[2.8]No sniper surviablity changes or engi buff, yet sorcs & sins are buffed.

[Smuglebunny]

i think its funny that the people who want a buff keep trying to make fun of the ones that say we dont need it by calling them bads. But then If bads think it doesnt need a buff and you do, who's bad? Smooth criminal.

 

lol couldnt help it.

[Venjirai]

Stopped reading there.

 

Yes. He also created a scenario which can be easily handled with the toolbox of the commando.

He calls other baddies while not even knowing all the skills of his own class.

 

The problem of the sniper in solo rated lies in the strength of defensive cooldowns in an all dps matchup.

Defensive cooldowns like Reactive Shield, Hold the line, Saber Ward, Adrenalin Rush, Barrier, Deflection are all long enough in that matchup that they reduce the amount of damage taken drastically.

Focus changes rarely happen so if someone pops defensive cooldowns, most of the people will keep damaging that target. Even if focus change does occur, they will have wasted their initial burst.

The operative does not really have such a defensive cooldown but they got stealth, so they are surely not the first target to be focused and even if, they have the ability to force a target change.

 

The Sniper has none of these, not a defensive ability that really matters and no ability to force a target change.

All this class got is damage and utility, but those are easily countered by being focused, which in turn gets countered by having a tank and healer.

All in all I would say that the problem not really lies in the class, but in the principle of all dps matchups.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Venjirai

[Dayshadow]

Yes. He also created a scenario which can be easily handled with the toolbox of the commando. He calls other baddies while not even knowing all the skills of his own class.

 

As bad as I might be that doesn't stop me from recognizing other bad players. Or at the least, severely under geared players (which is really the same thing in this game). Any sniper getting owned by a gunnery commando is bad. I've beaten bad snipers and in each case they simply did not use their CC/defensive abilities or know when to move and reposition.

 

The problem of the sniper in solo rated lies in the strength of defensive cooldowns in an all dps matchup. Defensive cooldowns like Reactive Shield, Hold the line, Saber Ward, Adrenalin Rush, Barrier, Deflection are all long enough in that matchup that they reduce the amount of damage taken drastically.

Focus changes rarely happen so if someone pops defensive cooldowns, most of the people will keep damaging that target. Even if focus change does occur, they will have wasted their initial burst.

The operative does not really have such a defensive cooldown but they got stealth, so they are surely not the first target to be focused and even if, they have the ability to force a target change.

 

The Sniper has none of these, not a defensive ability that really matters and no ability to force a target change.

All this class got is damage and utility, but those are easily countered by being focused, which in turn gets countered by having a tank and healer.

All in all I would say that the problem not really lies in the class, but in the principle of all dps matchups.

 

This is basically what you said in my first reply.

 

They get focused first because they are overpowered. Ergo, they should get no buff to compensate for player reaction to their being overpowered. Sorcs get the same treatment.

[Dayshadow]

Stopped reading there.

 

So what other sniper attacks have cast timers?

 

And I like how people simply dismiss comments, but don't correct anything I say. Now you either can do that or you're just full of ****.

[Venjirai]

They get focused first because they are overpowered. Ergo, they should get no buff to compensate for player reaction to their being overpowered. Sorcs get the same treatment.

 

No, they don't get focused because they are overpowered, they get focused because they are the only class that reliable dies under focus fire.

 

So what other sniper attacks have cast timers?

 

You could have done that research yourself...

Ambush, Snipe, Cull, Series of Shots and those are the main abilities of the class.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Venjirai

[Stringray]

I don't have any complaints about my sniper or my ops. If i die on my sniper it is because someone got the jump on me and deserved to win or my cool downs were all on cool down and theirs were not. If I die on my ops at all it is my fault.

 

Why does everyone want easy mode? Snipers are bad ***.

 

With regards to pot5 being better pvp that is a giant myth, that servers pvp is a *********** joke and the so called top guys there are big fish in a kiddie pool.

 

I don't play bastion so i can't comment, but pvp on shadowlands you run into way better players overall and it ain't even close.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Stringray

[Dayshadow]

No, they don't get focused because they are overpowered, they get focused because they are the only class that reliable dies under focus fire.

 

They get focuses because everyone sees them as the greatest threat. In any arena the snipers are first priority, only second to healers and not because they die easily. They don't. They should, but they don't. They don't go down any faster, focused or otherwise than any other non-tank class. Sorcs go down fast. Commandos go down fast. Marauders can go down fast. Snipers do not. And that is the problem. They need less durability or less DPS. One or the other. But something has to give.

 

You could have done that research yourself...

Ambush, Snipe, Cull, Series of Shots and those are the main abilities of the class.

 

I did do the research and the results were different than what you are claiming. Are both Torhead and SWTOR-Spy wrong? When I look up the abilities they all say instant except for Ambush. Snipe was not included b/c it's a non-AC specific ability.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Dayshadow

[Darkshadz]

I did do the research and the results were different than what you are claiming. Are both Torhead and SWTOR-Spy wrong? When I look up the abilities they all say instant except for Ambush. Snipe was not included b/c it's a non-AC specific ability.

 

I thought you had a sniper because these abilities do have a cast time. You should've known that. I don't know why Torhead and SWTOR-spy say that these abilites are instant because this is simply not true.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Darkshadz

[Nairolfus]

Is anybody seriously thinking snipers need a buff? What. the. hell.

[Venjirai]

Marauders can go down fast. Snipers do not. And that is the problem. They need less durability or less DPS. One or the other.

 

Yeah, useless discussing with you if you think that marauders can die faster than snipers.

 

Guys, it's not the sniper that needs changing, it's the system.

All dps arenas are the problem.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Venjirai

[Dayshadow]

I thought you had a sniper because these abilities do have a cast time. You should've known that.

 

What are the cast times then?

 

Cull, Series of Shots, Suppressive Fire are all channeled like Full Auto. They activate instantly. They don't apply their full damage instantly, but they activate and do damage instantly. Only Ambush as an actual cast timer. And Snipe if you want to count that as "sniper".

 

In terms of comparability...

Series of Shots (top sniper DPS?) does more DPS than Full Auto (top commando DPS). Both are 3 sec channels.

Snipe does more DPS than Charged Bolt (or Grav Round). Both 1.5 sec timer.

Ambush does more DPS than Full Auto too, in less time. 2.5 cast and 3 sec channel. Ambush also has a habit of ignoring obstacles and hitting its mark regardless. Although these aren't directly comparable.

 

DPS on paper doesn't factor in the heightened crit rate of the agent vs. trooper. I'm pretty sure damn near all sniper attacks are more powerful than the top troop ability in practice. Yet Commando is no more durable. My Scoundrel has about the same durability as my commando.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Dayshadow

[Dayshadow]

Yeah, useless discussing with you if you think that marauders can die faster than snipers.

 

Guys, it's not the sniper that needs changing, it's the system.

All dps arenas are the problem.

 

The only reason the discussion would be useless is your acknowledgement that I am absolutely right. Otherwise, your just blowing hot air because you can't objectively prove otherwise. We are both carrying opinions based on our own perceptions of experience.

 

Marauders vary. Hence, I said "they can" as opposed to they simply do. The thing about Marauders is they either kill you in 3 moves or they don't and you actually engage them. In those engagements they last the same as snipers in my experience. Although, I actually stand a chance if engaged with a marauder. Snipers kill you so fast it's hard to really say. Never lasted long enough to say how long they would have lasted. But their health bar doesn't seem to be budging any quicker than Marauders. Could be server lag?

[Venjirai]

What are the cast times then?

 

In terms of comparability...

Series of Shots (top sniper DPS?) does more DPS than Full Auto (top commando DPS). Both are 3 sec channels.

 

About the same damage.

 

Snipe does more DPS than Charged Bolt (or Grav Round). Both 1.5 sec timer.

 

Nope, Grav Round does more.

 

Ambush does more DPS than Full Auto too, in less time. 2.5 cast and 3 sec channel.

 

Nope, Ambush crits for about average 7k. And why aren't you comparing it with Demolition Round? Right.. because that can crit for 10k and would look bad for your comparison.

 

DPS on paper doesn't factor in the heightened crit rate of the agent vs. trooper. I'm pretty sure damn near all sniper attacks are more powerful than the top troop ability in practice. Yet Commando is no more durable. My Scoundrel has about the same durability as my commando.

 

Yes, if you don't use half of your abilities, sniper might be more durable. but no other class can kite multiple enemies as well as a commando, that's a fact.

 

 

5chars

[Venjirai]

The only reason the discussion would be useless is your acknowledgement that I am absolutely right. Otherwise, your just blowing hot air because you can't objectively prove otherwise. We are both carrying opinions based on our own perceptions of experience.

 

Marauders vary. Hence, I said "they can" as opposed to they simply do. The thing about Marauders is they either kill you in 3 moves or they don't and you actually engage them. In those engagements they last the same as snipers in my experience. Although, I actually stand a chance if engaged with a marauder. Snipers kill you so fast it's hard to really say. Never lasted long enough to say how long they would have lasted. But their health bar doesn't seem to be budging any quicker than Marauders. Could be server lag?

 

Are you for real?

Marauders pop Cloak of Pain, Saber Ward and Warzone Adrenal and tank the whole enemy team for 10 seconds.

When you are low you force camo and you are save for another 4 seconds... then you pop guarded by the force and are immune for another 4 seconds.

Marauders don't kill you in 3 hits... they outlast you.. they kill you in 3 hits if you are bad, which I believe is the case here, based on your statements.

[Darkshadz]

What are the cast times then?

 

Cull, Series of Shots, Suppressive Fire are all channeled like Full Auto. They activate instantly. They don't apply their full damage instantly, but they activate and do damage instantly. Only Ambush as an actual cast timer. And Snipe if you want to count that as "sniper".

 

Don't forget that you said that snipers only had 1 casted abilities. Channeled abilities are not instant abilities. You even described how channeled abilities work. Any ability that doesn't apply it's full damage instantly is not an instant ability. That's why we include channeled abilities in the casted abilities. Besides, you have to stand still to use channeled abilites.

[Venjirai]

Don't forget that you said that snipers only had 1 casted abilities. Channeled abilities are not instant abilities. You even described how channeled abilities work. Any ability that doesn't apply it's full damage instantly is not an instant ability. That's why we include channeled abilities in the casted abilities. Besides, you have to stand still to use channeled abilites.

 

He won't admit that he is wrong, because he is clearly butthurt.

He gets his *** kicked by them because he is one of them commandos who just stand still and try to outdamage them.

[Arctyc]

Just add flavour to this lovely thread.

 

Orbit Strike damage reduction. Why fear such a weak AOE?

 

Flashbang single target. Cannot save you from 4 people close in anymore.

 

These 2 changes in 4v4 make the sniper easier pickings than most other classes.

 

Sniper is more reliant on support and then does ok+ damage.

 

Rgds

 

Arc

[Dayshadow]

5chars

 

Demolition round is a top tier ability for a specific tree, but if we are talking just gunnery OK. Grav round was included because it's not too far up. And grav does less damage. Regardless, Ambush does more dmg than Demo. Demo CAN outdamage Ambush with stacked vortexes, but you'd already be dead by the time you were ready to use it at max potential. Unless the sniper forgoes all CC and let's you win.

 

Are you trying to say that Commandos can put more hurt on a target than Snipers?

Edited May 10, 2014 by Dayshadow

[Dayshadow]

Are you for real?

Marauders pop Cloak of Pain, Saber Ward and Warzone Adrenal and tank the whole enemy team for 10 seconds.

When you are low you force camo and you are save for another 4 seconds... then you pop guarded by the force and are immune for another 4 seconds.

Marauders don't kill you in 3 hits... they outlast you.. they kill you in 3 hits if you are bad, which I believe is the case here, based on your statements.

 

I mentioned a few post back that I mean w/o CD/defensives. May have been another thread when I compared sniper durability in cover to DPS jug w/o CDs.

 

And yes they can kill you VERY quickly. I asked someone in a WZ why some Marauders seemed so weak and others unstoppable. The answer I got was carnage + gore. Not sure if that's it. I've fought 2 marauders completely solo who didn't wipe the floor with me in mere seconds. I beat both. They did not outlast me. They cloaked and then came back, but they still ate dirt.

[Dayshadow]

Don't forget that you said that snipers only had 1 casted abilities. Channeled abilities are not instant abilities. You even described how channeled abilities work. Any ability that doesn't apply it's full damage instantly is not an instant ability. That's why we include channeled abilities in the casted abilities. Besides, you have to stand still to use channeled abilites.

 

SNIPER only has 1. The other is not a "sniper" ability. It's an imperial agent ability. But you can have it.

 

Channeled are instant. They are listed as instant. They instantly do damage. Just not full damage. However, the sniper isn't going to be interrupted or suffer any pushback. And sniper abilities do more damage than commando counterparts plus they have higher crit rate. Yes, a sniper has to be IN COVER. As if that's somehow a weakness. DEF bonus, certain CC immunities and most importantly he can't be leaped. When a sniper knocks back a melee they stay back and they are slowed. They can't be knocked around. If trading blows the commando suffers pushback. The fact remains that a sniper can melt your face in a few moments. Commandos cannot. The damage disparity is EXTREMELY obvious.

 

I don't have a problem with any of this. I have a problem with the Commando not being adequately compensated in durability. Or snipers need to lose some of theirs. To balance things.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Dayshadow

[Dayshadow]

He won't admit that he is wrong, because he is clearly butthurt.

He gets his *** kicked by them because he is one of them commandos who just stand still and try to outdamage them.

 

Personal attacks now? Clearly, you're the one who is butthurt.

 

If you had any actual valid counter argument you wouldn't need to sink to petty remarks.

 

For the record I never try to solo a sniper. And unless you play in some kind of vacuum you aren't in solo scenarios where you can play cat and mouse for 3 minutes while everyone else gives you personal space. DOT sorcs can play cat and mouse. Assault can play cat and mouse in the right circumstances. If you think a gunnery commando can run around, apply meaningful damage and avoid it you are playing a different game. It isn't mechanically possible outside of facing a very ****** sniper. A sniper can have you down to 50% in the timespan of a single root or snare.

[Venjirai]

Demolition round is a top tier ability for a specific tree, but if we are talking just gunnery OK. Grav round was included because it's not too far up. And grav does less damage. Regardless, Ambush does more dmg than Demo. Demo CAN outdamage Ambush with stacked vortexes, but you'd already be dead by the time you were ready to use it at max potential. Unless the sniper forgoes all CC and let's you win.

 

How can I discuss with you about snipers if you don't even know your own class?

First, Grav Round does indeed more damage and is even tech damage and not white damage like Snipe which gets easily blocked by many defensive cooldowns / defense.

 

Ambush does not do more damage than Demolition Round.

Ambush is casted and only really gets used by the Marksmanship spec, while Demolition Round is instant and does more damage. And no, you don't have to stack vortexes, you just use Grav Round one time and your Demolition Round gets the max damage, you may be talking about High Impact Bolt, which is another instant ability which hits for more than Snipe. I have played many games with a friend playing commando and while my max hit was often about 7-8k, he hit 10k easily in every game.

 

Are you trying to say that Commandos can put more hurt on a target than Snipers?

 

Both Commando specs do more damage than Marskmanship (The spec with the scary Ambush you know).

Only Lethality will put out more damage and that's because it is a Dot spec.

 

I mentioned a few post back that I mean w/o CD/defensives. May have been another thread when I compared sniper durability in cover to DPS jug w/o CDs.

 

And what's the point of that? Next we will be comparing classes without defensive cooldowns and with some major damage abilities on cooldown...

 

The answer I got was carnage + gore.

If you fight a Marauder you always have to check his stance first... if he is in Ataru Form, that's the spec which can burst you down in seconds but if you deny their burst by a simple stun or knockback, they are easy prey.

 

If you had any actual valid counter argument you wouldn't need to sink to petty remarks.

 

I am throwing valid counter arguments at you but it's pretty pointless if you just deny them like a stubborn donkey.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Venjirai

[Smuglebunny]

There is really no point to any of this arguing. If BW thinks they need a buff they will get it based on their internal metrics and nothing we say is gonna change that.

 

I just felt that snipers/GS were ok for now. Player skill makes a huge difference in the perception of how good a class is and some of us are good at sniper and some of us have been on the receiving end of their damage by differently skilled players giving us each a perspective on how snipers are.

 

My experience has been mostly wins cuz either Im good or the people I played were not. This makes me perceive sniper as strong.

Another player may have tried out sniper and been faced with highly skilled opponents that murdered them giving them the perception that snipers suck.

 

The reality is in numbers that only BW has. Not that I trust them but they will decide. Not us.

 

Plus BW has to figure out how to make them viable in ranked but not super gods in regs at the same time. That was probably the issue in why they didnt put out that immunity DCD they were supposed to get in 2.6 or 2.7

[Groncho]

If you think a gunnery commando can run around, apply meaningful damage and avoid it you are playing a different game. It isn't mechanically possible outside of facing a very ****** sniper. A sniper can have you down to 50% in the timespan of a single root or snare.

 

A mando merc...can easily destroy a sniper also....skill just happens

[Darkshadz]

SNIPER only has 1. The other is not a "sniper" ability. It's an imperial agent ability. But you can have it.

 

Channeled are instant. They are listed as instant.

 

There is no point discussing class balance with you if you don't even understand that channeled abilites are not instant. The first tick is applied instantly indeed but the rest of the damage is done over time. CC the sniper (or LOS him/her) before it ends and most of the damage is lost. BTW commandos are good at killing snipers.

 

edit: how about we take a look at the in-game description of speed shot?

 

http://imgur.com/dd4HSaL

 

Where is it written that speed shot is instant in the official description of the ability?

Edited May 10, 2014 by Darkshadz