BioWare are you trying to get your operations players to leave?

[Superman_AZ]

I understand the point you're trying to make.

 

But surely you recognize there's a distinction between "I cleared the new operation in 8 hours", and "we've been doing the same operation for 12 months"

 

Of course, I never doubted that distinction. I was simply showing that sometimes MMOs make players wait a year before unleashing the next big bad. In WoW, you pay $60 for a new expansion, plus the $15 a month for the sub. This gets you 4 major patches in a 24 month window with new content/raids/etc. In SWTOR, you simply pay a sub, and get free content as it is delivered.

 

Do I agree that raiders should get new content quicker than 12 months? Sure. Do I think it BW should release it at their leisure since we are not being charged anything more than a sub? Sure. Don't let my opinion on the matter stop you from asking for it, but don't get those hopes up too high

[tanerb]

What they find out is Operations people are a small portion of player base. So they are now dumbing down the content for the others. They first gave tactical flashpoints, next bolstered ops is coming. Third step would be removing all complex mechanics from ops, giving bosses wet noodles. I bet that next op would be a tactical op, with no trinity needed. But if you get 5000 rep certificates from the last boss, you can get a rancor pet.

[tanerb]

Superman_az, you may have had a point if we were getting new Ops every 6 months, but its going to be over a year between them.

 

He was away for some time , he just came back so he has some catch up to do and he is assuming everybody is like him.

[PlasmaJohn]

Yeah my guild is definitely about to at least partially move on soon. We are doing NiM right now, but we've just become very tired of doing the same operations for so long. We may all be back when new ones come out, but for now we are fairly burnt out on the content.

Funny, sounds like my guild's story (except we're slogging through HM)

 

There's more than that though, the thousand paper cuts of bugs that took too long to be fixed, having to jump to get out of damage and other little buggy mechanics are wearing some people down.

This! So much this... Last night's fun from DP HM, Calphayus. Had to reset the instance because we were getting double adds on the first phase. Had similar issues in other fights. We've stopped expecting any sort of serious answer from bug reports, when we bother we only do it for the comedy value we expect from the response.

[Icebergy]

He was away for some time , he just came back so he has some catch up to do and he is assuming everybody is like him.

 

Good point. I suppose if I was away from the game for a year and just came back I would be OK with still running DF/DP too.

[Superman_AZ]

He was away for some time , he just came back so he has some catch up to do and he is assuming everybody is like him.

 

Actually, had you read my prior statements, you might have seen I addressed the fact that when I do raid, it takes awhile. I don't believe in plowing through content. You are absolutely welcome to join the conversation, as long as you actually read it first. We don't need blind assumptions, leading to misunderstandings, and ultimately starting a fight. We've been calmly chatting thus far, and I like it that way

[Superman_AZ]

Good point. I suppose if I was away from the game for a year and just came back I would be OK with still running DF/DP too.

 

And might be applicable if I had a character high enough level to raid. I'm not "stalling" so I can catch up to everyone. I promise, by the time 2.9 hits, I will have little to no OPs completed, and just be enjoying the other aspects of the game.

[SteelTriton]

The raiders have a point. This game should be averaging 3 OPs a year. Bioware if it is taking you 6-8 months to build nightmare modes for 2 operations than it is time to abandon them. Raiders would be happy getting a new raid every 4 months with story and hard modes. The reason most people are upset is because of the spacing of all the content launched in 2013. Then we come to 2014 and basically we are told you wont be seeing much new content until basically 2015. There is only so many achievements and alts before everyone gets burned out before new content comes.

[Superman_AZ]

The raiders have a point. This game should be averaging 3 OPs a year. Bioware if it is taking you 6-8 months to build nightmare modes for 2 operations than it is time to abandon them. Raiders would be happy getting a new raid every 4 months with story and hard modes.

 

True. It should be easier to make 3 hardmodes than 2 nightmares.

[Tsillah]

The last operations were released on October 1, 2013, the next one will be October 21, 2014 at the earliest, since there's no indication of a new operation in 2.9 on August 19; that's at least a year between new operations. Nightmare Modes of existing operations do not constitute new operations, despite how much you may want us to believe that.

 

Additionally, it will be at least 18 months between the raises of the level cap. We had 16 months for 1-50 content with 8 class stories and 4 operations. It will be at least 18 months, and possibly more for 51-55 with no class stories and only 3 operations.

 

If your goal is get players who love operations to leave and try out other games then you're succeeding. Please throw us a bone and tell us when anything of substance will be added to the game beyond gambling and housing mini-games.

 

Your biggest mistake is that you equate operations players with hardcore progression players.

 

What I mean with that is that you represent a smaller group of people than you may think. The reason I think that is this: There isn't just one group of players who play operations. You are seemingly part of the group that is more hardcore and is focused on progression.

 

Personally I play a lot of operations every week and well I have 14 level 55s that are all decently geared, meaning that I understand the need for set bonuses, augmention and have a general clue about mechanics for all sm ops and most of the HM level stuff.

 

However, I am in a small guild because my experiences with bigger guilds have been poor. The more progression minded guilds tend to have strict rules, people who only care about what they get out of it, backstabbing politics, fighting officers, secret meetings discussing individuals and every other unfortunate thing that you might find in guilds. Perhaps it was just bad luck but I just haven't found a guild yet were these things were absent enough to be small issues.

 

So this leaves me to pugging, but interestingly enough there are lots of pug groups doing 16 man sm ops. And even more interestingly is that there are usually players in there from bigger guilds that raid as well. So apparently they couldn't get a raid group together and I have some ideas why that would be.

 

So really, my guess is that there is a huge part of raiding going on via pugs, maybe even more than directly in guilds, but I can't judge that without numbers.

 

But these pugs are a bit of a pain to get together, so I am grateful for 2.8 putting 16 man groups into the gf. People may complain about bolster (and it's not my favourite idea) but most sm ops are easy and at least it will make sure that people can do their part. Let's be honest, for sm doing the basic tactics right is more important than being geared, especially since at least half such raids are overgeared people anyways who just want to get their comms.

 

I look at the results first. The result is that there is a focus on sm ops. There must be a reason for that. My guess is that the amount of sm ops that are being played vastly outnumber the HM and NiM ones. If HM ops were hugely played, there would automatically be a reason for BW to do something for HM. It's simple, they use metrics and decide their priorities on what is played most and gets comments.

 

I wanted player housing also because progression is nice but not the is all and end all of my gaming interest. I like variation. This is something new to spend time on. Make no mistake, it's a video game so if you consider this a waste of time, you might as well call gaming a waste of time entirely. Surely, having 186 rating gear isn't going to impress many people especially outside the game.

 

So yeh they are slow in releasing new ops. That will also have to do with their metrics. Lots of people haven't even finished DF and DP on sm believe it or not.

 

And another thing. The more hardcore players tend to be elitist as it is. If I ever wanted to do HM ops I either have to join a guild and endure guild politics or try the pugs that are there, but then they always ask to show achievements. What I really want to know is where are the guilds who do HM ops and are actually helpful to each other....and I don't mean those guilds who say they have a guild full of people at the ready to help each other out, no, I mean the guilds that actually DO that.

 

Why do I bring that up? Because aside from being a relatively small group, your type of gamer tends to make sure that group doesn't get any bigger. So really, investing in such a player is really a waste of resources. I am pretty sure that if a lot more people were able to get to HM level than there are now, it would be a higher priority for BW and as we can see, atm it's not a high priority. And this means then that, as much as it would be nice to have new ops, there just isn't enough HM/NiM acitivity going to warrant a higher priority on the to do list for BW.

[tanerb]

What you are not taking into account is a lot of guilded raiders also do pug ops. So I would do HM ops with my guild and then join a pug SM ops for the weekly because there would not be enough people in my guild at that time. So I am in the same camp with Darth Texas but you think I am not because you see me in pug ops.

[fightermax]

it's awesome if you can solve a rubik's cube in 42 seconds...

 

35 .

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Why are SM Ops popular? Because they are fun! When you get into HM/NiM 55 Ops you get into some crazy politics and the fun tends to go away, unless you are one of the lucky few who find a guild that can run these without all the bs that comes with elitists. I guess as long as they don't touch my gear I'm ok with the bolster cause if it means I can pug more Ops then that's ok, doesn't change the fact that we still need fresh HM FP's and new Ops. Aren't Ops a main piller in MMO's? You complete your storyline and continue your adventure by grouping up and taking on fun content together?

[NoFishing]

I'm certain they are not trying to drive anyone away, but by the same token, if they constantly have to cave to raiders and give them something new every few months to keep them happy, the bigger patches with the more important items will continue to take a backseat. Personally, I like that they are puting some things in with 2.8 and making 2.9 a very big deal by end of summer. I would rather sit tight and wait for great content, than be handed not-so-great content every few months just because I feel the urge to race to the finish.

 

A fine sentiment and one I would share. But those of us that have been here since launch know that during 2012 and 2013 Bioware was capable of doing lots of stuff while simultaneously putting out a new raid every 6 to 8 months.

 

The only major flaw I ever saw with raiding, was the lightspeed progression just to beat another guild to the finish line. It's awesome if you can solve a Rubik's cube in 42 seconds, but I would rather enjoy mine and take a week or two to figure it out.

 

That is a tiny, tiny portion of the raiding population in SWTOR. The vast majority of us raid (or in my case raided) on a fixed schedule between 8-12 hours a week tops, even during new content releases. If it takes us two months to clear it, so be it, as long as it gets cleared and we can get geared before the next tier of operations comes out.

[TUXs]

The last operations were released on October 1, 2013, the next one will be October 21, 2014 at the earliest, since there's no indication of a new operation in 2.9 on August 19; that's at least a year between new operations. Nightmare Modes of existing operations do not constitute new operations, despite how much you may want us to believe that.

 

Additionally, it will be at least 18 months between the raises of the level cap. We had 16 months for 1-50 content with 8 class stories and 4 operations. It will be at least 18 months, and possibly more for 51-55 with no class stories and only 3 operations.

 

If your goal is get players who love operations to leave and try out other games then you're succeeding. Please throw us a bone and tell us when anything of substance will be added to the game beyond gambling and housing mini-games.

Yup! Agreed 100%. This isn't unique to Ops either though...Story people feel the same way, as do PvPers, as do Crafters...

[NoFishing]

Do you not enjoy raiding? You continue to classify those of us that do as locusts burning through content. Many of us enjoy doing several things in this game but you gotta keep the content you group up for fresh. I enjoy running old Ops and run them every week, I don't just clear something and then I'm done with it.

 

Same. Heck, I used to run TfB and S&V SM and HM 3 or even 4 times per week for most of 2013. Counting when it was a level 50 op, I've probably run TfB in various modes close to 300 times.

[NoFishing]

I bet that next op would be a tactical op.

 

With bolster rearing it's ugly head for GF operations, I'm not betting against you.

[NoFishing]

So this leaves me to pugging, but interestingly enough there are lots of pug groups doing 16 man sm ops. And even more interestingly is that there are usually players in there from bigger guilds that raid as well. So apparently they couldn't get a raid group together and I have some ideas why that would be.

 

The reason this happens is because raiders enjoy raiding. Like you, they have lots of alts, and don't mind running SM operations on them, even if there is no gear that is going to benefit them. It has nothing to do with not being able to get a guild raid together.

 

And I'd argue that it is those more experienced players that raid on HM that tend to organize and lead operations in SM, and those players that help ensure those SM ops run smoothly and are cleared. I'd bet that a full 16-man of players that have never done HM are going to struggle immensely even in the so-called easy mode. Even with bolster.

 

I look at the results first. The result is that there is a focus on sm ops. There must be a reason for that. My guess is that the amount of sm ops that are being played vastly outnumber the HM and NiM ones.

 

Without any doubt, this is absolutely correct. But this is also where the issue comes in even more significantly, because no new SM ops for 14 months should also be unacceptable. TfB will be close to 2.5 years old by the time new operations come out. S&V well over a year and half. DF+DP well over a year old. They need to do better than this.

[Drockter]

I love Ops... love them... and try to do them weekly... so would I balk at more... absolutely not.

 

However, the game can not cater to any particular "type" of player... because it would alienate the other. If the recent forum poll (well recent as of 6 months ago) were to be believed... then who they should be catering to are Class Story players (#1 voted choice with a bullet (according to the graph today, Operations was like #8 i think)).

 

But, in the end, it comes down to revenue... and cost. Operations, while beautifully done, are no doubt expensive to produce. What is missing from the equation is revenue. How are they going to capitalize on the content, make back what they spent. I'm not slamming anyone, this isn't a dig, its reality.

 

Honestly, and I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings here... it is more about attracting new players to the game... and although retention is a factor... not as much of one as attracting new. New players come in and either a) sub, and/or b) buy stuff... to them the content is all new, more revenue ... less development cost. At some point, all games have a "cut-off" point.

[Prototypemind]

I love Ops... love them... and try to do them weekly... so would I balk at more... absolutely not.

 

However, the game can not cater to any particular "type" of player... because it would alienate the other. If the recent forum poll (well recent as of 6 months ago) were to be believed... then who they should be catering to are Class Story players (#1 voted choice with a bullet (according to the graph today, Operations was like #8 i think)).

 

But, in the end, it comes down to revenue... and cost. Operations, while beautifully done, are no doubt expensive to produce. What is missing from the equation is revenue. How are they going to capitalize on the content, make back what they spent. I'm not slamming anyone, this isn't a dig, its reality.

 

Honestly, and I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings here... it is more about attracting new players to the game... and although retention is a factor... not as much of one as attracting new. New players come in and either a) sub, and/or b) buy stuff... to them the content is all new, more revenue ... less development cost. At some point, all games have a "cut-off" point.

 

Catering to a diverse audience is fine, but how many major MMOs survive with a greater than annual release schedule for End Game content? As mentioned, Ops are not the only place this game is suffering. ONE new PvP map, GSF's ship updates pushed back, housing pushed back, garbage tactical operations that could be cleared blindfolded, no HM versions of the new tacticals, repetitive boss fights that are less entertaining and more time consuming than Ops fights, paltry writing when it comes to what we're given with them.

 

Content is lacking everywhere in the game right now, all the more so for players who have been here since the start. There may be interesting things on the horizon, but players aren't going to hold out forever to see them.

[NoFishing]

However, the game can not cater to any particular "type" of player... because it would alienate the other. If the recent forum poll (well recent as of 6 months ago) were to be believed... then who they should be catering to are Class Story players (#1 voted choice with a bullet (according to the graph today, Operations was like #8 i think)).

 

Timing is everything. That poll would have been soon after DF and DP were released, Bioware had a history of releasing ops every 6-8 months, and nobody knew it was going to be 14 months to the next one.

 

But, in the end, it comes down to revenue... and cost. Operations, while beautifully done, are no doubt expensive to produce. What is missing from the equation is revenue. How are they going to capitalize on the content, make back what they spent. I'm not slamming anyone, this isn't a dig, its reality.

 

No doubt, but when a portion of your subscribers/players spend a substantial amount of time running operations, and you stop producing operations for a long time, you HAVE to know that a significant number of that portion are going to reduce the amount of money they spend in your game, by cancelling their sub, etc.

 

If you can afford to lose them, so be it. They will move on and hopefully you can attract different players to replace them and their money. But it feels like a very risky gamble to me.

Edited May 8, 2014 by NoFishing

[offfspringfntc]

Agreed, the New "Alliances" tactical FP's was supposed to be kicking off another story arc for operations as well, but 2.8 has NOTHING furthering this stuff along, so your talking at least 11 months (September 2013 was DF/DP) since the last operation(s) came about if we even get 1 in August, meaning end game operations have gone wholly ignored for over a calendar year.

 

ugh. but hey at least we got sandbox gambling this summer for shinny's /facepalm

[tanerb]

 

Honestly, and I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings here... it is more about attracting new players to the game... and although retention is a factor... not as much of one as attracting new. New players come in and either a) sub, and/or b) buy stuff... to them the content is all new, more revenue ... less development cost. At some point, all games have a "cut-off" point.

 

No it is not because there is not a steady inflow of new players into this game. No MMOs suddenly attract new players after 2-3 years. Their goal is to keep existing players as much as they can. Esp the ones who keep spending on the CM. you are right on ops. they cost a lot of money, it is much easier to reskin a 2 year old armor and sell it for 20 bucks. If they had a a lot of new players coming they would be doing new ops, that would be investment. They are divesting now

[onemoreround]

Never felt the need to complain before nor post on here but the lack of ops being released will kill this game for me & for my guild. I've been a subscriber since launch & have very much enjoyed playing over the years but there simply is nothing to do for those that have levelled multiple alts & geared them up through running the current ops over the many months they've been out. These days I only log in to run ops & the social side that brings with my guild mates as there's been no story content other than crap tactical fps recently. It's a shame & I can only hope Bioware will realise how essential it is to release regular ops, sadly it doesn't appear to be happening so I guess its time to finally move on.

[TrillOG-]

Yup. They are doing a really good job at it too. The NiM ops last a couple weeks for the top guilds and then theres nothing else to do but farm. I don't see us getting any new op content for another 7-8 months and that means no new NiM content for that long which is pathetic.

 

They are trying to drive out the endgame playerbase so they can scrap operations all together and only have to worry about the things they can advertise the CM with. The sad thing is I really enjoy this game and hate the way Wildstar looks but there's no way me or anyone I know is going to stick around another content cycle. Wildstar will have what we have been asking for and won't be trying to reem its customers at every turn through some cash shop. But at the end of the day EAware doesn't care because they will continue to cash in. This game isn't going to last and they know it.

Edited May 8, 2014 by TrillOG-