Devs: Seriously? There is nothing that you can do against 8 bombers

[Ramalina]

Sorry, was on JM waiting while my guild's progression raiding group went through the process of, "meh, we don't really feel like raiding tonight," which only took about 3 hours.

 

Otherwise I would have been there to keep Sammy company and feed P-torps to the bombers. After all, eating protons is what bombers are for.

 

More a matchmaking problem than bomber problem really. The sort of match where you just pick the best suited weapon you have and say, "hi," to a deserving target as many times as you can. Guess that's harder when the entire other team is a deserving target, or is it easier?

Edited June 1, 2014 by Ramalina

[Nisdain]

Dementia. Thats if the screenshot he posted after is originally his.

 

Thank ya

[Zoom_VI]

This thread is like competing with the regular PvP forum for amount of QQ and Elitism. Congrats (or condolences)

[Nemarus]

So... which one of those characters is Verain?

 

Valix.

 

Dementia is Trinity.

 

As for the rest of this "discussion", I agree that a double premade with full voice was destined to win.

 

That being said, I am curious how the double premade, if somehow forced to play against themselves, would've attempted to counter this all-Minelayer wing.

[QuinMantha]

What would the devs do anyway? You think this is class balance issue?

Also:

http://puu.sh/9a18Y/e4136ac4a7.jpg

 

Woah, woah, wooooah.

 

That pic is more telling than you think.

 

Sookat, a good friend of mine, has been flying with me (sometimes) since December, and is quite frankly one of the deadliest pilots I know.

 

For her to go up against a Bomber Wing VOIP Double Premade, walk out with only one kill, 20k damage, and four deaths? That's a sign she got shut down hard.

 

Pylan, too. Pylan's outclassed me numerous times and I respect his ability. No kills, four deaths, 16k damage. Either he got up to go get a soda, or he couldn't break through this Bomberball either.

 

So, that picture is telling something about class balance. This wasn't a complete noobstomp, although it sure may have felt that way. There were good pilots in that match that could not break this deployment. It's honestly chilling.

 

This is what eight Bombers can do, well-coordinated, and well-built by current standards. This is a macro version of what, say, four Bombers can do. And if you pull the picture in close enough, it's an indication of what one Bomber can do.

 

God, I hope that somebody at BioWare recorded that game, because that is the worst-case scenario textbook this class ought to have been tested against in the first place.

[Ramalina]

Woah, woah, wooooah.

 

That pic is more telling than you think.

 

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Depends on what Pylan's bomber build and upgrades were, how long Aimbot stayed in the match and whether or not Sookat swapped ships fairly early in the match.

 

Aimbot's gunship and maybe Pylan's bomber were the only good anti-bomber ships selected in that screenshot.

 

The less skilled players didn't have good anti-bomber ships unlocked, but that's a matter of how the ship unlock system works.

 

For the good pilots, if they're not in a Quarrel, Pike, Clarion, or Rampart then it's not really an optimal anti-bomber ship choice. Even then you need the right component selection and upgrade level parity with the targets.

 

Maybe requiring such specific counter builds is not the greatest game design if you're aiming for perfect balance, but if you think about what ships and what builds really do well against a Sting/Flashfire in a close range dogfight it's hardly a problem unique to bombers.

 

Edit: actually after zooming in a bit and looking at ship icons again, I'll revise that to Aimbot is the only one that had a really good anti-bomber ship selected in that screenshot. So unless they swapped ships later, of the 4 people on the team with good anti-bomber choices active in their hangar only 25% actually picked a good anti-bomber choice.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Ramalina

[Nemarus]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Depends on what Pylan's bomber build and upgrades were, how long Aimbot stayed in the match and whether or not Sookat swapped ships fairly early in the match.

 

Aimbot's gunship and maybe Pylan's bomber were the only good anti-bomber ships selected in that screenshot.

 

The less skilled players didn't have good anti-bomber ships unlocked, but that's a matter of how the ship unlock system works.

 

For the good pilots, if they're not in a Quarrel, Pike, Clarion, or Rampart then it's not really an optimal anti-bomber ship choice. Even then you need the right component selection and upgrade level parity with the targets.

 

Maybe requiring such specific counter builds is not the greatest game design if you're aiming for perfect balance, but if you think about what ships and what builds really do well against a Sting/Flashfire in a close range dogfight it's hardly a problem unique to bombers.

 

Edit: actually after zooming in a bit and looking at ship icons again, I'll revise that to Aimbot is the only one that had a really good anti-bomber ship selected in that screenshot. So unless they swapped ships later, of the 4 people on the team with good anti-bomber choices active in their hangar only 25% actually picked a good anti-bomber choice.

 

Though as noted, a lot of these were stock Razorwires. But 3 stock Razorwires all have Seismic mines, and three Seismic mines will destroy anything but another Bomber.

[QuinMantha]

Edit: actually after zooming in a bit and looking at ship icons again, I'll revise that to Aimbot is the only one that had a really good anti-bomber ship selected in that screenshot. So unless they swapped ships later, of the 4 people on the team with good anti-bomber choices active in their hangar only 25% actually picked a good anti-bomber choice.

 

I'd need to ask her, but I know Sook is somewhat notorious for being able to switch on the fly and still compete. It stands a pretty good chance that she did.

 

Still, I think I agree on the issue of game balance. It's not cool for just one particular class to instantly render anything but something directly calibrated to crush it into a bunch of spitwads.

[Verain]

Dementia. Thats if the screenshot he posted after is originally his.

 

This has been corrected, but Dementia is Stasie. I just asked him for the screenshot. I'm Vailx in that screenshot.

 

 

That being said, I am curious how the double premade, if somehow forced to play against themselves, would've attempted to counter this all-Minelayer wing.

 

We'd have played balanced ships, including bombers, scouts, and gunships if faced with something silly like all bombers.

 

Sookat, a good friend of mine, has been flying with me (sometimes) since December, and is quite frankly one of the deadliest pilots I know.

 

For her to go up against a Bomber Wing VOIP Double Premade, walk out with only one kill, 20k damage, and four deaths? That's a sign she got shut down hard.

 

Of course we shut them down hard. All damage values are low in a game that short. You guys can think it's about class balance if you really want, but it is a bit insulting. Again- our group had seven people. I doubt any ace would have very good numbers there. We took more deaths and damage than we would have if we had had a couple gunships, and did a lot less damage, but the outcome was guaranteed.

 

 

So, that picture is telling something about class balance. This wasn't a complete noobstomp, although it sure may have felt that way. There were good pilots in that match that could not break this deployment. It's honestly chilling.

 

Chilling. Brrr!

 

 

Trust me, it would have been a cleaner shutout if we had played something besides just razorwire Or don't. I guess I don't really care.

 

 

Though as noted, a lot of these were stock Razorwires.

 

Certainly true, but it didn't really make a difference as there were just too many of us. You can kinda see it on the scoreboard- the fact that my Razorwire on TEH has mastered heavy lasers makes a pretty big difference, but none of us have mastered mines or shields or (I think) engines.

[Verain]

I'd need to ask her, but I know Sook is somewhat notorious for being able to switch on the fly and still compete. It stands a pretty good chance that she did.

 

Still, I think I agree on the issue of game balance. It's not cool for just one particular class to instantly render anything but something directly calibrated to crush it into a bunch of spitwads.

 

Keep telling yourself it's about class balance. If you say it enough, maybe someone will believe you.

[Zoom_VI]

Dang it, I ran out of popcorn. BRB.

[Verain]

http://memegenerator.net/instance/50323402

 

 

In other news, today our three man premade, accompanied by five noble two-shippers, drove off almost all of an enemy premade. Final score in domination: 4-0, victory by Republic retreat. A farce indeed!

[Drakkolich]

Some people have been asking what we would do if faced with an 8 razorwire team. I took this as a fun thought experiment and worked on ways to counter it if I had the power to choose all 8 ships on my side, further I decided since a lot of people seem to hate bombers I would do it with no bombers.

 

I'd start with a bloodmark/spearpoint with tensor field, this will be used to get my team to the nodes much faster then is possible for the 8 bombers.

 

For the other ships I would bring 7 Imperium/Clarions with a very specific loadout. It would need a full damage reduction build with charged plating, defection armor and the damage reduction crew passive, adding the copilot ability Nulify for those brief periods when charged plating is on cooldown. It would also have repair probes to heal any damage dealt by armor pen heavy's and attrition mine damage.

 

With a focus on 2 nodes, the tensored strike fighters would arrive way before the bombers and capture the node. With all the armor and healing the bombers would be hard pressed to kill even 1 strike fighter, but with 3-4 on each node all alternating healing cooldowns I am confident they could never capture the node. The bombers if all equiped with heavys could break the armor of the strike fighters, but with them all flying evasively and healing it would still be very difficult for them to score even one kill. (I think we all remember how hard it was to kill a strike fighter circling a node in 2.5, and that was with burst laser scouts, not heavy laser bombers)

 

Anyways it was fun to try to think up some strats to counter it, and anyone can def say "well some of them would just get off their bombers and come kill you", but that wasn't the point of coming up with this strat. If you want to counter bombers plus other things you have to mix it up aswell. In my opinion most people focus way too much on clearing the node they forget you need ships to hold it. Once you clear the bombers you still need the ability to hold the nodes and I think this Imperium/Clarion setup is the perfect answer for that.

 

Thanks to everyone who made me think about this, I love theory crafting in game scenarios.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Drakkolich

[tunewalker]

Some people have been asking what we would do if faced with an 8 razorwire team. I took this as a fun thought experiment and worked on ways to counter it if I had the power to choose all 8 ships on my side, further I decided since a lot of people seem to hate bombers I would do it with no bombers.

 

I'd start with a bloodmark/spearpoint with tensor field, this will be used to get my team to the nodes much faster then is possible to the 8 bombers.

 

For the other ships I would bring 7 Imperium/Clarions with a very specific loadout. It would need a full damage reduction build with charged plating, defection armor and the damage reduction crew passive, adding the copilot ability Nulify for those brief periods when charged plating is on cooldown. It would also have repair probes to heal any dmg dealt by armor pen heavys and attrition mine damage.

 

With a focus on 2 nodes, the tensored strike fighters would arrive way before the bombers and capture the node. With all the armor and healing the bombers would be hard pressed to kill even 1 strike fighter, but with 3-4 on each node all alternating healing cooldowns I am confident they could never capture the node. The bombers if all equiped with heavys could break the armor of the strike fighters, but with them all flying evasively and healing it would still be very difficult for them to score even one kill. (I think we all remember how hard ti was to kill a strike fighter circling a node in 2.5, and that was with burst laser scouts, not heavy laser bombers)

 

Anyways it was fun to try to think up some strats to counter it, and anyone can def say well some of them would just get off their bombers and come kill you, but that wasnt the point of coming up with this strat. If you want to counter bombers plus other things you have to mix it up aswell. Imo most people focus way too much on clearing the node they forget you need ships to hold it. Once you clear the bombers you still need the ability to hold the nodes and I think this Imperium/Clarion setup is the perfect answer for that.

 

Thanks to everyone who made me think about this, I love theory crafting ingame scenarios.

 

Further more if we wanted more diversity you could X 2 of those Imperium/Clarion's for a Couple Gunships for Pincering tactic while at least 1 Clarion stays on the node while the other locks a Thermite if it lands that bomber is as good as toast, If one of the clarions has an EMP missile with shield turn off ability the clarions would also be able to wreck the Bomber since either A it wouldnt have its charged plating any more or B it wouldnt have the overcharge shield any more.

 

Imperium/clarions are really underappreciated ships.

[Nemarus]

 

Imperium/clarions are really underappreciated ships.

 

They are. A single Imperium is a great counter to a Seismic Minelayer. However, until Repair Robes and Shield Projector heals can stack from multiple sources, multiple Minelayers can still AOE damage everyone on a node faster than multiple Clarions can AOE heal it.

 

That is why I sometimes wish that mines all distributed damage--meaning some set amount of damage divided equally among all affected targets. That way mines would still be very strong against one or two opponents, but not three or more.

[tunewalker]

They are. A single Imperium is a great counter to a Seismic Minelayer. However, until Repair Robes and Shield Projector heals can stack from multiple sources, multiple Minelayers can still AOE damage everyone on a node faster than multiple Clarions can AOE heal it.

 

That is why I sometimes wish that mines all distributed damage--meaning some set amount of damage divided equally among all affected targets. That way mines would still be very strong against one or two opponents, but not three or more.

 

We dont use Shield projector on the way we talked about this, the mines do hull damage so the best way to handle it is with Charged plating. That was the point of stacking the Clarions. The mines do litterally nothing to them with CHarged plating allowing them to EASILY heal through mine damage. And you dont all through your heals at the same time, you rotate. Minute CD 20 second lasting time, rotating 3 heals.

Edited June 1, 2014 by tunewalker

[MaximilianPower]

Honestly, havign a bomber(s) against me in a normal game makes me mad, I hate the bomber and gunship impact on games... But if I ever got placed against a team like that, I would laugh so hard that I would not mind three-cap defeat.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the original post. I would be so amused I don't think I'd much care how the game turned out. Granted, it would cease to be funny if I ran into that group multiple times, but once? That's pretty good comedy.

[General_Brass]

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the original post. I would be so amused I don't think I'd much care how the game turned out. Granted, it would cease to be funny if I ran into that group multiple times, but once? That's pretty good comedy.

 

You should of played on prophecy of the five it used to be double premades 24-7.

[tunewalker]

You should of played on prophecy of the five it used to be double premades 24-7.

 

note he said multiple games would have been up setting, but 1 game was good comedy.... that was 1 game, not multiple.

[Verain]

I would take Drako's build and add two gunships to it. That would allow for a pincer AND an opening aoe that doesn't require charged plating.

 

That is why I sometimes wish that mines all distributed damage--meaning some set amount of damage divided equally among all affected targets.

 

If mines meteor cleaved, their damage would have to be upped like 2x to 3x.

[Verain]

You know, every time I see this thread, I think it's hilarious that it's addressed to the devs. As if facing seven skilled pilots is something they need to address- not for new players, two ships, or just plain bads, but for premades that are busy rolling the opposite faction, but bail the moment they see the words Dementia, Gunsheep, Vailx- that team has exactly one mastered ship between it, and it isn't mine, or a bomber.

 

"DEVS HELP US WE BLED OUR OWN BLOOD THIS ONE TIME"

 

 

 

 

Obviously, your premade stopped winning for one game, so it's clearly a game design issue.

 

 

Hilarious.

[Zoom_VI]

Obviously, your premade stopped winning for one game, so it's clearly a game design issue.

 

I'm pretty sure its less to do with the fact that you won, and more to do with how you did so.

[Ryuku-sama]

lol....... :eek: Aimbot whining... I'll have see everything.... Nice trolling guys between...

 

Sure Razorwire Double Premade isn't nice... But it's just a LAWL match... Not a SteamRoll match.

[MaximilianPower]

You should of played on prophecy of the five it used to be double premades 24-7.

 

Uh, I played on JC back in beta. I'm used to double premades. Impstomping was pretty much a 24/7 activity in those days. And anyway:

 

note he said multiple games would have been up setting, but 1 game was good comedy.... that was 1 game, not multiple.

 

...exactly.

[QuinMantha]

I'm pretty sure its less to do with the fact that you won, and more to do with how you did so.

 

Yeah, pfft, who cares about you, Verain?

 

We're on about Bombers. Y'all are a different matter.