Pulling before the tank

[tharbison]

Thanks - that does make sense. I was really thinking of small groups or single bosses. I can understand the problem with cooldown. And it might specially be a problem not so much with protecting DPS players as needing to protect the healer! But wouldn't mobs have to be pretty scattered not to be caught in an AoE taunt?

 

(I have a powertech and the grappling hook is quite useful for snagging and raising threat to the odd stray!)

 

(I'm just asking a question - I'm not disagreeing with the excellent points you made!)

 

I agree, in the context of regular FP's, yes, any tank worth their salt should be able to gain aggro from most mobs even after another player initiates combat. IMO, when another player pulls, it simply upsets the established group

rhythm, for the whole group, not just the tank. The healer expecting the tank to pull suddenly sees the non-tank at half health. It prevents the tank from executing their pull strategy. It prevents the person playing the tank from doing what they signed up for. All while putting the group at risk.

 

If the non-tank player insists on pulling, they should just roll a tank and show us all how it's done!

Edited May 8, 2014 by tharbison

[Daekarus]

The truth is that only healers are team players.

 

'I see you are struggling, and I could solve this with one button. Instead, I shall stand here and do nothing, or I'll run off and pull a different mob. That will teach you to not do things exactly as I desire.'

 

DPS just want to kill stuff. Tanks are DPS who want to feel important.

 

I think this is partially true. However, nothing is more pleasing to me as a tank than to have somebody accidentally pull a group which looks like it will cause a wipe, and then storming in to grab aggro and drop some CC to bring things under control again. There is something great about watching somebody's health bar dropping and knowing that you can do something about it.

 

Being the focus of a boss's stuns, DOTs, and knockbacks... meh. Saving the day when things start to go south... yes!

[Darkelefantos]

Thanks - that does make sense. I was really thinking of small groups or single bosses. I can understand the problem with cooldown. And it might specially be a problem not so much with protecting DPS players as needing to protect the healer! But wouldn't mobs have to be pretty scattered not to be caught in an AoE taunt?

 

(I have a powertech and the grappling hook is quite useful for snagging and raising threat to the odd stray!)

 

(I'm just asking a question - I'm not disagreeing with the excellent points you made!)

 

Yes, they would have to be, but consider this - the AoE taunt has a pretty long cooldown, so if this happens with every pull, you can't guarantee for anything. Plus, if you use the taunt but deal no damage to most of the enemies, the healer will grab aggro at some point because healing threat is more than no threat.

And grappling hook is one of the things my Jugg admires my PT for

[Sundown]

I haven't run KDY and don't know about this - are you saying you lose your health when you level and spend your talent point? That would stink. Even if that's the case, I still consider it a courtesy to give that player some time to sepc their new point, even if it means we have to wait 10 seconds.

Yes, because in KDY lower level (which is the only possibility to gain a level obviously) you get bolstered to lvl55-like stats. If you change your talent tree you are reset/filled to your "own" values, and thus need to bolster manually again back to what is now calculated based on changes.

 

That's at least my interpretation, as the effect can indeed be witnessed.

[Halinalle]

(I have a powertech and the grappling hook is quite useful for snagging and raising threat to the odd stray!))

 

PTs/Vanguards at level 22.

Sin/Shadow at level ~30(?) depending on how you spend your talent points.

No such ability for Jugg/Guardian, only Saber Throw at level 36.

[tharbison]

I agree, in the context of regular FP's, yes, any tank worth their salt should be able to gain aggro from most mobs even after another player initiates combat. IMO, when another player pulls, it simply upsets the established group rhythm, for the whole group, not just the tank. The healer expecting the tank to pull suddenly sees the non-tank at half health. It prevents the tank from executing their pull strategy. It prevents the person playing the tank from doing what they signed up for. All while putting the group at risk.

 

If the non-tank player insists on pulling, they should just roll a tank and show us all how it's done!

 

I was so thinking of this thread last night - Malestrom Prison FP, I'm tanking, the dps kept pulling. It was probably the worst FP run of my SWTOR career and I've been subbed since release. I usually just roll with it, but no more! If someone else (non-tank) insists on pulling, I will give a warning. If they continue, I'm out! Not worth it. It was one big, hot mess to say the least.

Edited May 9, 2014 by tharbison

[Halinalle]

Actually... if it's one tough mob (boss for example).

In KDY as lowbie (level 20-30) assassin tank I prefer to give sniper or marauder head start and after their first burst:

Dark Ward -> taunt -> Shock -> Discharge -> Thrash/Lacerate -> Recklessness -> Force Lightning ...

 

And mob is mine for rest of the fight!

Edited May 9, 2014 by Halinalle

[ItachiZaku]

I don't use guard in TFPs, no real point in it.

[Gardimuer]

I've tanked, healed, and DPSed tactical FPs. I don't treat tactical FPs as the same as HMs, because tactical FPs literally aren't designed to require roles.

 

As far as I'm concerned, a tank in a tactical FP is just a badly geared DPS who slows down the group by not killing things as quickly. The 'trinity' in MMOs is only important in situations where an enemy is putting out too much damage for a pure DPS geared player to survive - in any situation where that is not the case (such as in these tactical FPs) the most efficient strategy is to kill enemies as quickly as possible, thus reducing the amount of overall damage dealt to the group. That's why as a healer in Tactical FPs I don't give a damn who pulls first as long as we keep progressing quickly. When I'm a tank, I don't care if the DPS want to pull first. If they can survive the damage then more power to them and we keep on rolling.

 

This is especially obvious in the tactical FP boss fights where we have the 'heal to full' stations. In those the healer shouldn't even waste time using healing abilities, since clicking the heal station is a much faster more powerful heal than any class ability.

 

So for all these reasons, I don't understand people who whine about class roles in a group mission that was literally designed to be role neutral.

 

And don't get me wrong, I love tanking HM FPs. There's something thereaupeutic about micromanaging every pull so that I can grab agro instantly on every add that spawns. When I tank HM FPs I perform my role to ensure that we complete quickly and no one dies. But there's no pleasure to be had in tanking a tactical FP where my stellar ability to take less damage doesn't do anything to help the group complete faster. Thus, I don't see any point in getting up on my high horse about a role that is irrelevant to the content we are steamrolling.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Gardimuer

[Halinalle]

As far as I'm concerned, a tank in a tactical FP is just a badly geared DPS who slows down the group by not killing things as quickly.

 

I agree, especially with sub-30 tankasin (no mitigation stats in mods) so others try to speed things up by aggroing everything. If you do that though... Don't expect me to tank it. Force Cloak + Blackout is powerful combination. Yeah, I know... "tank who refuses to tank should be kicked from group".

Edited May 10, 2014 by Halinalle

[ItachiZaku]

As far as I'm concerned, a tank in a tactical FP is just a badly geared DPS who slows down the group by not killing things as quickly.

 

I'm guessing you've never done Korriban Incursion with no stealthers and all DPS.

 

Trinity isn't needed in tacticals, but I've always felt having one was much quicker and easier. You never had to stop to self heal, you can just go go go.

[ValeGreiger]

In tactical fps, there's no point in tanking if there are no heals. What, you're gonna grab all aggro and have nothing sustain you? That's masochistic. If the dps wants to jump ahead, go ahead and let him. If he dies, rest of the group will pick up the slack. If he survives, rest of the group will pick up the slack regardless. Only thing one should be wary about in tfps is if someone decide it'd be fun to aggro the entire room and not let anyone recuperate.

 

 

Now regular fp/ops? That's a different story...

[Halinalle]

Only thing one should be wary about in tfps is if someone decide it'd be fun to aggro the entire room and not let anyone recuperate.

 

Usually they also forget that stealthers can leave combat whenever they want if they are above level 22.

"You pulled them so now have fun tanking!"

 

But of course you can be votekicked for doing it though.

[fire-breath]

I've tanked, healed, and DPSed tactical FPs. I don't treat tactical FPs as the same as HMs, because tactical FPs literally aren't designed to require roles.

 

As far as I'm concerned, a tank in a tactical FP is just a badly geared DPS who slows down the group by not killing things as quickly. The 'trinity' in MMOs is only important in situations where an enemy is putting out too much damage for a pure DPS geared player to survive - in any situation where that is not the case the most efficient strategy is to kill enemies as quickly as possible.

 

I hate to inform you than that you are one huge waste in a level 55 hard mode. I'm not kidding. You are dragging your team down and should be a shamed of your self. Respec your tanks to dps like yesterday and zerg those 55 HMs.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind you being a tank but you think of yourself as a waste currently.

 

Lv 55 flashpoints don't need a tank to complete. A dps is perfectly able to take the full brunt of the damage from the bosses and trashpulls. I have seen this before, I have tanked HMs on my dps either solo, duo or because the tank was a dps with tankbutton enabled. Same goes for a few friends of mine.

I have healed sub55 flashpoints and heroic 2, 2+ and 4s with tanks with empty shells, white 'amor-only' pieces and dps with or without shields.

 

Long story short, you really don't need a tank for anything besides the hardest content opswise (and a potential groupfinder to pop). Therefore arguing that tanks are worthless in tacticals implies that they are worthless for most other content too

 

My own personal view on whether tanks have a good use is that they have, even in tacticals. Most often tanks are more knowledgeable about positioning of bosses. Also a tank makes sure all adds stay together so they can be AoE'ed down. I have yet to see a dps who brings everything together. Finally, if only the tank takes damage he can be easily healed up with a few quick (instant) offheals. All in all its not that easy to say a tank would drag down the group.

Regarding lowbe tanks. Ever seen the obsceen armorrating lowbe tanks get? My guardiantank almost hitted 80% DR when he was a real lowbe.

 

Regarding pulling before the tank? If I'm the tank I stop tanking. Not gonna bother tanking if the group isn't respecting my role properly.

[grrrly]

Regarding pulling before the tank? If I'm the tank I stop tanking. Not gonna bother tanking if the group isn't respecting my role properly.

 

I was pleasantly surprised in a 16 man pug the other night to see a sentinel removed from the group immediately after he pulled a group of elites. It was no accident, he ran ahead of the group to leap in. The leader was a no-nonsense tank who was very good at his job, and he booted the sentinel without a word.

[slafko]

Kudos to that tank. *bows respectfully*

[Sylvaria]

Ok... I felt like I needed to weigh in here a bit from a healer perspective.

 

Is this a problem, and I am really going to direct this at the bulk of the issue Marauders/Sentinels? Yes.. Yes it is and a bad one now. This last double XP weekend I really saw this get a great deal worse than it had been before. I have heard arguments in TS and seen them in game to justify this behavior of leap/smashing ahead of the tank, which had me cringing.

 

Ok, so frequently when I am healing, these "pully DPS' don't either watch nor do they care about my force regeneration and will flat out chain pull while I am racing along using consumption/noble sacrifice recklessly just to try and keep up with them. A good tank or even a mediocre one is far better if they are attentive to my force bar and stop to give me regen time periodically. Something many of the spider monkeys don't do or care to do. I have seen this behavior filter into other aspects of the game as well, OPS/Etc. with disastrous results.

 

I think one change EA/Bioware could do to help fix this would be to give us healers a zero-CD force pull, outside of PvP of course, so that we could keep yanking mid-leap those pully Mara/Sent's. Letting a Mara/Sent die a few times frequently doesn't give them the hint. But, you force pull them out of a leap/smash combo when they have popped all their CD's to be EPIC. Yup, they get really angry and vocal about it. Basically, they need a leash and that would give us the ability to put one on them.

[Kingsbount]

Ok... I felt like I needed to weigh in here a bit from a healer perspective.

 

Is this a problem, and I am really going to direct this at the bulk of the issue Marauders/Sentinels? Yes.. Yes it is and a bad one now. This last double XP weekend I really saw this get a great deal worse than it had been before. I have heard arguments in TS and seen them in game to justify this behavior of leap/smashing ahead of the tank, which had me cringing.

 

Ok, so frequently when I am healing, these "pully DPS' don't either watch nor do they care about my force regeneration and will flat out chain pull while I am racing along using consumption/noble sacrifice recklessly just to try and keep up with them. A good tank or even a mediocre one is far better if they are attentive to my force bar and stop to give me regen time periodically. Something many of the spider monkeys don't do or care to do. I have seen this behavior filter into other aspects of the game as well, OPS/Etc. with disastrous results.

 

I think one change EA/Bioware could do to help fix this would be to give us healers a zero-CD force pull, outside of PvP of course, so that we could keep yanking mid-leap those pully Mara/Sent's. Letting a Mara/Sent die a few times frequently doesn't give them the hint. But, you force pull them out of a leap/smash combo when they have popped all their CD's to be EPIC. Yup, they get really angry and vocal about it. Basically, they need a leash and that would give us the ability to put one on them.

 

Leash on mara

That's a good one)))

[CrazyGreggy]

*cough*

 

WTB Someone with photoshop skills

Edited May 15, 2014 by CrazyGreggy

[wainot-keel]

Ok... I felt like I needed to weigh in here a bit from a healer perspective.

 

Is this a problem, and I am really going to direct this at the bulk of the issue Marauders/Sentinels? Yes.. Yes it is and a bad one now. This last double XP weekend I really saw this get a great deal worse than it had been before. I have heard arguments in TS and seen them in game to justify this behavior of leap/smashing ahead of the tank, which had me cringing.

 

Ok, so frequently when I am healing, these "pully DPS' don't either watch nor do they care about my force regeneration and will flat out chain pull while I am racing along using consumption/noble sacrifice recklessly just to try and keep up with them. A good tank or even a mediocre one is far better if they are attentive to my force bar and stop to give me regen time periodically. Something many of the spider monkeys don't do or care to do. I have seen this behavior filter into other aspects of the game as well, OPS/Etc. with disastrous results.

 

I think one change EA/Bioware could do to help fix this would be to give us healers a zero-CD force pull, outside of PvP of course, so that we could keep yanking mid-leap those pully Mara/Sent's. Letting a Mara/Sent die a few times frequently doesn't give them the hint. But, you force pull them out of a leap/smash combo when they have popped all their CD's to be EPIC. Yup, they get really angry and vocal about it. Basically, they need a leash and that would give us the ability to put one on them.

 

Eh, give the smash monkeys a break. Sometimes they don't even realized they are being healed, so it's not like they are being purposely inconsiderate, right ?

 

Yesterday, in mando raiders hm, the dps asked to do the bonus boss. Okay, so we started and tank simply stood still, he was decently geared so no prob eating the boss' red circles. But the marauder was staying too, with a whooping 25k health pool. I healed through that one time. A 2nd time. The 3rd I don't bother and he dies. When I type "you should avoid red circles" he says "but I was doing ok"....

[BobFredJohn]

Ok, so frequently when I am healing, these "pully DPS' don't either watch nor do they care about my force regeneration and will flat out chain pull while I am racing along using consumption/noble sacrifice recklessly just to try and keep up with them.

 

I have my own method of dealing with this, let them die, then tell them to wait for your force. If they listen, easy going, if they dont, they die repeatedly.

 

I had one particular incident at KDY where a mara point out refused to run with the group. First bit was the disable the cannons, we all go right, then once the fight is started he goes left and pulls a total of 5 strong and 4 standard enemies and he gets mullered. While we are busy getting second console he stands in middle, as soon as barrier is down he attacks the enemies in the middle, he dies. we get to the bottom of the middle bit, all go right (except of course the mara). he goes left, dies on first group, med centre, goes left, dies on second group (the groups he has already aggroed come acorss the map to fight us other 3), he goes left third time, beats group 3 (3 standards), dies to group 4. He proceeds to die on 5, by which time we have cleared the room.

 

Second room, starship construction. The story goes exactly the same with another 6 deaths for the mara (dont ask me how he managed that many deaths on starship construction, i myself still dont think its possible even after seeing it). boss is guardian 1, he has around 9 or 10 deaths to that. we all "exit area" and he pops into the chat, just before we all go "you lot are Fing useless, my repair bill is going to be huge!!".

[MasterXMatthew]

I tend to votekick such tanks right before last boss with some snarky message (as I mostly play with guildmembers the tank is kicked) and then do it with another DPS companion instead. Thankfully I think a lot learnt from it since now this problem with slow tanks isn't such a regular issue anymore.

 

Are you sure that you just haven't been added to a lot of ignore lists? Personally, the tacit if not explicit support by your guild of your behavior is yet another great example of why one should be able to put an entire guild on ignore.

[DrewFromPhilly]

All this hating on marauder/sentinel pains me deeply. Yes, I've also seen terrible players using this class, but that's more to do with the player themselves than the class itself. The lovely, lovely class I recently discovered finally, the one I kind of shelved every other char over because they are all just not as much fun.

 

End the discrimination plz

[Khevar]

All this hating on marauder/sentinel pains me deeply. Yes, I've also seen terrible players using this class, but that's more to do with the player themselves than the class itself. The lovely, lovely class I recently discovered finally, the one I kind of shelved every other char over because they are all just not as much fun.

 

End the discrimination plz

It's difficult to change public perception of a stereotype when so many people exhibit it's characteristics.

 

I believe the problem is two-fold:

 

1. Many new players tend to try a Jedi Knight or Sith Warrior first. It's an iconic part of Star Wars, after all.

2. The actual class mechanics encourage you to chain pull.

 

Think about it. You've got a 30-foot leap that generates action. At the end of one fight, if you don't immediately leap into the next one, your action slowly drains away. When I was leveling my Sentinel I would exhibit the very same "Ja! Mein Leapen!" behavior that so many people complain about. I have to deliberately curb that behavior when I'm in a group.

 

Remember, while waiting for the next pull, everyone else is recovering resources. The JK/SW is losing theirs.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Khevar

[AbsolutGrndZero]

The actual class mechanics encourage you to chain pull.

 

Think about it. You've got a 30-foot leap that generates action. At the end of one fight, if you don't immediately leap into the next one, your action slowly drains away. When I was leveling my Sentinel I would exhibit the very same "Ja! Mein Leapen!" behavior that so many people complain about. I have to deliberately curb that behavior when I'm in a group.

 

Remember, while waiting for the next pull, everyone else is recovering resources. The JK/SW is losing theirs.

 

Never thought about it that way, and my main is a sentinel... I tend to not chain pull in groups because in WoW my tank was a main, and I quit tanking because of stupid DPS... so now my main is just DPS (but I do have some tanks) but I am not a jerk DPS... but yeah, hmmm Bioware really did kinda say "Yo! Knights and Warriors! You should totally be jerks!" with how they work opposite everyone else.