communication between Dev's and players in every single MMO I've played. Early UO complaints were about, you guessed it, lack of communication.

 

But with lack of communication comes the other side of the balance: Too much communication. The fact that this wasn't communicated is probably because the Dev's (rightly) didn't see this as a big deal. So they tweaked something. The players up in arms are treating this like the NGE all over again when in fact it is nothing more than a simple numbers adjustment as an experiment.

 

That some people see shenanigans is laughable as well. Acting like there is some sinister motive, attributing the change to EA/BW "sticking it" to the players? Ridiculous.

 

So what if it took a week? How often do you drop everything you are doing to do something else? This whole "want it now" thing from Gen Y and beyond is getting silly. Patience is a virtue.

 

Stop thinking EA/BW is out to get you. Quit thinking that they are personally doing things to piss you off. I quite honestly believe that the Dev's had no idea something so trivial would get blown out of proportion and at least they changed their minds. Too often MMO companies give players the finger and tell them to deal with it.

 

But once again, don't assume that just because something has always been a certain way that it will always be that way. And if you can't help but, then don't blow up when your assumptions turn out false. And for crying out loud post with some intelligence as is usual instead of reverting to "hater troll" form the moment one little thing ruffles your fur.

[Reno_Tarshil]

So what if it took a week? How often do you drop everything you are doing to do something else? This whole "want it now" thing from Gen Y and beyond is getting silly. Patience is a virtue.

 

This is the only part of your response that I take issue with.

 

Patience. I've tried to be nothing but patient and understanding with the game even when it seemed like times were dark. But there comes a point where you can only be patient for so long before you ask what the hell?

 

Now I understand this doesn't affect or bother you any, but it does for me. This was how I felt and I posted it as polite and civil to Bioware as I could. In no way did I intend for this to be a childish trolling rant, but a letter to Bioware from one of it's biggest supporters as to why I felt this way regarding there recent actions.

 

I hope you're able to understand where I'm coming from here.