Bombers abusing interdiction + seismic combos

[phoenixjon]

That doesn't justify the difference of scale. I've seen matches where it's something like 60 kills for the losing team to 20-30 for the winning team.[/i].

 

AlI got out of your whole post was that you think domination matches should be TDM. But, it isn't. Who cares how many kills each team has in domination? The objective of the match is to get 1000 points. If you want to kill 1000 players to get it then that's your prerogative. I'll take the node and watch you kill people. TDM is for killing, and domination is for controlling. Separate them in your head and I'm sure you'll start doing better in domination.

[Kuciwalker]

AlI got out of your whole post was that you think domination matches should be TDM.

 

Then maybe you should learn to read.

[phoenixjon]

Then maybe you should learn to read.

 

The rest of your post is crying about components. So it all just translated in my head like wahhhhhhhhhh or should I say bahhhhhh?

Edited May 28, 2014 by phoenixjon

[Luneward]

 

No, that's on Bioware. Keeping a product line in business isn't my job, I don't get paid for that, others do. Whomever isn't implementing three new game modes, a PvE side of this game, a bunch of new maps, some new ships, and carefully balancing components, along with a lack of advertising- those are the things that will ensure that stuff. "my part" in that is to play the game. That I try to help new players, that I try to recruit players, those are not my job.

 

 

This is a social game. It's on us, too, to foster good community. It may not be our 'job' to recruit or help others, but we do have a social responsibility to not demoralize them and/or wreck their day. I hope to encourage them to keep playing, to give them a leg up when they are behind, to encourage them to keep coming back and playing with me or against me. This is why I keep a ship with a very non-optimized loadout in a lopsided match. This is why I use concussion over interdiction mines (and even then only deploy a bomber when my team is at a high disadvantage).

 

This has precedent. Pot5 used to have a pretty bustling GSF community with really good pilots. I split some of my time between TEH and there and enjoyed it for a bit. When there were only one or two of the elite pilots in a match it was a lot of fun. I'd still usually lose, but I honed my skills flying against them. When it was an entire group or more of them they were a coordinated swarm of destruction that was no fun to play against since there was no effective way for a pug to counter it. I stopped playing and came back here because it was very demoralizing to have an average life span in a match of six seconds after engagement. Evidently many others thought the same. Pot5 is pretty much a GSF ghost town now. Newer pilots stopped playing, and the elites moved to other servers when they no longer had anyone to roll over.

 

If someone cannot understand that their actions have consequences on the community, if they cannot understand they have at least a small amount of social responsibility to make sure other players are having fun as well I will not agree with Nemarus' suggestion. I will not suggest someone leave the server. I suggest they go find a nice single player game to play so that indeed it can be their 'job' to play that game. Out in the real world we don't tend to just roll over other peoples' feelings just because it isn't our 'job' to be polite to them. Well, some people do, but we tend to label them as sociopaths.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Luneward

[Nemarus]

A lot to reply to here, so I'm going to use the Sidenti style.

 

 

So you literally queue up to get farmed and then cry about it on the forums?

 

If my posts about SIM's were just the cries of a sore loser, Interdiction Mine wouldn't be getting nerfed, would it?

 

 

 

"respect of your wingmen"? Do they "respect" you if you can't help them when you would have been able to otherwise?

 

Yes, they do.

 

Why is this about req? Winning and losing are the goals of the game. Fun is related to that to a degree. But requisition is like "this ship needs something, so I'll barrel over to that node we just cleared so I get some requisition, instead of going 180 degrees away to be available faster".

 

I derive a lot more enjoyment from the moment-by-moment exchanges (a clever kill while being focused, an effective team effort to flip a node, etc.) during the match than I do by the final scoreline, or which line of dialog Admiral Ranken reads. And sure, there was a period of time where seeing "Shayd's seismic mine killed X" over and over again gave me a thrill. But eventually that thrill rang hollow. Once the T3 Strike came out, I replaced my Minelayer with it as my sat taker/defender. Is it as easy to play effectively in that role? No. It's far less lethal, but a bit more survivable. But most importantly, when a new pilot attacks me in it, they do at least get to fly around a bit before I blow them up.

 

I enjoy playing with a team, coordinating offensive and defensive, winning, and having a great time. I don't really think you are that far from that, but this sophistry is pretty absurd to read. The only interesting part about your prose is that you have a high density of insults for a post that is ostensibly about whatever side of the argument you need to get on in order to make yourself "correct".

 

If you interpreted my "a few hold-outs who recently arrived" comment as an insult, then you have my apology. It was not my intent. I was simply trying to say that our server's GSF community might be a bit unusual compared to others (especially The Bastion), and that you and your friends may not have acclimated to that community yet. Let me give you some history for context...

 

Early on, GSF competition on TEH was ruthless and fierce. And this ruthlessness and ferocity drove a lot of people away from GSF, especially on the Imperial side. I originally flew on the Republic side (as Nemarus), but saw that the Imperial side was at risk of utter collapse. So I started flying Imperial near-exclusively and created <Eclipse Squadron>. Not to create some uber guild that would melt faces, but just to act as the stabilizing kernel of the Imperial GSF community on the server. Then and now, <Eclipse Squadron> had no requirements for joining except that you be passionate about GSF and queue often. We group from guild members first, then we draft from [Gsf] to fill out the group. Slowly, <Eclipse Squadron>, and by extension the rest of the Imperial GSF side, found its footing again.

 

Additionally, the regular GSF pilots on our server (on both sides) began communicating regularly, first in our server forum, and later in the [Gsf] channels I created and evangelized (again on both sides). And in those threads and channels, we certainly collectively agreed that certain builds and tactics were cheese, and that they reduced accessibility for new pilots and the frequency of "fun moments" that actually occur in the course of a game. And generally speaking, those builds would then see less and less use as people got tired of winning by build instead of by skill.

 

There were no contracts signed. No mass Pledge of Commitment to Never Fly Flashfires Against Noobs. But for most veterans, there was a vested interest in keeping the server's GSF community healthy, and that meant choosing ships/components/targets with care sometimes. Is it universal? No. But it has been qualitatively observable over the long term, and not just in my head. Believe me or don't.

 

I believe that this open communication between both sides, while not unique to The Ebon Hawk, is more prevalent here than elsewhere. With a cursory glance at TEH's server forum vs. The Basion's, I see 3 GSF-related posts on the first page for TEH, and I don't see any GSF-related posts on The Bastion's. Granted, that's a small sample, but I can' t recall a single day there wasn't at least one GSF post on the first page of our server forums. And most of those posts are shout-outs to other pilots, offering respect to them for a good game. I believe receiving those shout-outs, and receiving regular group invites, is far more important than winning to many--if not most--TEH pilots.

 

Getting back to the history lesson ... a few weeks ago, Aimbot, Friendlygurl, Swansea, and Pylan came to the server and rolled pub. And in a matter of a week or two, they nearly destroyed the Imperial community again. It wasn't their fault. They didn't know the state of our server before coming, and they probably assumed (because of all the theory/records posting I do) that my side was the stronger side. But it wasn't. A lot of my veterans had vanished due to RL distractions, and I was still largely working with new pilots.

 

And so I told Aimbot this. And immediately, he and his friends made Imperial alts, and now they flip sides as required to keep competition as interesting as possible, given GSF's crappy matchmaking. And then they went in The Ebon Hawk forums and offered to run classes and teach other pilots in both factions. And they fly a wide variety of ships, especially against PUG's. They could've stayed Republic and used their favorite power-ships to farm the Imperial side into oblivion, but they didn't--instead they put the server community ahead of their own immediate, short-term interests. The result has been much healthier queues. That is why I vehemently defend them against any idiot who accuses them of hacking. They are good people.

 

So yes, I do believe that there is going to be a qualitatively observable difference between the community on an RP-PvE server vs. the community on a PvP server. And if you four just came here for easy wins and to troll crappy pilots, you'll have an easy time doing it. But my initial conversations with Drakolich and Dementia lead me to believe that's not what you're after. Those two, at least, have been pretty positive and polite on [Gsf].

 

Maybe, like Aimbot and friends, you guys arrived on this server expecting some awesome competition requiring your fiercest PvP A-game. And maybe that's why you've been running you're Minelayer/beacon scheme, and maybe that's why Gunsheep felt justified in jumping on [Gsf] and insulting a bunch of his own faction during his first week on the server. Maybe that's just how the community is on The Bastion. But it's simply not required here. The vast majority of The Ebon Hawk pilots are casuals, either in skill or attitude or both.

 

So again, when I mentioned the "recent transfer hold-outs" I simply meant you guys maybe didn't realize what kind of pool you'd jumped into yet. I had no idea it'd cause you to get so agitated and personal, especially considering my opinion of you had started to warm up of late.

 

On THAT note, I'll agree- but only because the PUGs have no chance at winning. In fact, the boy bomber has a hard time diving and getting kills with just heavy laser and an area denial, and you might end up sitting at a node with nothing to do because the enemy pugs are without meaning.

 

That's not honor, that's not pity, that's not kindness.

 

"Instead of guarding a node, I farm them. For great honor!"

 

Ladies and gentlemen, Nemarus! Clear king of the forums with such powerful prose as this! Come queue Ebon Hawk one and all, but know this: should you defeat him in battle, it is truly he who has vanquished you!*

 

It's not about honor, nor is it about letting PUG's win. It's about letting them play and learn--that means not spawn camping, not putting a SIM on every node, not 3-capping when it's not required, not going on DO farm-sprees to try and beat some forum DPS record, not flying your best ship every match.

 

 

No, that's on Bioware. Keeping a product line in business isn't my job, I don't get paid for that, others do. Whomever isn't implementing three new game modes, a PvE side of this game, a bunch of new maps, some new ships, and carefully balancing components, along with a lack of advertising- those are the things that will ensure that stuff. "my part" in that is to play the game. That I try to help new players, that I try to recruit players, those are not my job.

 

This is a social game. Yes, BioWare provides the game, and thus provides some of the content. But the community provides the rest. GSF has many flaws--poor tutorial, poor matchmaking, poor choices for initial ships, poor in-game communication tools. Yes, we can put our heads in the sand and say, "It's BioWare's job to fix that, not mine!" But we know BioWare does not have the budget or prioritization to address all of those issues any time soon. So if we want to keep the GSF community healthy, we as players and providers of PvP content have to take steps to mitigate GSF's inherent flaws.

 

I give the following courtesies to RP servers, and that is all:

I don't generate a name or character meant to mock, I don't mock RPers who are doing their thing, and if I walk into an event I will respond in character and extricate myself.

 

But your pvp queues are not an RP zone, nor will they be treated as such. And I guess you're King of Ebon Hawk Population too, as you're actually trying to tell me (us?) to leave now? What a riot!

 

King of Ebon Hawk Population? No. But a prominent member of its GSF community, who has spent my own time, money and energy into trying to improve that community? Yes. I wouldn't be having this discussion with you if I didn't care and feel strongly. And I think that's a good thing. If GSF on TEH ever gets to such point where even I (an obsessed GSF-nut and guildmaster) don't want to queue anymore, my guess is a lot of other less-obsessed pilots will have already quit queuing before I did. And without others queuing, there is no content.

 

And no, I am not telling you to leave. I am just telling you, as new arrivals to our server, what the community is like, in my opinion. As someone who has GSF'd nearly daily since launch, exclusively on this server, I would think that my qualitative observations about the server's GSF community warrant some consideration. But you should certainly ask others. Whether you believe me or not, or whether you think this server meets your needs/desires or not, is up to you.

 

Is it the one where lesser members of TEH log over and accuse us of hacking, words that I can't type on the forum, and otherwise have a population of players that behave with absolute certainty that they are the only sentient being and that no one else matters at all? Is it the thing where someone plays objectively badly, gets farmed, and then gets so angry about it and blames everything but the fact that they just didn't play correctly? Is it the thing where we can kill the queues by queuing four times in succession (if premades aren't around, ofc), whereas Bastion isn't full of rage quitters that create lowbies to insult and threaten us?

 

Qualitative difference indeed!

 

Every server has its idiots, and you can bet I call them out on it. As for ragequitters, you have to keep in mind that the base population for this server is a very different set of people than the base population for The Bastion. On The Bastion, the vast majority of people who created characters there had some experience/interest in PvP. They will be far more resilient to not only losing, but losing hard. That's the nature of PvP.

 

On The Ebon Hawk, you can't assume that. Some of them have never done any PvP before GSG. Some of them are RPers who have RP'd pilots for years, and only now get the chance to play out that aspect of their fantasy. Some of them are ground PvPers, but are absolutely horrid at any kind of twitch-based gameplay.

 

The rest of your post is actually kind of interesting. I'll briefly say that boy bombers don't kill mysteriously, and if they do, it's an animation issue where the mine isn't clear about the explosion radius when it explodes. If the animation filled the sphere with red, I think you'd see players responding very fast in the future and treating mines with the caution they deserve at lower skill levels (decent players don't have that issue, but I believe this is an animation issue).

 

The "mystery" of Bombers on a node is basically the paradox new players are presented with: their team is yelling at them to FIGHT ON THE NODE, FIGHT ON THE NODE! but if there is a Bomber there, doing so means near-instant death. The mystery is that those new players have no idea how to counter mines. They try shooting the mines---the mines still damage them if they are in range. They try to stack shields--shields do nothing. They don't yet know all the intricacies of how to take down a Bomber--of EMP Missiles or Charged Plating or Armor Piercing weapons or the importance of burst damage.

 

Whereas if I'm sitting on a node with my Imperium, the solution is simpler--stay on my tail and shoot me until I'm dead. Difficult, but there is a visible and apparent path to victory.

 

Even gunships suffer from this problem, as the railshot is visibly detectable after it fires. If I had a starfighter, I'd have like, some webcams on it? And if a railshot went right past me and I visibly detected it, I'd whistle or chirp or something.

 

One solution is just increasing rate of fire and reducing burst damage on a Gunship. Or at the very least getting rid of the shield-piercing.

 

So many problems with accessibility can be solved by getting rid of shield-piercing, because shields are the perfect warning system indicating you need to take defensive action to avoid imminent death.

 

Battlescouts at least make noises when they do their thing, but recognizing the sounds for their self buffs takes a lot of time and isn't intuitive.

 

And even if you do know what's coming, there's not a ton you can do about it in many ships.

 

I disagree. But I will say this: if I shoot a railgun at a scout and he evades it (his ship does), whether he keeps flying or swaps to LOS me is entirely a function of whether he saw the railshot. Given that a strike fighter makes everything beep just by THINKING about shooting a missile, I think it would be reasonable to fix that.

 

Mmhmm. This is why I once suggested a tracer line in anticipation of a railgun (similar to the Spartan Laser in Halo, if you're familiar with it).

 

i think almost all of this games "accessibility" issues are a result of a lack of UI elements or in game warnings that "should" properly be available. Railguns are fine. Bombers are mostly fine. Battle scouts are mostly fine. The bomber nerf will likely be an overnerf, but bombers will still have roles. Battle scouts need attention, likely to their TTK with cooldown.

 

Again, shields are already the best warning system the game has. The problem is shield piercing invalidates that warning.

 

Want to make newbs have an easier time?

 

Threespace map or bugeye map

Artificial horizon

Compass

Altimeter

 

Right now, you learn the levels by playing so many games that you memorize every rock from every direction. That's pretty hardcore. Maybe a starfighter would have something better to help with that, you know?

 

No disagreements here.

 

Ship balance is a mile away from this game's top accessibility issues. UI issues, the ability to understand what is going on, graphics issues including mines with inaccurate signalling spheres, lack of documentation of when to aim at the targeting circle and when to lead it, lack of more than two ships and a tricky requirement to spend at least a few cartel coins early on or never have the fleet you want, lack of noobs starting with a gunship and a bomber so they can actually try the different classes.

 

Again, I do think that shield-piercing is the one "ship balance" issue that actually factors heavily into accessibility, because shields should be the universal warning of imminent death, but I'm content to agree to disagree on that point.

 

Those are issues new players face. "We tie you in a sack and beat you" is the current way the game is set up. You're like "as a gentleman, you should be using a smaller bat to beat the new player".

OR we could get rid of the sack!

 

We cannot get rid of the sack, and BioWare does not have the budget to get rid of the sack. So instead we have to use smaller and softer bats, and also whisper to the person in the sack about how to maybe get out of the sack. And maybe we occasionally even stop swinging at the sack to let the person inside get their bearings..

 

Scouts and gunships get kills in ways players don't understand and have to learn to prevent, while a new player should figure out pretty early on that mines are easy to avoid. I don't understand how bombers could be listed in the same setup as the other two tbh.

 

You're right in that it's not entirely the same. It's more the paradox of "I need to fight on the node, but there's this death turtle on the node that I can't hurt without getting bit". At least after 2.8, its will bite slightly less hard.

 

"Huh, I flew over to that big slow ship that drops little things out of him, and then I died. What happens if I don't go over there? Oh, he didn't kill me."

 

If you don't go over there, your team loses--I know it's not really that simple, but I think that's what's going on in newbies' heads.

 

 

Verain, if I came off as somehow holier than thou, or as thinking that I'm Gatekeeper of the Ebon Hawk, that was not my intent, and I apologize. I certainly am fiercely defensive of my server--especially its GSF community--as I've played a pretty prominent part in its history.

 

And I am glad you guys are here, and especially that you rolled on the Imp side. I think with your arrival, the factions are fairly decently balanced, and I've already had positive interactions with Drakolich and Dementia.

 

I just want you guys to understand that The Ebon Hawk might be a different place than where you came from, and that social and gameplay interactions may be quite different.

 

In short, my biggest piece of advice to you guys would just be to chill out and have fun.

[HuNtOziO]

Some nice topic ninja-ing going on here, large essays

 

more TL;DR please.

 

 

But going back on topic, to the person who said use rocket pods on a scout, tried that before but literally get splatted in one second against any competent team. Remaining stationary on a scout to snipe a few mines means whatever else is after me by that point basically one shots me, it can work sort of though when just you vs a bomber at a node with nobody else around.

 

Buffed EMP field coming up should also greatly help with that.

[Luneward]

I think that's part of the fundamental issue with bombers. Rocket pods work... but not when you are alone. Proton torps and concussion missiles work... but not solo against a bomber around a sat. Newbie bombers can be taken out without too much trouble, but experienced pilots pretty much require a coordinated pincer attack to take out - and most pugs just don't have that, which is why a coordinated group with bombers is absolutely lethal.

 

It was more than a bit of a highjack - but on the other side it wasn't. Bombers expose a lot of interesting and ugly trends in the social structure in GSF. A large part of taking out a bomber is knowing who/what is defending them and neutralizing that. Not everyone needs to be able to kill a bomber so long as you can help with their friends. Though I admit it is frustrating not to have any solo recourse sometimes in neutralizing them.

[QuinMantha]

Could use harsh language.

 

Sometimes, that's about all I've got to throw at them.

[HuNtOziO]

I think that's part of the fundamental issue with bombers. Rocket pods work... but not when you are alone. Proton torps and concussion missiles work... but not solo against a bomber around a sat. Newbie bombers can be taken out without too much trouble, but experienced pilots pretty much require a coordinated pincer attack to take out - and most pugs just don't have that, which is why a coordinated group with bombers is absolutely lethal.

 

It was more than a bit of a highjack - but on the other side it wasn't. Bombers expose a lot of interesting and ugly trends in the social structure in GSF. A large part of taking out a bomber is knowing who/what is defending them and neutralizing that. Not everyone needs to be able to kill a bomber so long as you can help with their friends. Though I admit it is frustrating not to have any solo recourse sometimes in neutralizing them.

 

Basically this, well put.

 

It takes far more effort to take out a coordinated bomber team than it does to actually play one of those bombers with teammates

 

Bit of a balance disparity going on here, why is the counter significantly harder than to simply roll one and play it yourself? Essentially promoting a re-rolling derp fest. Cant beat them! join them! add to the problem and spam mines, (as thats actually the best counter.... insane design decisions)

Edited May 28, 2014 by HuNtOziO

[Slinktress]

Even then if they have a good team around them (the bombers) the enemy scouts will tear the **** out of your teams gunships before they can even get in positions above and below the node.

 

You will basically have to fly bodyguard for your gunships.

 

I dont know any premades on the red eclipse for GSF that i can fly with, I run nova there but not many people in my guild play GSF.

 

Currently ive resorted to making a striker (the support one) designed purely to face tank mines and bombers, repair drones, charged plating, uber shield buff talents + crew, DR increasing talents/buffs too. fly in there, activate stuff blow up all mines then chase bomber or try to line up a thermite torpedo shot, thermites mess bombers up something rotten but actually getting one fired off is nigh impossible.

 

Ah well

 

Look for a guy in your Republic guild (I think he said it was Nova) with "Matt" in his alts names... he's just started getting into GSF, and resubbed for tomorrow Euro TZ. We have an open TS you can join; might be helpful. My alt on there is Cassanndra if you want to drop me a note too.

 

Also, most bombs can be hit with missiles before they blow you up, just remember to hit slow or X to not get too close before it's shot down. I've seen a good premade on your server render our bomber useless in no time.

 

The biggest bomber abuse we saw was dropping one while in full flight mode to kill the guy behind him that was shooting. This ability to fly fast and shoot behind without targeting breaks the platform of GSF.

[Asbetos]

The biggest bomber abuse we saw was dropping one while in full flight mode to kill the guy behind him that was shooting. This ability to fly fast and shoot behind without targeting breaks the platform of GSF.

 

You aren't supposed to be flying behind a bomber, unless you have a death wish or don't mind eating a few mines in your face. You're supposed to approach it from above or below.

[Slinktress]

You aren't supposed to be flying behind a bomber, unless you have a death wish or don't mind eating a few mines in your face. You're supposed to approach it from above or below.

 

Can you explain how this works with a 2-3% arc on a noob ship in a chase and shoot fight?

 

'Don't fight' is not an option... every ship should have a CHANCE against every other ship on the field, or GSF is more broken than I imagined. Kiting the enemy until your bomb cooldown is up and then poop-blasting them out the rear seems a little broken, still.

[Asbetos]

Can you explain how this works with a 2-3% arc on a noob ship in a chase and shoot fight?

 

Compared to a bomber, a scout has an endless engine power pool and is significantly faster... You can (and should) disengange, get a better angle and try again.

 

'Don't fight' is not an option... every ship should have a CHANCE against every other ship on the field, or GSF is more broken than I imagined. Kiting the enemy until your bomb cooldown is up and then poop-blasting them out the rear seems a little broken, still.

 

Every ship does have a CHANCE against every other ship, the difference is which ship is the most effective for the job (eg. a bomber has a CHANCE against a gunsheep, but how easy it'll be is a whole different matter), nothing broken or wrong about that. The only "broken" thing is that a few ships are slightly overtuned (minelayer which might get fixed with the patch, T2 scout about which there are countless topics about).

Edited May 29, 2014 by Asbetos

[General_Brass]

Can you explain how this works with a 2-3% arc on a noob ship in a chase and shoot fight?

 

'Don't fight' is not an option... every ship should have a CHANCE against every other ship on the field, or GSF is more broken than I imagined. Kiting the enemy until your bomb cooldown is up and then poop-blasting them out the rear seems a little broken, still.

 

Bomber + Fully turreted satellite shouldn't be a pushover for any one ship to take down. If they were it would mean bombers were horribly underpowered and couldn't do the one job they are meant to do (area control/denial) at all well.

[tunewalker]

A lot to reply to here, so I'm going to use the Sidenti style.

 

 

 

Verain, if I came off as somehow holier than thou, or as thinking that I'm Gatekeeper of the Ebon Hawk, that was not my intent, and I apologize. I certainly am fiercely defensive of my server--especially its GSF community--as I've played a pretty prominent part in its history.

 

And I am glad you guys are here, and especially that you rolled on the Imp side. I think with your arrival, the factions are fairly decently balanced, and I've already had positive interactions with Drakolich and Dementia.

 

I just want you guys to understand that The Ebon Hawk might be a different place than where you came from, and that social and gameplay interactions may be quite different.

 

In short, my biggest piece of advice to you guys would just be to chill out and have fun.

 

Ok as one of the Bastion members, I see where you are coming from as far as healthy community goes, I understand that (my first sever before mergers was a RP-PvP server called Crucible Pits) So i get what you are saying about RPers to a degree. I also Dont play a SIM bomber I play a Conc mine bomber currently because I havent earned enough req on any of my ships on Hawk to really do anything.

 

 

Now here is the thing. A new player does not learn how to deal with bombers if they are never presented by them or never have to face them. Concussion mines and seismic are not being nerfed in any way and interdiction mines thanks to the slow are going to be just as deadly to new players as they are with their hull damage now. If everyone just stopped playing bombers in Domination then those new players when they become aces, and some one rolls up in a bomber because thats the ship they like playing or what have you. Those newbies who became vets are still just as green as day one since they never encountered this type of ship before.

 

 

Give a man a fish you feed him for one day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time. Not using bombers on noobs is just feeding them easier stuff, you get them by for a day. But using the bomber on the noobs shows them this is what you have to figure out how to beat to compete in Dom matches. You are teaching the person to fish, you are showing them the playstyle. Will they die a lot to it? yes. Will a few be able to look at and easily see why they died? yes. Will those that saw how they died start to think of ways not to die and try to hurt the bomber in the process? yes. Will most of those ways fail? yes. Will they eventually find a way to do it and thus become a better player for it? Absolutely yes.

 

 

People running Charged plating in any ship is nearly invincible to a new player thanks to the lack of armor piercing on the stock ships. This is more unfair then any kind of mine situation because nothing the enemy player will do will actually harm the guy with Charged Plating. Same with evasion and constant missing. The new player will just look at that and might just end up thinking "hax" unless they read the components. If they do that, then this whole "wont understand bombers" thing goes out the window. Just looking at the bombers components even pre buying a bomber you will very quickly see that none of their engine options will break missiles.

 

 

The ship type chosen doesnt matter, and holding a players hand does not teach them how to play. The bastion crew has always and WILL always be willing to freely give out any information to any player that asks. Draq, stasie and pincer have all made threads specifically for that.

 

 

I will be on tomorrow "Aquilon-tune" and if you want message me, but civility is what I ask. If you dont know what I am talking about, contact me tomorow and you will.

[Danylia]

Give a man a fish you feed him for one day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time. Not using bombers on noobs is just feeding them easier stuff, you get them by for a day. But using the bomber on the noobs shows them this is what you have to figure out how to beat to compete in Dom matches. You are teaching the person to fish, you are showing them the playstyle. Will they die a lot to it? yes. Will a few be able to look at and easily see why they died? yes. Will those that saw how they died start to think of ways not to die and try to hurt the bomber in the process? yes. Will most of those ways fail? yes. Will they eventually find a way to do it and thus become a better player for it? Absolutely yes.

While I understand the point you are making, there are some additional factors to consider:

- you want to teach the man with butterfly net (newbie in stock ship) by pointing them in the Moby Dick direction (Minelayer). Maybe pointing them in the tiddler direction would be better for the start?

- 9 out of 10 persons going for the Moby Dick will drown (stop queueing) before they properly learn to navigate the boat and purchase a real fishing net.

[Sidenti]

Some nice topic ninja-ing going on here, large essays

 

more TL;DR please.

 

 

But going back on topic, to the person who said use rocket pods on a scout, tried that before but literally get splatted in one second against any competent team. Remaining stationary on a scout to snipe a few mines means whatever else is after me by that point basically one shots me, it can work sort of though when just you vs a bomber at a node with nobody else around.

 

Buffed EMP field coming up should also greatly help with that.

 

EMP is good, but here's what I do as a bomber: I hold a few tricks up my sleeve to wait until someone pops it.

 

I don't typically cycle my drones. Sometimes I will, but a lot of times I'll hold one of each in reserve, ready to slide out as soon as someone pops EMP. (I have yet to see someone try to make a second pass, which makes this tactic VERY effective.) One guy Impside targeted my railgun drone, killed it, and died to the second one I shot out immediately after.

 

So, if you're gonna rely on EMP, be careful of that tactic. (Oh, and never, ever go stationary. Slow down? Sure. But I've never been a stop-and-pop kinda guy. Trust me - the rockets work and work well with practice.) -bp

Edited May 29, 2014 by Sidenti

[Kuciwalker]

That doesn't justify the difference of scale. I've seen matches where it's something like 60 kills for the losing team to 20-30 for the winning team.

 

I went back to look at the screenshot I took of one match like this (the 32-assist match where at least some of the bombers were suiciding). It was 56 kills to 30, and 357k damage to 152k. It is kind of nuts if the tactic "stack bombers on the node" is substantially better than 26 kills and 205k damage.

[Verain]

Playing the objectives wins? Sounds correct to me.

 

The scoreboard isn't the win condition.

[phoenixjon]

Playing the objectives wins? Sounds correct to me.

 

The scoreboard isn't the win condition.

 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!!? Kills and damage always reign supreme. If anything you should have learned this with ground pvp!

[Kuciwalker]

Playing the objectives wins? Sounds correct to me.

 

The scoreboard isn't the win condition.

 

Both teams were playing the objectives. Those kills were, for the most part, of enemy bombers on the node. The bombers chose the "superior tactic" of "well I will respawn often enough that we can just soak up the incoming damage". I am suggesting that that tactic should be less effective, and that actually fighting back should be required.

 

And while we're on the subject of the ground game: how often do you see any match but Huttball have this wide a disparity between "combat performance" and "winning", particularly when both teams really are playing the objective (contrast a losting team in Denova that just defends south or whatever)? The objective mechanics in SWTOR just do not allow a defender that is dying at twice the rate of its attacker, consistently, all game long, to actually hold its objective. (Unless the total death rate is really low because heals or terrible DPS, but none of those were a factor in my example.)

 

Again, we have a strategy of "orbit the node hit two buttons every fifteen seconds", applied en masse, that is overwhelmingly superior to virtually any other strategy. The fact that the strategy would stop working completely if the respawn gate timing were extended to ground game lengths should be a huge red flag.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[phoenixjon]

Both teams were playing the objectives. Those kills were, for the most part, of enemy bombers on the node. The bombers chose the "superior tactic" of "well I will respawn often enough that we can just soak up the incoming damage". I am suggesting that that tactic should be less effective, and that actually fighting back should be required.

 

And while we're on the subject of the ground game: how often do you see any match but Huttball have this wide a disparity between "combat performance" and "winning", particularly when both teams really are playing the objective (contrast a losting team in Denova that just defends south or whatever)? The objective mechanics in SWTOR just do not allow a defender that is dying at twice the rate of its attacker, consistently, all game long, to actually hold its objective. (Unless the total death rate is really low because heals or terrible DPS, but none of those were a factor in my example.)

 

Again, we have a strategy of "orbit the node hit two buttons every fifteen seconds", applied en masse, that is overwhelmingly superior to virtually any other strategy. The fact that the strategy would stop working completely if the respawn gate timing were extended to ground game lengths should be a huge red flag.

 

You already claimed it's a superior strategy. So, if you know it's superior then use it. As for fighting back, they chose to play something to soak damage and lost offensive capability. Just because your team can roll multiple gunships and right click then left click means they are better then hitting 1, 3, and 4 (Bombers hit 3 buttons when you only hit 2 does that make them better? See what I did there?).

 

As a side note for ground pvp (and this should be the last mention of it) thre are a lot of games that you make the sacrifice to win the game. This could include: stalling at a node in novare or alderaan, staggering deaths on voidstar or alderaan, and distracting for huttball scores. So yes, those games can be determined by strategy more then killing people. I'll concede having better damage/kills makes it EASIER but by no means does facerolling mean you autowin.

[Nemarus]

You already claimed it's a superior strategy. So, if you know it's superior then use it.

 

Everyone flying Bombers and/or Gunships. Sounds thrilling and accessible. That'll keep fast queues popping on every server for a long time to come.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Nemarus

[Kuciwalker]

You already claimed it's a superior strategy. So, if you know it's superior then use it.

 

Do you agree with the thesis that the optimal domination strategy is "more bombers"?

 

If so, do you think that's good game design?

 

As a side note for ground pvp (and this should be the last mention of it) thre are a lot of games that you make the sacrifice to win the game. This could include: stalling at a node in novare or alderaan, staggering deaths on voidstar or alderaan, and distracting for huttball scores. So yes, those games can be determined by strategy more then killing people.

 

Yes, all of those things happen. And yet it would be an odd Alderaan match indeed that consisted entirely of one team spawning, running to the node, interrupting a cap, and then dying (repeat until match over).

 

In fact the respawn timers on every match have been calibrated to avoid precisely this sort of possibility. They've tweaked the speeders on Alderaan multiple times to prevent this; they created long gated respawns on every other map to prevent this.

 

Do you have any actual objection to lengthening the GSF respawn gate to be more like Denova's?

 

I'll concede having better damage/kills makes it EASIER but by no means does facerolling mean you autowin.

 

Yes, there should essentially be some sort of exchange rate between superior flying and "tactics". With the bomberball that exchange rate is too steep; even extreme battlefield superiority is countered by a very simple strategy that is comparatively easy to execute.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Kuciwalker