Devs: It's time to try some tweaks on Burst Laser Cannons

[Karlbadmanners]

I've swapped fully to quad cannons at this point for my scout(my primary ship) BLC's were just too situational for me.

EDIT: I regularly win Deathmatch for max kills around 20-25 kills, nothing amazing compared to what I've seen others on here do but it works for me.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Karlbadmanners

[mr_sim]

EDIT: I regularly win Deathmatch for max kills around 20-25 kills, nothing amazing compared to what I've seen others on here do but it works for me.

 

This guy being serious right now? I never see that kind of performance on Jedi Covenant it might happen for 1 person in a 100 matches. I don't think it's a lack of pilot quality either. To my experience the only way you get a kill count like that is if you have 0 matchmaking balance.

 

No really are you telling me one person does 40-50% of his teams kills on a regular basis or is this poorly generated hyperbole?

[General_Brass]

This guy being serious right now? I never see that kind of performance on Jedi Covenant it might happen for 1 person in a 100 matches. I don't think it's a lack of pilot quality either. To my experience the only way you get a kill count like that is if you have 0 matchmaking balance.

 

No really are you telling me one person does 40-50% of his teams kills on a regular basis or is this poorly generated hyperbole?

 

That's pretty common most servers. (Of those I am familiar with). You get a completely worthless match, somebody realizes it, takes out their mastered gunship or battlescout and goes to town on the "FOOD THAT HAS TO BE EATEN".

Edited May 14, 2014 by General_Brass

[mr_sim]

That's pretty common most servers. (Of those I am familiar with). You get a completely worthless match, somebody realizes it, takes out their mastered gunship or battlescout and goes to town on the "FOOD THAT HAS TO BE EATEN".

 

Wow in a match like that I pull out my weakest ship, it evens things out and gets those ships closer to the mastery achievement. I never go farming Never. I actually got my 15 kill in one match achievement on my Dustmaker not my Mangler my Dustmaker because it was still one of those matches.

[Ryuku-sama]

This guy being serious right now? I never see that kind of performance on Jedi Covenant it might happen for 1 person in a 100 matches. I don't think it's a lack of pilot quality either. To my experience the only way you get a kill count like that is if you have 0 matchmaking balance.

 

No really are you telling me one person does 40-50% of his teams kills on a regular basis or is this poorly generated hyperbole?

 

Friendlygurl (Rumina) TEH. Balanced match. He is in a stock Ocula. Team are 3/4-shippers maybe 1 or 2 5-shippers. I'm the only 2-shipper out there (even if my StarGurad is quite well mastered). He pull out those numbers. I unfortunately don't have a screenshot to prove my point. And I saw him pulling 20-30 kills a match quite often.

 

One thing though. It's NOT a flashfire issue, it's a pilot issue. So NERF ACE PLZZZZ

[Karlbadmanners]

...it's not hyperbole, and it's far from every match that ends that way, but it's common, I often see gunships right a kill or two ahead or behind, I played too much wing commander?

EDIT: btw is there something wrong with really only liking to fly my S-13? Sure it'd be nice to get my other ships up faster but it's the one I like to fly, I'm not going to fly a ship I dislike especially when I've been waiting 45mins in the queue.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Karlbadmanners

[Pilgrim_Grey]

I'm not convinced it's just the boosts T2 scouts get that makes BLC over the top, because it is really good at close range. I'd think a little tweaking could bring it down from how insanely good it is right now. This all might be an argument for looking at how good those other buffs are like damage overcharge, from how people are talking.

 

*added*

 

And Loc_n_lol, it's not all hyperbole. Now that gunships can't fly all over the map, they are a lot more vulnerable, and BLCs do help them to take on the scouts and such that get up close or when their team isn't supporting them (and gunships are a support class, like bombers... they can get a bit hurt if they're not where they are strong or are on the way to an objective). So I would be really careful of how BLCs are adjusted.

 

Part of what makes Fortress Shield semi-viable (with the PTS changes) is a GS being able to do good damage for someone that gets up close, too. It'd be good for design to stick with that.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Pilgrim_Grey

[wvwraith]

I'm going to have to disagree with blcs needed on gunships. I'd rather have heavy lasers or quads. Personally, I've tried these lots of times when enemies were right on me and only 2/10 times did they actually hit something. I'd rather shoot them in the face with a slug which I've done on a few occasions. If I'm not sure on a shot that close then its time to scoot away and reposition.

 

I think if they took 100% armor piercing away from blcs that should balance them some.

[SammyGStatus]

I'm going to have to disagree with blcs needed on gunships. I'd rather have heavy lasers or quads. Personally, I've tried these lots of times when enemies were right on me and only 2/10 times did they actually hit something. I'd rather shoot them in the face with a slug which I've done on a few occasions. If I'm not sure on a shot that close then its time to scoot away and reposition.

 

I think if they took 100% armor piercing away from blcs that should balance them some.

 

Since the options are light lasers or BLCs, this doesn't matter - these are the choices. It also wouldn't make sense with how a GS is forced to play. They're supposed to be snipe, run, snipe, run, and should something come close to you, you need to execute it quickly (considering the amount of damage a T2 scout with TT+CF+Quads can do). Giving the GS a different blaster would FORCE a dogfight, which is not how the class is supposed to be played.

 

ROFL.

Get out gunsheep whore.

Say something worthwhile or don't speak. K thanks bye

 

EDIT: Also, just because a slug is a GS's primary weapon doesn't mean that we deserve a BLC nerf. You'd be essentially saying "Wanna beat a gunship? Just get within 5k".... ya, no. Every ship deserves A CHANCE at close quarters. Long range offers many ways to avoid being hit by railguns, but most of the time the people complaining just don't want to adapt to the situation at hand.

Edited May 14, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[Loc_n_lol]

Every ship deserves A CHANCE at close quarters.

 

Yeah. well. You know what ? I kinda lost it earlier. But you're being ridiculous defending your cookie-cutter build that's been easy-mode since release against all possible nerfs.

 

The T1 gunship is a pure sniper. That is its strength, and it should be its weakness too.

If all you want is a chance at close range, you'll find that nerfed BLCs & LLCs are more than good enough. No need to stack the best of everything on the same ship and that's as true for T2 scouts as for T1 gunships. There shouldn't even be a "best" anything.

[Braize]

Please leave BLCs on a Gunship alone!!! With Light Lasers being the alternative, I really don't want to fire and do absolutely nothing when I'm forced to engage close range. If you need to tweak, find a way to tweak scouts only por favor!

 

Really? And this is different to everyone else who can do nothing as you 1-shot them across half the map how?

[mr_sim]

Yeah. well. You know what ? I kinda lost it earlier. But you're being ridiculous defending your cookie-cutter build that's been easy-mode since release against all possible nerfs.

 

The T1 gunship is a pure sniper. That is its strength, and it should be its weakness too.

If all you want is a chance at close range, you'll find that nerfed BLCs & LLCs are more than good enough. No need to stack the best of everything on the same ship and that's as true for T2 scouts as for T1 gunships. There shouldn't even be a "best" anything.

 

Yeah this is the idea I've been hinting at. He's right the T1 GS is considered the ONLY GS by most pilots, Admit it nobody likes the Dustmaker over the Mangler it is in fact an inferior ship and no BLC is 40% of the reason.

 

Nerfing BLC will not destroy the T1 GS, it'll still be the best and true GS in the game. Lets fact it BioWare will only ever take the edge off anyway, they are not known for doing truly traumatic nerfs(and I'm a Sniper See: OS nerf).

[SammyGStatus]

Really? And this is different to everyone else who can do nothing as you 1-shot them across half the map how?

 

Who said they can't do anything? Situational awareness is how you beat a gunship. LOS, get out of range and then zoom in close, and pew pew. Not focusing and playing against a gunship isn't a fault of the gunship.

 

Everyone just wants to keep nerfing GSs - Ion Tap, fine because it's needed. BR cost, eh. BR cooldown, nope. Now there's talk to reduce ANOTHER component? I don't agree with this. I have fun playing against GOOD pilots because they know how to play against a GS. It seems like no one else besides these guys know what to do. Tom and Scrab still do better than I do most matches in quad scouts, and they actually have the ability to evade (from mobility, which is something I think people are forgetting here). You lock down a GS and he's done. That's it. But after all these nerfs and you still want to take a go at reducing the effectiveness more? Try playing a GS an putting up the numbers that the good GSs do - bet that unless you know what you're doing (LIKE ANY SHIP), you won't. The GS is more than balanced considering the meta.

 

Scouts can do insane amount of damage in a short amount of time. The time to kill is drastically less for a scout than a GS (assuming CDs). Regardless, if a BLC nerf hit, I'd be pissed but we'd still be doing what we're doing now - again, the fault is with the competition not knowing how to play.

Edited May 14, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[Braize]

I personally could care less if Gunships were removed. They just simply ruin everything.

 

There is nothing more anti-fun than being in a decent dogfight, just to have someone get 1 shot from a sissy parked halfway across the map. It is lame.

 

People hate snipers in every single FPS out there. They are those whiny sissies who just sit out of every fight and win with one shot. Your team? Yes they hate you too because you ruin their fights and/or steal their kills every chance you get. All just to pad your own K: D ratio. Just go away, nobody likes you on EITHER team. You ruin fun.

[Braize]

Who said they can't do anything? Situational awareness is how you beat a gunship. LOS, get out of range and then zoom in close, and pew pew. Not focusing and playing against a gunship isn't a fault of the gunship.

 

LOL yeah bud, sit back there out of the fight and tell everyone that they lack "situational awareness". Sorry little sissy, but I'm in there actually, you know, fighting?

 

Either way, don't try to tell people that they need to pay attention to YOU while they got 3 other fighters gunning for them. If you actually participated in a real fight, you would know this.

 

If you played a Strike Fighter, pretty much every one of your gripes would hold merit. But instead you are trying to defend Gunships while calling Scouts/BLC/Whatever overpowered. It just makes no sense at all.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Braize

[mr_sim]

Who said they can't do anything? Situational awareness is how you beat a gunship. LOS, get out of range and then zoom in close, and pew pew. Not focusing and playing against a gunship isn't a fault of the gunship.

 

Everyone just wants to keep nerfing GSs - Ion Tap, fine because it's needed. BR cost, eh. BR cooldown, nope. Now there's talk to reduce ANOTHER component? I don't agree with this. I have fun playing against GOOD pilots because they know how to play against a GS. It seems like no one else besides these guys know what to do. Tom and Scrab still do better than I do most matches in quad scouts, and they actually have the ability to evade (from mobility, which is something I think people are forgetting here). You lock down a GS and he's done. That's it. But after all these nerfs and you still want to take a go at reducing the effectiveness more? Try playing a GS an putting up the numbers that the good GSs do - bet that unless you know what you're doing (LIKE ANY SHIP), you're screwed. The GS is more than balanced considering the meta.

 

Scouts can do insane amount of damage in a short amount of time. The time to kill is drastically less for a scout than a GS (assuming CDs). Regardless, if a BLC nerf hit, I'd be pissed but we'd still be doing what we're doing now - again, the fault is with the competition not knowing how to play.

 

Your loosing the thread a little. Point on BLC nerf is to affect Scouts, Nobody seems to be calling for GS nerfs here, I think the consensus is that we are rationalizing that GS will survive a BLC nerf.

 

Also your against the BR CD nerf? So GS should be able to forever out run any ship that attempts to get close all by itself and not rely on squadmates for protection, and when the pursuer gives up you still play your long range game?

 

Edit:

I personally could care less if Gunships were removed. They just simply ruin everything.

 

There is nothing more anti-fun than being in a decent dogfight, just to have someone get 1 shot from a sissy parked halfway across the map. It is lame.

 

People hate snipers in every single FPS out there. They are those whiny sissies who just sit out of every fight and win with one shot. Your team? Yes they hate you too because you ruin their fights and/or steal their kills every chance you get. All just to pad your own K: D ratio. Just go away, nobody likes you on EITHER team. You ruin fun.

 

Just so we're clear my opinions are my own and I'm not backing ^this^ guy and his*cough* strong opinions. GS are an important element in combating bombers and we need them in game.

Edited May 15, 2014 by mr_sim

[SammyGStatus]

Your loosing the thread a little. Point on BLC nerf is to affect Scouts, Nobody seems to be calling for GS nerfs here, I think the consensus is that we are rationalizing that GS will survive a BLC nerf.

 

Also your against the BR CD nerf? So GS should be able to forever out run any ship that attempts to get close all by itself and not rely on squadmates for protection, and when the pursuer gives up you still play your long range game?

 

I didn't agree with it - one or the other would've been okay. Both makes the survivability of a GS incredible difficult and next to impossible against a good scout. The good scouts were able to keep up with me pre 2.6. I don't see why others can't learn to fly the same way. The main point is that it's nerf after nerf after nerf, then it's QQ GSs are evil, wahhh. I'm just over it when there are people who can compete, but not if they are bad

 

And back on topic - Scouts: BLC nerfing won't reduce the T +CF combo. You're still gonna die against a good pilot. GS: As the alternative is LLCs which are a joke, keep the BLCs the way they are, and if a nerf should happen, there needs to be a buff to compensate

[General_Brass]

Scouts can do insane amount of damage in a short amount of time. The time to kill is drastically less for a scout than a GS (assuming CDs). Regardless, if a BLC nerf hit, I'd be pissed but we'd still be doing what we're doing now - again, the fault is with the competition not knowing how to play.

 

Really this this this. I can't count the number of matches where I have had veins throbbing in my forehead because I am the only person on my side bothering to fight the gunships.

[mr_sim]

I didn't agree with it - one or the other would've been okay. Both makes the survivability of a GS incredible difficult and next to impossible against a good scout. The good scouts were able to keep up with me pre 2.6. I don't see why others can't learn to fly the same way. The main point is that it's nerf after nerf after nerf, then it's QQ GSs are evil, wahhh. I'm just over it when there are people who can compete, but not if they are bad

 

And back on topic - Scouts: BLC nerfing won't reduce the T +CF combo. You're still gonna die against a good pilot. GS: As the alternative is LLCs which are a joke, keep the BLCs the way they are, and if a nerf should happen, there needs to be a buff to compensate

 

Err so you were already being chased down by scouts pre 2.6(Engine nerf was 2.7 BTW)? ok so in reality nothing has changed on the scout front, not really. I was referring to the fact that I could literally chase a GS for an entire match with range boosted protons on a Strike and never launch a missile. That is just sillyness and a perfect example why the CD needed to be extended.

 

I get it any class will and probably should be vocal against a nerf(I find it interesting that Scouts aren't fighting in this thread). However GS has 2 rail guns, a best in GSF root/slow/cc(whatever you call it), tough hide/shields, DF, and some decent minor systems. Oh also you have BiS CQ weapon. You frequently score the majority of kills vs any class(even scouts).

 

Really lets start a new QQ thread: "Gunship gets shot down = another puppy dies, it's a sad world when these things happen." Guess what! GS is a support ship, that works both ways you know, you support your team > they support you. Ground game healer is the support class you don't need to explain to them(mostly) that you need to protect the heals.

 

You saying GS needs strong close quarters weapons is like saying that: a player in heals spec needs to be able to also do the same DPS as somebody in damage spec just in case they pull aggro they need to stop healing and kick some ***. False if a healer(Gunship) gets attacked then the whole team suffers because the healer(support class) has to stop healing(GS stop sniping) and high tail it out of the hurt zone. But no you want to be able to dish it out just as good as any other class CQ, greedy much?

[General_Brass]

Err so you were already being chased down by scouts pre 2.6(Engine nerf was 2.7 BTW)? ok so in reality nothing has changed on the scout front, not really. I was referring to the fact that I could literally chase a GS for an entire match with range boosted protons on a Strike and never launch a missile

 

That really seems to be a problem with strike fighters in general. The devs seem to consistently undervalue mobility.

[mr_sim]

That really seems to be a problem with strike fighters in general. The devs seem to consistently undervalue mobility.

 

BTW that before engine nerf I could forever chase a GS. now with the nerf it's much better.

[DamascusAdontise]

I think that thematically bursts work with what scouts are. They are not a large weapon like heavy lasers that is class restricted to larger craft. I do agree though that there is a perfect storm of things coming together to make scouts do too much damage. But as stasie was saying, we need to be really careful what we do to burst.

 

Its already the weapon with the shortest range and the worst RoF in the game. And while I agree with part of what another poster said "scouts are supposed to fight close". on the its not a disadvantage part have to disagree. It is not easy to "stay" in range on a competent target. You do not need a lot of time to do big damage, but if someone is flying evasively then you don't get all of that time at once. (an exception being gunships)

 

I think Burst Laser Cannons sound a lot like what they were supposed to be. (I hate the shotgun analogy, its not a cone of fire people....) its a burst or staggered fire cannon, that fires bolts in tight groups. It is a "burst" weapon, which could be a reference to crit damage, or perhaps just that it fires in bursts (so take that as you will)

 

I like the armor pen since it allows me to take nodes, and gives me a chance to pick apart mines and drones. Some people will tell you scouts are not for node taking.... these people are wrong... Clipping the turrets as fast as possible and clearing a node fast are essential to taking the node.

 

I often jump in to clear turrets, or to occupy defense while the rest of the team comes in. How is this not a job for fast maneuverable craft? Anyways more to the point, we are not holders but we are node clearers. (long story short id like them to keep the armor pen, its an ability shared only by 2 weapons atm - technically they are the only choice for node busting on a scout)

 

I think tweaking the crit chance would be a good start, and then see from there. Like others have said its not just scouts you are hurting, wide sweeping nerfs hurt GS too (whether you want to admit it or not)

 

I have also toyed with the idea of reducing the range and graduating the DPS curve (to be more sharp). To make it a true short range weapon (1000m off the top end of the range should do it)

 

I think adjusting it the way the OP suggested would MURDER the BLC. We should not be doing 2-4 things to it all at once. Lets start with one, the one thing that makes it make people go *** (which IMO is the crit, especially when paired with TT or BO)

Edited May 15, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

[Verain]

I don't think BLCs are very overtuned, but they are overtuned. They are almost never chosen under light lasers (or rapids, which are strictly worse than light lasers), as the guns have similar roles, but other weapons such as quads actually ARE chosen over them.

 

I think that the rate of fire could be upped from 80 to 100 (laser/quad are at 150). I think you could reduce the damage some as well, but on the order of like 5% if you make the burst change.

 

 

The armor penetration thing is not really a BLC issue. I dislike all the sweeping changes proposed- some could certainly be good, and in the meta that would result from a full set of Nemarus changes it could be interesting- but it would take SEVERAL components being redesigned to make that happen.

 

 

 

If BLCs are nerfed- especially as onerously and ludicrously as Nemarus suggests in this thread- they will simply go from generally best short range weapon to worst at everything. Since this forum is FILLED with terrible sports- witness the army of fools crying that there should never possibly be any returning of requisition when a mine flips from being "best at actually killing people" to "utility snare", along with pages of self-righteous nonsense- you can rest assured that the deletion of burst laser cannon would be hailed from all directions, from those who hate battle scouts to those who hate gunships.

 

 

 

 

I think that removing this cannon doesn't really solve the issues. It's too strong, mostly because it can critface for a lot, ignore armor, do extra hull damage, all while having a ton of upfront damage because of the slow rate of fire- but if you took away too many of those, then it is weak.

 

Is this cannon an issue on the type 1 gunship? Not really. It's an issue on the type 2 scout, but quads and pods is also amazing on that ship.

 

 

 

I think making it shoot just a TAD faster would be all you would need.

[Socrotes]

While I agree that BLCs are over-performing, I don't actually think that the answer lies in nerfing the weapon itself. Instead, I would argue for buffing components that are designed to punish close-quarters-combat (CQC).

 

I think the developers intended for BLCs to be a high-risk, high-reward type weapon, yet I think the risks inherent in using BLCs are actually pretty minimal. The high-risk element is that you are only truly effective at very close ranges, requiring that you expose yourself to greater enemy firepower and more close-range debuffs. Yet in practice, only one ship has components that effectively punish someone for getting into melee range: the minelayer (rampart/razorwire). This essentially makes the internal calculus of the BLC pilot very simplistic:

Is the opponent a minelayer? If yes, stay away; if no, get close and pew-pew.

 

A change that I think could be very interesting would be buffing Interdiction Drive. As it stands, I've played about 2500 GSF matches across several servers, and I think I've seen this component used all of 4 times. On the surface this seems like a great counter to BLC scouts: scout gets too close, and he gets punished by a pretty crippling debuff that leaves him very vulnerable. However, the ridiculously long cooldown, combined with an exorbitant engine-power cost makes this component a real letdown. I would propose reducing the power cost by 50%, and making the CD 30 seconds (perhaps this would be overpowered; testing would be required to arrive at fair numbers, but I think it's safe to say that ID, in its current state, is woefully underpowered).

 

If ID were made more competitive, I would definitely start running it on some of my ships. Currently, ID can be taken on both bombers, both gunships, Type 3 scouts and Type 3 strikes (that's 60% of all ships for those keeping track). I can imagine some interesting builds with a buffed ID on each of those ships. Ideally, interdiction drive would present the pilot with an non-trivial tradeoff: increased short-range defense at the cost of increased vulnerability to heavy missiles (on strikes, scouts and GSs) and either decreased longevity or utility on the bombers. With the numbers of people running BLCs, this is a tradeoff that I would be willing to make, and I think it would increase build diversity in GSF in general.

 

In any case, I would enjoy hearing any feedback the rest of you might have.

 

Molva- POT5, Harbinger

Molvah- TEH

[Pilgrim_Grey]

If BLCs are nerfed- especially as onerously and ludicrously as Nemarus suggests in this thread- they will simply go from generally best short range weapon to worst at everything. Since this forum is FILLED with terrible sports- witness the army of fools crying that there should never possibly be any returning of requisition when a mine flips from being "best at actually killing people" to "utility snare", along with pages of self-righteous nonsense- you can rest assured that the deletion of burst laser cannon would be hailed from all directions, from those who hate battle scouts to those who hate gunships.

 

Not that this is anything particularly new, but... comparing two dissimilar things really doesn't work (false analogy and all that). Just because people don't agree with you doesn't make them bad sports, and BLCs and refunding requisition for a power adjustment (in an MMO!) are not similar things either.

 

I disagree on the requisition but agree BLCs just need a mild adjustment, since their being so good on Tier 2's has a lot to do with the other abilities tier 2's have. With your statement above, there is no way that should possibly, ever happen.