If Sandbox MMO gaming is so bad, why does Minecraft have 10x the people SWTOR does?

[OddballEasyEight]

I don't contend that they are more popular. I contend that sandboxes are wildly popular. Of course your average MMOer (The masses, the bulk of the playerbase.) does not want a sandbox, because the average MMOer wants everything guided and explained to him/her. Today's premier MMOs are made to be played by a short attention span crowd with Nightmare-level endgame being the only thing that takes substantial dedication and effort. Everything else is a hand-held tour on rails.

 

Then why are you even posting?

My entire response to the OP was that Sandbox MMO's are not more (or even as) popular than themepark MMO's.

 

Why even engage in the discussion if you don't hold that sanbox mmo's are more popular.

Edited June 19, 2014 by OddballEasyEight

[OddballEasyEight]

Minecrafts player base consists mostly of children and hipsters.

 

I work at a school with ages 6-13, and pretty much everyone there plays minecraft.

So yeah, a LARGE part of their playerbase are little kids.

[OddballEasyEight]

Because it's run by Blizzard and competent devs, compared to... what SWTOR has. Game could've given WoW a run for its money... sigh.

 

He's too much of an EAware fanboi to understand that

 

Aaaand that wasn't even the discussion.

But thank you for trying.

And for calling me names. That always brightens up my day

[JediMasterSLC]

agree on this as well!

 

Though I do wish they would make the last achievement super long to achieve (IE rather then final stage being 500 kills make a final stage of 50000 kills)

 

But yeah, I bet maybe 1% of game have done all the doable acheivements

 

But completing achievements doesn't reward you with anything meaningful...... a check in the box after doing something 1000 times is not content.

Edited June 19, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Warrgames]

I don't get SWG people at all. Always crying about a sandbox but you got that in SWTOR its called Tatoonie so go play in the sand with your little toy trucks and quit the QQ threads.

 

SWTOR needs be more like Angry Birds which has 100000000 times as many people playing it.

SWTOR needs to be more like Flappy Birds with its loyal following.

SWTOR needs to be more like....

I can play the name any random game that has nothing to do with MMO and say SWTOR needs to be more like it too.

[JediMasterSLC]

I don't get SWG people at all. Always crying about a sandbox but you got that in SWTOR its called Tatoonie so go play in the sand with your little toy trucks and quit the QQ threads.

 

.................................................

Edited June 19, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[TheBBP]

Then why are you even posting?

My entire response to the OP was that Sandbox MMO's are not more (or even as) popular than themepark MMO's.

 

Why even engage in the discussion if you don't hold that sanbox mmo's are more popular.

 

I engage and post because I can. It doesn't matter if I think that he is 100% correct, enough people play Minecraft to make a case for his statement about the popularity of sandboxes.

[Daekarus]

I have never figured out why Minecraft is so popular. I've seen it, played it, and it just stinks. There's no point. If I want to build something I'll go to the garage and do it.

[LordArtemis]

I would not say that the obvious runaway hit that minecraft is is a statement on the superiority of the sandbox model....but I would say it stands as pretty reasonable evidence that there are folks that really like sandbox play....myself included. And there is room in the MMO market for sandboxes, Eve stands as a reasonably good example of this.

 

However, I would say that the modern MMO market is not dominated by sandbox games, nor would it likely be a popular thing if it was. I feel that the market has shifted to a more favorable view of sandboxes with the general MMO crowd, and a game that incorporates both sandbox and themepark elements has a healthy chance, a much healthier chance than if it is only sandbox or themepark.

 

That is just my personal view naturally. I like some themepark elements and some sandbox elements. I would expect todays market feels the same way in general.

 

The trick is knowing which parts to incorporate.

Edited June 19, 2014 by LordArtemis

[OddballEasyEight]

I engage and post because I can. It doesn't matter if I think that he is 100% correct, enough people play Minecraft to make a case for his statement about the popularity of sandboxes.

 

Enough kids play in actual sandboxes to make the case too, but it's still not the same thing.

[TUXs]

Also why not both, it does not have to be one or the other. Sand box style just seems like it would have a lot of replay value in a sense. Fortunately I think a mixture of both is actually the direction I think this game is going.

 

Exactly THIS ^^^

 

Mix the 2. That's what we were told SWTOR would be and it wasn't. Housing is a fantastic start and I'm anxious to see it, but it can't stop there...that needs to be the beginning.

[OddballEasyEight]

I would not say that the obvious runaway hit that minecraft is is a statement on the superiority of the sandbox model....but I would say it stands as pretty reasonable evidence that there are folks that really like sandbox play....myself included. And there is room in the MMO market for sandboxes, Eve stands as a reasonably good example of this.

 

However, I would say that the modern MMO market is not dominated by sandbox games, nor would it likely be a popular thing if it was. I feel that the market has shifted to a more favorable view of sandboxes with the general MMO crowd, and a game that incorporates both sandbox and themepark elements has a healthy chance, a much healthier chance than if it is only sandbox or themepark.

 

That is just my personal view naturally. I like some themepark elements and some sandbox elements. I would expect todays market feels the same way in general.

 

The trick is knowing which parts to incorporate.

 

eloquently put. I agree 100%.

[Khevar]

Though I do wish they would make the last achievement super long to achieve (IE rather then final stage being 500 kills make a final stage of 50000 kills)

This is just silly.

 

Even now, people get these achievements by taking their highly-geared level 55's to lower level planets and faceroll through everything. 50 thousand kills that way is nothing more than "how many times can I click a button".

 

Achievements should be something meaningful.

[Grayseven]

I engage and post because I can. It doesn't matter if I think that he is 100% correct, enough people play Minecraft to make a case for his statement about the popularity of sandboxes.

 

You can't compare apples to oranges and make a point. Minecraft isn't a game like WoW or SWG or SWTOR, but it is a sandbox of sorts since multiple players have an effect on the world.

 

What you think and what is reality are two very different things. Minecraft is popular, but that doesn't mean that it is popular because it is a sandbox game. You are using false arguments to try to prove somehow that sandbox play is more popular.

 

The problem with that is in an MMORPG context (a real one, not your Minecraft RPG fantasy world), sandbox play causes more problems than solutions. SWG suffered greatly from its sandbox play and in the end the game was supported only by diehard fans willing to look past the fact that every planet that you could put housing on looked like Coruscant.

 

The OP can rail against humanity, but you won't see a sandbox game like SWG again in the mainstream. You might get a niche product from a company testing the waters but you'll see the big boys being mostly themepark with some instanced sandbox stuff that won't destroy the databases.

 

Basically, I can easily call your "Minecraft = sandboxes are popular" and raise you "WoW/SWTOR/EQ = themeparks are more popular".

[LanceCorporalDan]

Every time I hear people complaining that there is nothing to do, I feel like asking how many achievement points they have.

 

lol because killing thousands of npcs for a meaningless achievement is fun... not in my book anyways.

 

The thing I do like about sandbox features if not MMOs is that they provide me something to do away from the daily grind. I do get tired of the same **** different day feeling I get in between content updates.

 

I would not say that the obvious runaway hit that minecraft is is a statement on the superiority of the sandbox model....but I would say it stands as pretty reasonable evidence that there are folks that really like sandbox play....myself included. And there is room in the MMO market for sandboxes, Eve stands as a reasonably good example of this.

 

However, I would say that the modern MMO market is not dominated by sandbox games, nor would it likely be a popular thing if it was. I feel that the market has shifted to a more favorable view of sandboxes with the general MMO crowd, and a game that incorporates both sandbox and themepark elements has a healthy chance, a much healthier chance than if it is only sandbox or themepark.

 

That is just my personal view naturally. I like some themepark elements and some sandbox elements. I would expect todays market feels the same way in general.

 

This probably voices my opinion more clearly, well said.

Edited June 19, 2014 by LanceCorporalDan

[Rankyn]

Just because something is popular, doesn't mean it's "popular enough" to be a worthwhile business venture.

 

A game like Minecraft doesn't require a large development team and huge pool of support personnel so all they really have to do is sell enough copies to hit their revenue goals.

Once you add significant ongoing monthly maintenance costs into the equation, those goals tend to rise exponentially.

[Andryah]

Since below we are able to prove that Minecraft does fit the definition of an MMO and there is no way that you can refute the amazing continued world-wide success of said game on PCs, consoles and otherwise, then you have to agree that the OP has a point.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

 

 

 

Minecraft is all of that and then some.

 

Sorry... but you just sighted a prime example of why Wikipedia is not always a good source of facts.

 

Note the header on the wiki page you sighted:

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.

 

This article needs additional citations for verification. (March 2009)

 

This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. (April 2011)

 

 

Based on this particular wikipages assertions.... just about any game that can in any way access the internet = MMO

 

As for the Minecraft comparison... it's absurd. Anyone who has ever played Minecraft or watched it being played knows full well it is in no way or scale part of a discussion about thempark vs sandbox. Minecraft is huge because it is essentially free, can be played on anything from your smart phone up to your high end PC, and is really just one big *** virtual scavenger hunt.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Andryah

[Sangrar]

As for the Minecraft comparison... it's absurd. Anyone who has ever played Minecraft or watched it being played knows full well it is in no way or scale part of a discussion about thempark vs sandbox. Minecraft is huge because it is essentially free, can be played on anything from your smart phone up to your high end PC, and is really just one big *** virtual scavenger hunt.

 

and it gets strangely addicting...

 

I even built Titans Tower with rooms and everything on that thing while screwing around at school.

[Brewski]

Minecraft is a great game, and one I love to play, but anyone who calls it an MMO is really stretching the definition. Minecraft is not an MMO, so if you want something more relevant, comparing to EVE would be more relevant.

 

To be honest, though, I think the problem is that sandbox MMOs take a lot more work for a player to be active in, and having played a few myself, I can tell you most people do not have the time to play more than one. The market is far more limited than the more casual friendly theme park, where players may be "active" in three or four games at once.

 

So yes, there's a market for sandbox MMOs, but it's far more limited and competitive, and thus not as attractive for a game developer.

[TheBBP]

Sorry... but you just sighted a prime example of why Wikipedia is not always a good source of facts.

 

Note the header on the wiki page you sighted:

 

 

Based on this particular wikipages assertions.... just about any game that can in any way access the internet = MMO

 

As for the Minecraft comparison... it's absurd. Anyone who has ever played Minecraft or watched it being played knows full well it is in no way or scale part of a discussion about thempark vs sandbox. Minecraft is huge because it is essentially free, can be played on anything from your smart phone up to your high end PC, and is really just one big *** virtual scavenger hunt.

 

Are you going to explain how Minecraft does not fit that definition of MMO or are you just going to tell me that wikipedia is bad?

[TheBBP]

 

To be honest, though, I think the problem is that sandbox MMOs take a lot more work for a player to be active in

 

This is why sandbox games do not have big followings in the premier MMO crowd. The masses want easy hand-held tours with big and instant rewards to make them feel better about their time.

[OrionSol]

Every time I hear people complaining that there is nothing to do, I feel like asking how many achievement points they have.

 

I have 55s in 2018 pvp gear .... in every class.

 

Some of them, more than one.

 

Most of those also have done every operation, and HM flashpoint

 

I also run 6 guilds with nearly 3k people,

[RandomXChance]

This is why sandbox games do not have big followings in the premier MMO crowd. The masses want easy hand-held tours with big and instant rewards to make them feel better about their time.

 

Nice way to put yourself on an exalted pedestal above the ignorant and lazy masses. I love attitudes like this. All you do is show how you think people who do not agree with you are beneath you.

 

I played EVE for 4 years and loved it. I never enjoyed SWG at all. I want to gouge out my eyes after only a short while with the "MMO" Minecraft. I have been here since launch and thoroughly enjoy it (warts and all).

 

Sometimes it is Sandbox vs Themepark, but it is ALWAYS how much fun I am having playing the game. That is the bottom line for most players. Your preference for more sandbox or more themepark says nothing about your need for instant rewards or hand holding.

Edited June 19, 2014 by RandomXChance

[SirMannii]

I like Star Wars. Minecraft is a super popular game in Sweden, and I'm Swedish. The Minecraft developers are also swedish. What game do I play? Star Wars. Have I even tried Minecraft out? No.

 

...what does this tell us?

[Brewski]

This is why sandbox games do not have big followings in the premier MMO crowd. The masses want easy hand-held tours with big and instant rewards to make them feel better about their time.

 

Or they've simply grown old enough that the amount of time they have to dedicate to any particular game is too low to truly be effective in a sandbox game.

 

For my part, I used to have a lot more time to play "hardcore" games where you might need to log in at a moments notice to repel an attack or take advantage of a rare boss spawn. Those days, though, are far in the past for me. Work, family and other responsibilities take up more of my time, and my gaming time is limited to a couple hours a night a few nights a week.

 

I still enjoy gaming, but have less time for it, so a more theme park game suits me now. I can keep active in my guild by playing a few nights a week, and enjoy content that's challenging at the level I can play. Like it or not, I am far more representative of the modern MMO community. Back when MMOs were a very small niche market they could afford to be nothing but hardcore. Nowadays they need broader appeal. TOR has it's nightmare content for people more hardcore than I, and it has it's really casual leveling content for those less so.

 

For those who enjoy "hardcore sandbox" games, they are still out there. EVE is the most prominent, but others exist as well. If that's your thing, there's more than enough of them to fill the market. You just need to find the game that meets your needs instead of trying to force the game you play to change.