Suggested Gap Closer

[JMagee]

I am not saying that there isn't something off about the class, I do agree "something" should be done.

But the class IMO would be ruined if they added a gap closer. I would rather like it if they add more "control" utility and by that I don't mean more stuns but more of "you can't go far away from me" utility.

For example and this could be a horrible idea due to balance issues, but something of this sort:

If grapple is used on an immune enemy or enemy uses movement immunity or speed boost within the next 3 seconds of grapple you gain a 20% speed boost for 6 seconds and the next Grapple is on a ten seconds shorter CD. This speed boost stacks with other speed boosts.

Exact numbers can be tweaked!

 

The bold issue is the part I don't like. You shouldn't necessarily be "rewarded" for using Harpoon on a Trooper w/ HtL up, or a sage with Egress up, or a rolling scoundrel.

 

I do think the one QoL issue with VGs/PTs right now is baseline movement speed for non-tactics. I agree with SG-HS-HiB closing in from range and don't think a gap closer is necessary, but at the same time, VGs are just...slow. I'd rather them take the speed bonus out of HtL, make it only a Physics immunity effect, and give me another skill that lets me increase movement speed for a duration similar to Force Speed (not as a high a percentage though).

[gocard]

The bold issue is the part I don't like. You shouldn't necessarily be "rewarded" for using Harpoon on a Trooper w/ HtL up, or a sage with Egress up, or a rolling scoundrel.

 

What if it only worked in PVE? That's the only place where a gap closer is needed because bosses (and champions) are immune to grapple. Which means PTs/VGs have no gap closer.

[JMagee]

What if it only worked in PVE? That's the only place where a gap closer is needed because bosses (and champions) are immune to grapple. Which means PTs/VGs have no gap closer.

 

I don't think it would be an issue in PvE. I agree that a way to make up distance quickly is what I would like most on my VG currently. I don't want it tied to another ability.

 

1a. I'd rather be in more control of my abilities. If I'm trying to drop a simplification as far away as possible from a group on Tyrans, I don't want to have to have to harpoon Tyrans (if we're talking about the idea of using it on a movement immune target and getting a temporary speed bonus)

b. If we're talking about making Harpoon a pull in to movement immune NPC (not going to involve the PvP idea where no gap closer is necessary) it doesn't help me make up more distance.

 

2. I already don't like the multi-functionality tied to Diversion in Assault. It's both a threat drop and a DCD, whereas if you could be proactive about your threat drop, you wouldn't need it as a DCD. But it's the closest thing a VG has to "cheesing" and orb in Brontes. Either that or you don't put points in Electro Shield because you'll eat a ton of reflected damage while trying to explode an orb. HtL is a great movement immunity perk, but a lackluster speed boost. It's on a short of CD that you don't have to be too cognizant of when you will need it in the future, but it too is a sort of either...or ability. Either you use it to break roots/slows etc...or you use it run faster. So making Harpoon a "if...then...if not...then" type of ability is something I'd personally like to avoid.

 

3. VGs have to be smarter than any other melee class (that I can think of) when it comes to moving large distances in a timely fashion. (Think NiM Brontes Clock Phase). It's not "hard" but when every other melee can get there quicker (leap,roll,force speed) it's a bit frustrating. I'd rather have a single purpose short term speed boost that let's me be in complete control of getting farther in a certain amount of time.

Edited July 21, 2014 by JMagee

[Qaoz]

I'd trade Grapple for Jet Charge in a heartbeat. I know a lot of veteran PvP players prefer Grapple, and, yes, being able to pull a guy out of their death ball and into your death ball is probably great for ranked and 4-mans, but in regular 8-man Warzones, mobility > peeling.

 

Since Powertechs have pretty crappy cooldowns for when they get focused (compared to an Assassin and a Juggernaut), being able to jump to someone 30 meters away is invaluable. I went Shield Tech for a bit in PvP, and while tanks are practically useless in unranked Warzones, unless you have a healer, being able to jump around was such a blast that when I went back to Pyro, I felt like I'd taken a couple of steps down the evolutionary ladder.

 

Once you try leaping, walking everywhere is going to feel like crap. Ruined the class for me.

 

Back to playing my Juggernaut, because survivability and mobility is off the charts. Meanwhile, my Powertech is going to go back to walking around everywhere while spamming Rapid Shots until a Sorcerer, Mercenary, or Sniper melts him, because that's balance, yo.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Qaoz

[iDraxter]

I'd trade Grapple for Jet Charge in a heartbeat. I know a lot of veteran PvP players prefer Grapple, and, yes, being able to pull a guy out of their death ball and into your death ball is probably great for ranked and 4-mans, but in regular 8-man Warzones, mobility > peeling.

 

Since Powertechs have pretty crappy cooldowns for when they get focused (compared to an Assassin and a Juggernaut), being able to jump to someone 30 meters away is invaluable. I went Shield Tech for a bit in PvP, and while tanks are practically useless in unranked Warzones, unless you have a healer, being able to jump around was such a blast that when I went back to Pyro, I felt like I'd taken a couple of steps down the evolutionary ladder.

 

Once you try leaping, walking everywhere is going to feel like crap. Ruined the class for me.

 

Back to playing my Juggernaut, because survivability and mobility is off the charts. Meanwhile, my Powertech is going to go back to walking around everywhere while spamming Rapid Shots until a Sorcerer, Mercenary, or Sniper melts him, because that's balance, yo.

Were all happy you found happiness in the Juggernaut camp it`s obvious Powertech was just not the class for you. Enjoy mate.

[Qaoz]

Were all happy you found happiness in the Juggernaut camp it`s obvious Powertech was just not the class for you. Enjoy mate.

 

Therein lies my problem, because I really want to enjoy the Powertech class. I love the idea of a heavily armored boss with a flamethrower, jet pack, and a gun. It's ten times more awesome than the Juggernaut, in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately, Jet Charge plays such a large role in my enjoyment of the class that I'm forced to go Shield Tech. I don't mind being a tank, but when I compare my Shield Tech Powertech to my Immortal Juggernaut, I'm having a hard time defending the Shield Tech. My Juggernaut does more damage, has better mitigation, better CC, better self-healing, better resource management, and while the AOE taunt requires melee range, I can leap into melee range and back out again. My Powertech, when caught in melee range, gets to pop HO and run out of range. Or rather, try to run out of range, because everyone and their auntie can catch a Powertech trying to waddle out of combat.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say with my rant is that the Powertech feels very immobile for a skirmish class. It's clunky as hell. Even Operatives get more mobility despite having better ranged damage potential. Heavy armor does not make up for it.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Qaoz

[iDraxter]

Therein lies my problem, because I really want to enjoy the Powertech class. I love the idea of a heavily armored boss with a flamethrower, jet pack, and a gun. It's ten times more awesome than the Juggernaut, in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately, Jet Charge plays such a large role in my enjoyment of the class that I'm forced to go Shield Tech. I don't mind being a tank, but when I compare my Shield Tech Powertech to my Immortal Juggernaut, I'm having a hard time defending the Shield Tech. My Juggernaut does more damage, has better mitigation, better CC, better self-healing, better resource management, and while the AOE taunt requires melee range, I can leap into melee range and back out again. My Powertech, when caught in melee range, gets to pop HO and run out of range. Or rather, try to run out of range, because everyone and their auntie can catch a Powertech trying to waddle out of combat.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say with my rant is that the Powertech feels very immobile for a skirmish class. It's clunky as hell. Even Operatives get more mobility despite having better ranged damage potential. Heavy armor does not make up for it.

I`m wondering what we`ll get in 3.0

[AAntan]

I'd trade Grapple for Jet Charge in a heartbeat. I know a lot of veteran PvP players prefer Grapple, and, yes, being able to pull a guy out of their death ball and into your death ball is probably great for ranked and 4-mans, but in regular 8-man Warzones, mobility > peeling.

 

Obviously you never used your grapple to grab the ball carrier on Huttball to kill it, stop the score, etc... Or pull out cc'd people on nodes to make the cap easier for the stealther, then again people only think that a leap has more use than a pull.

 

Since Powertechs have pretty crappy cooldowns for when they get focused (compared to an Assassin and a Juggernaut), being able to jump to someone 30 meters away is invaluable. I went Shield Tech for a bit in PvP, and while tanks are practically useless in unranked Warzones, unless you have a healer, being able to jump around was such a blast that when I went back to Pyro, I felt like I'd taken a couple of steps down the evolutionary ladder.

 

Granted, PT tanks are not the best on PvP because we don't have a cd that can stop the massive burst, but it still can guard people to soak up damage, put oil slick for extra defense on others and snare people like hell so they dont go far, not to mention that Stealth Scan can root stealthers that shows up.

 

On the other hand, PT DPS have some good defense, AP can soak more damage while its stun, not to mention that you can still swap to Ion cell and get 60% armor (by trading some offensive). Pyro has a lot of dcds now with 25% Defense on Chaff Flares, 30% DR when KO is up (And it drops 6s off cd every time you get hit) and Pyro shield for some reflect damage and 20% DR

 

Once you try leaping, walking everywhere is going to feel like crap. Ruined the class for me.

 

Clearly the PT is not for you because if you think that the class turned into crap after losing your leap... then (and I'm sure you wont like this answer) you suck at it. Leaping into battle like a monkey isn't the solution for everything, only people that used do to that were smash monkeys because they could burst down the crap out of people with Smash.

 

Back to playing my Juggernaut, because survivability and mobility is off the charts. Meanwhile, my Powertech is going to go back to walking around everywhere while spamming Rapid Shots until a Sorcerer, Mercenary, or Sniper melts him, because that's balance, yo.

 

Lol, PT has almost as much mobility as a Jugg... The reason a lot of people cheer out the Jugg is because it got that retarted ED on 2.7 that made them OP... Who doesn't want to get hit and h2f? Even with the 10s it's still broken because you pop it while stun and BAM! Granted, they needed that cd fixed, but it got fixed on a retarded way.

[Ottoattack]

Therein lies my problem, because I really want to enjoy the Powertech class. I love the idea of a heavily armored boss with a flamethrower, jet pack, and a gun. It's ten times more awesome than the Juggernaut, in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately, Jet Charge plays such a large role in my enjoyment of the class that I'm forced to go Shield Tech. I don't mind being a tank, but when I compare my Shield Tech Powertech to my Immortal Juggernaut, I'm having a hard time defending the Shield Tech. My Juggernaut does more damage, has better mitigation, better CC, better self-healing, better resource management, and while the AOE taunt requires melee range, I can leap into melee range and back out again. My Powertech, when caught in melee range, gets to pop HO and run out of range. Or rather, try to run out of range, because everyone and their auntie can catch a Powertech trying to waddle out of combat.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say with my rant is that the Powertech feels very immobile for a skirmish class. It's clunky as hell. Even Operatives get more mobility despite having better ranged damage potential. Heavy armor does not make up for it.

 

This topic has been beaten to death so many times. Much of the quoted above is not correct. Like juggs have better mobility or ops have better range options.

 

In PvE your should be always within 2 GCDs from the target. If you are sitting at 30+ meters its not a class design problem. Thought using grapple against ops/fp bosses is a possibility, JC has no place in PvP. You do not want to be in melee range against melee classes and is OP against ranged.

[Qaoz]

Clearly the PT is not for you because if you think that the class turned into crap after losing your leap... then (and I'm sure you wont like this answer) you suck at it.

 

You're right, I don't like your reply. Mostly because you misread my post. I said the class felt like crap, not that it turned into crap. Going from ST to Pyro didn't make the class worse, it just felt bad that I had to run everywhere when I was used to having a jump.

 

This topic has been beaten to death so many times. Much of the quoted above is not correct. Like juggs have better mobility or ops have better range options.

 

Hydraulic Overrides is a powerful anti-root/-snare cooldown, no doubt, but my Juggernaut has two leaps, both on shorter cooldowns than Hydraulic Overrides, and one of them can be reset with Force Push. I can jump three times in a row and get from one end of the field to the other. Can Hydraulic Overrides do that?

 

I mean, watch and weep:

 

As for ranged damage output vs. an Operative, I suppose I'll have to go do some testing, but I'm fairly certain my Operative can out-damage my Powertech at 30 meters.

[Ottoattack]

Hydraulic Overrides is a powerful anti-root/-snare cooldown, no doubt, but my Juggernaut has two leaps, both on shorter cooldowns than Hydraulic Overrides, and one of them can be reset with Force Push. I can jump three times in a row and get from one end of the field to the other. Can Hydraulic Overrides do that?

 

No and it doesn't need to, cuz you do not need to be in 4 meter range as pyro almost at all. Staying in 10 meter distance of the target is extremely easy when the target is snared by 40% all the time. Also, just a reminder that the leap it self is a wasted GCD that barely does any damage. Plus did you ever play a sorc or a merc? Go play one of these and tell how "easy" it is to kite pyro. I played both sorc and merc and juggs are very easy to kite and control, especially your 3 jump smasher.

 

Leap is more useful for knights cuz they need to be in melee range. HC is more useful for PTs cuz you need to stay within 10 meters. BTW, I also played smasher for quite sometime and veng. Pyro has so much better mobility and uptime on target it is not remotely comparable.

 

As for ranged damage output vs. an Operative, I suppose I'll have to go do some testing, but I'm fairly certain my Operative can out-damage my Powertech at 30 meters.

 

Ops has only three atks from range, regular atk, grenade and dot. Nothing can hit more than 3K with critic (you can crouch and snipe but that does not count). PT has same options plus RS. I can start off hitting the target with assault then following with RS doing close to 8K from 30 meters.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Ottoattack

[eerinbastile]

No. Powertechs are fine in both PvP and PvE.

[iDraxter]

just a reminder that the leap it self is a wasted GCD that barely does any damage.

I call uber BS in that statement.

You judge all abilities by how much dmg they do???you look at Leap`s dmg instead of utility purposes? Beside that small dmg it roots your target in place, interrupts any cast, gives you 3 rage/focus alongside instantly moving you to your target and it`s a free ability(actually it pays you to use it) on a low cooldown how can you classify that as

a wasted GCD

Edited July 28, 2014 by iDraxter

[Ottoattack]

I call uber BS in that statement.

You judge all abilities by how much dmg they do???you look at Leap`s dmg instead of utility purposes? Beside that small dmg it roots your target in place, interrupts any cast, gives you 3 rage/focus alongside instantly moving you to your target and it`s a free ability(actually it pays you to use it) on a low cooldown how can you classify that as

 

You took what I said out of context. Go read the post you quoted a sentence from again.

[iDraxter]

You took what I said out of context. Go read the post you quoted a sentence from again.

 

just a reminder that the leap it self is a wasted GCD .

under no circumstance is this true

[Frenesi]

And here i was hoping that buffing pyro will get some PVE people to play class.

 

Yea, in PVP both dps powertechs are good and all that. Both have their gap closer there and are happy. And from the look of it, pyro doesn't need gap closer that much in PVE, since it's one of those weird 10m ranged classes with some 30 potential.

 

But AP sucks balls. 15% speedup is bad joke for a class who needs to be in 4 meters to START FREAKEN ROTATION. And stay in that 4m range for first 1/3 of it. I don't care how is it called in PVP, in PVE it's melee class. Yes, we can walk faster then any other class, but every other melee doesn't need to walk at all. AP DPS is crap, and yes, movement problem isn't the main reason for it. But it only makes it worse.

 

PT situation looks much like assassin's - here you have one good PVE dps spec, so we don't care if second one is completely broken. That's bad. Really bad.

 

I have already seen bunch of PVPers destroying gap closer question in list, like PVE doesn't exist. Srsly guys, why are you even here? Your specs are fine, PVP is not the question. Just let devs give AP PVE something. Please.

[ekolan]

And here i was hoping that buffing pyro will get some PVE people to play class.

 

Yea, in PVP both dps powertechs are good and all that. Both have their gap closer there and are happy. And from the look of it, pyro doesn't need gap closer that much in PVE, since it's one of those weird 10m ranged classes with some 30 potential.

 

But AP sucks balls. 15% speedup is bad joke for a class who needs to be in 4 meters to START FREAKEN ROTATION. And stay in that 4m range for first 1/3 of it. I don't care how is it called in PVP, in PVE it's melee class. Yes, we can walk faster then any other class, but every other melee doesn't need to walk at all. AP DPS is crap, and yes, movement problem isn't the main reason for it. But it only makes it worse.

 

PT situation looks much like assassin's - here you have one good PVE dps spec, so we don't care if second one is completely broken. That's bad. Really bad.

 

I have already seen bunch of PVPers destroying gap closer question in list, like PVE doesn't exist. Srsly guys, why are you even here? Your specs are fine, PVP is not the question. Just let devs give AP PVE something. Please.

 

The reason PVP'ers are commenting on this is because change to the class will affect them as well.

 

Also, AP is a spec centered around AOE a.k.a AREA OF EFFECT. This class is naturally going to parse lower due to that fact. It doesnt need to be parsing at the top of the charts with pyro because, again.. its an AOE spec, not ST. Learn the difference and play each spec as needed.

 

The only thing i could see happening is giving APs the ability to channel and move at the same time. But i dont think the Devs have the capability to make this happen, and this would turn AP into the FOTM class and everyone would be running around channeling flame throwers.

 

For those of you having trouble "staying in range" in PVP, i suggest you re-learn the class. Good PTs dont get kited for very long, they're in fact one of the hardest classes to kite.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

The reason PVP'ers are commenting on this is because change to the class will affect them as well.

 

Also, AP is a spec centered around AOE a.k.a AREA OF EFFECT. This class is naturally going to parse lower due to that fact. It doesnt need to be parsing at the top of the charts with pyro because, again.. its an AOE spec, not ST. Learn the difference and play each spec as needed.

 

The only thing i could see happening is giving APs the ability to channel and move at the same time. But i dont think the Devs have the capability to make this happen, and this would turn AP into the FOTM class and everyone would be running around channeling flame throwers.

 

For those of you having trouble "staying in range" in PVP, i suggest you re-learn the class. Good PTs dont get kited for very long, they're in fact one of the hardest classes to kite.

 

AOE Specs shouldnt be the ones parsing the lowest just because their AOE attack is supposed to be their highest damager... AP NEEDS a buff. I would play the spec if we got these changes.

 

15% extra damage on Retrac Blade's DoT and upfront damage

 

10% More damage on Rail Shot, Rocket Punch, and Immolate

 

30% Surge on Rail Shot and Shoulder Cannon in addition to our current Surge bonuses

 

All of these would create an AOE Spec that can still do some good Single target damage.

[Frenesi]

The reason PVP'ers are commenting on this is because change to the class will affect them as well.

 

Also, AP is a spec centered around AOE a.k.a AREA OF EFFECT. This class is naturally going to parse lower due to that fact. It doesnt need to be parsing at the top of the charts with pyro because, again.. its an AOE spec, not ST. Learn the difference and play each spec as needed.

 

The only thing i could see happening is giving APs the ability to channel and move at the same time. But i dont think the Devs have the capability to make this happen, and this would turn AP into the FOTM class and everyone would be running around channeling flame throwers.

 

For those of you having trouble "staying in range" in PVP, i suggest you re-learn the class. Good PTs dont get kited for very long, they're in fact one of the hardest classes to kite.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but we are the worst PVE class, next to deception sins. Who have 1 natural gap closer and one speedup. And optionally useful teleport. Other AOE classes have better single target damage. And rage have jump and one 10m closer. Sabotage can do their dirty work from 30 meters, and they still have gap closer.

 

And yes, i do know that PVP is also involved. But every time gap closers are discussed, they are neglected with "shut up, you have harpoon and slows" BS.

[AAntan]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but we are the worst PVE class

 

You are wrong. Pyro PT is hitting 4.2k dps on Dummy parses (+4k on boss) and I have seen AP PT hit +3.6k on boss fights that involve adds (Like NiM Draxus, Grob'Thok, CZ, etc). And tanking isn't the greatest because we don't have a "I Win" CD, but we are the less spiky tank, making heals a breeze.

 

And yes, i do know that PVP is also involved. But every time gap closers are discussed, they are neglected with "shut up, you have harpoon and slows" BS.

 

Because people believe that Jet Charge is going to increase DPS by a huge margin. Granted the gap between Pyro and AP atm is around ~700 DPS but that won't get fix by adding Jet Charge (It will break PvP for what, an increase of ~100dps on PvE?).

Edited July 31, 2014 by AAntan

[Qaoz]

Staying in 10 meter distance of the target is extremely easy when the target is snared by 40% all the time.

 

How, exactly, would you stay at 10-meter range against a Vengeance Juggernaut? 6 meters aren't as much as you probably think; especially not in PVP where everyone gets knocked around all the time.

 

Also, just a reminder that the leap it self is a wasted GCD that barely does any damage.

 

It has the same range as Rapid Shots. It costs the same amount of resources as Rapid Shots (none). It does more damage than Rapid Shots. That alone gives it higher priority than Rapid Shots. In addition it also interrupts and roots the target, and it allows you to move in 3D space.

 

BTW, I also played smasher for quite sometime and veng. Pyro has so much better mobility and uptime on target it is not remotely comparable.

 

Uptime, sure, since you can spam Rapid Shots and pop Rail Shot/Unload once in a while at 30 meters. Mobility, though? We'd be comparing Force Charge and Intercede with Hydraulic Overrides and Grapple. If you've ever played Shield Tech, you'd know just how mobile a leap makes you.

 

Try it. Or don't. You might not like what the superior mobility of not having a leap feels like.

 

Ops has only three atks from range, regular atk, grenade and dot. Nothing can hit more than 3K with critic (you can crouch and snipe but that does not count). PT has same options plus RS. I can start off hitting the target with assault then following with RS doing close to 8K from 30 meters.

 

For burst damage, my Operative can do 10k damage in 3 GCD: Explosive Probe + Snipe + Snipe. Sure, over a longer period of time, a non-spec Powertech would probably win over a non-spec Operative, due to Death From Above's massive damage and Unload's relatively short cooldown.

 

Try pitting a Pyro Powertech against a Lethality Operative at 30 meters, though. Corrosive Grenade, double-ticks on Corrosive Dart, and resource generation on DoT crits = Snipe spam. I bet the fight would be much closer than you think.

[Rekkakuski]

again Operative, who think he's sniper?

[Aetrus]

...If we're comparing the mobility of Vengeance to the mobility of Pyro, Pyro wins hands down. How can you even argue otherwise when your hardest hitting move (Ravage) requires you to literally stand still for 3 seconds and your only hard CC requires the same is beyond me.

 

If we're comparing ranged options...why? It's a melee class. Who gives a damn about their ranged abilities? And Railshot, Explosive Dart, Death from Above and Pyro Rapid Shots says the PT wins that matchup, too. Don't bother using Unload in Pyro, ever, it's stupid and a waste of heat. By the same token, don't bother using Snipe on an operative unless you're trolling. Overload Shot is better.

 

AP needs the Prototype Cylinders talent buffed. Pyro is fine. The class's mobility is fine, it doesn't need a gap closer.

[Qaoz]

again Operative, who think he's sniper?

 

No. We're comparing the ranged damage potential of two melee-oriented classes. I'm in no way saying Lethality Operatives make for good Snipers. Please read the entire discussion before jumping to conclusions.

 

The class's mobility is fine, it doesn't need a gap closer.

 

No, it doesn't, but a leap makes everything more fun.

[Zoom_VI]

Yeah I'm going to agree3 with Aetrus.

 

We are fine, other than a slight tweak to AP, we don't need anything atm, and giving us anything will just make us overpowered.