Pulling before the tank

[Shariva]

Like the person above me, I love tanking. I have one healer and three tanks. When I play as a tank, I want to have aggro on as many mobs as I possibly can. And unlike the person above me, I couldn't give the furry crack of rats behind how fast I go through a flashpoint, ops or even a heroic instance.

 

When in a normal flashpoint, ops or heroic as a tank, I make it a point that I prefer to pull/storm in/leap in. I have done every flashpoint there is more then once but I can be a bit rusty on some, as some tend to be run more often then others. If I'm in a flashpoint where I'm a bit rusty, I first check what I face, then check my group if they seem ready, and then make the pull.

 

If there is an overzealous DPS in the group that thinks that s/he needs to take on the biggest, baddest mob, I get pissed. And also evil. When this happens, I go by the rule that is already mentioned: if you spank it, you tank it. Meaning I will not grab aggro back from you while you are still spanking that particular mob. No taunts or what have you will I use to get that mean mob off you. I will make sure that I am the second on the hate-list of the mob and let the DPS figure it out themselves. This either results in a dead DPS or in a DPS running around like a headless chicken. I also refer to this as the lesson of the burned hand; as it is the burned hand that learns best.

 

The other thing I dislike, is when I charge in to grab aggro, a knockback is used almost immediately. This usually means that my AoE aggro generator fails, is on cooldown and the mobs scatter all over the place. Also means I have at least one member of the group in immediate trouble; the healer. I have to run after the mobs and round them up to get them together again. And yeah, when I have done that, it seems very fun to use the knockback again. This usually results in me stopping to move when the fight is over and demanding that AoE knockbacks are removed from the skill rotation. Either that or find a new tank.

 

The exception on all this is the tactical flashpoints. I find them kind of "meh" anyway and people can do whatever they like there. I don't really care. In fact, I usually go into DPS mode there myself.

[ekwalizer]

So with the new tactical fp's it is possible to get into a group with 4 dps, 4 heals, 4 tanks, or any combination of that.

So why when you get a tank, 2 dps, and a healer do we ignore the trinity in tactical Fp's, moreover why do people ignore that their is a tank and jump on ahead and pull before the tank? Is it because we all know they (tactical fp) are easy?

 

I guess as a tank i get annoyed when people pull before me, as a healer i get annoyed when people pull before the tank cause NO MATTER how "OP" that particular person is pulling before the tank requires ME AS HEALER to work harder, and i REALLY hate as a DPS when the healer pulls before everyone.

 

Now, is this because people are IMPATIENT or do they really see the encounter as NON-THREATENING?

 

I'm inclined to assume most of you who are guilty of this are just impatient and use the reason "it is easy" as an excuse for your lack of patience. That is all. /endrant.

 

I don't have a signature, but i play on The Shadowlands.

 

When I tank and a DPS pulls, I don't taunt whatever it is off them.

When I heal and a DPS pulls, I don't heal them.

[Halinalle]

EDIT: On a funnier note, about repair costs, I ran an fps once where we died a few times due to stupid things, so I made some off-hand comment about how much it was gonna cost, and one of the guys in the party takes it personally for some reason and begins to insist that repair costs never go over 3k no matter what.

 

I wanted to take screenshot of that 13k repair bill for my level 43 Sorc back then but I forgot because I was so angry about the fact that group can fail at droid boss that many times.

 

But "never go over 3k no matter what"? Guy didn't obviously play this game when it was released... I'm really glad that those insanely high repair bills are history.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Halinalle

[SW_display_name]

I've seen some truly beastly repair bills come out of Red Reaper with a particularly bad, bugged, or laggy (or all 3) group.

 

Ikoral's plan for victory may include economic sanctions.

 

But then, I'm stubborn (insane?) and will tend to stick with groups, even stupid groups, until I drag them through with my teeth whenever I'm healing or tanking.

Edited April 23, 2014 by SW_display_name

[Fazaani]

When you get annoyed about anything in this game, scale back a few notch and set matters to perspective. There is no one right way to do these things.

 

tbh i think ppl are what they are even when they try to be something else. Ahole is a ahole weather s/he is doing this or that so just say once and if no effect/reaction -> votekick... they aren't hard to spot.

 

Same goes otherway too. Often too hasty mara is just newb who is trying to show that "i'm here doing my part" That don't make him idiot as such morelike anxious and apprehensive.

 

And TFp:s you can't escape the fact that they are easy and those who farm thingies like relics, pets and mounts tend to play them kinda sloppy. (like myself doing forged alliances with 14 chars to get set asap...)

 

As for unclear cases: If someone goes being an idiot (and seems not realize that) i tell s/he what could be done better there. I often whisper too so s/he don't get offended by the fact that i made it "public". But ofc ppl get offended anyway COZ NONE NEED'S YOUR HELP!!

 

If i'm tanking and dps pulls and we don't have a problem or wipe, why moan about it? If player don't have a clue what to do i try to tell them what to do. (i remember that i qued first time too back in the day)

 

Also someone mentioned teamwork i believe that it's also part of the teams work to cover the less experienced players. So i don't make rules to myself like "i dont heal idiots and i don't taunt mobs pulled by idiot". I try to use adaptation and as a heals it's like "TONIGHT! Can he keep them all alive against all the odds!!??!"

 

Last: i que for myself every time, i have something to gain by doing that fp or op (waether it's the loot,price,rep or just the expreience). So i want to get it done, if it's not happening or ppl start to fight about pointles stuff, it's not about the game it's about something else... Ofc we all have our bad days...

 

EDIT: Look mom!!! I almost made a wall!

Edited April 23, 2014 by Fazaani

[wainot-keel]

I wanted to take screenshot of that 13k repair bill for my level 43 Sorc back then but I forgot because I was so angry about the fact that group can fail at droid boss that many times.

 

.

 

It's people not taking care of adds, even when they are told adds are a priority, but they let them be. Quickly, the group gets overwhelmed by adds and many deaths will occur. I once had and 50 minutes KUAT run with that boss at then end. I always put a minor flashpoint booster when I start. It had only 10 minutes left when we finished

[Halinalle]

It's people not taking care of adds, even when they are told adds are a priority, but they let them be. Quickly, the group gets overwhelmed by adds and many deaths will occur. I once had and 50 minutes KUAT run with that boss at then end. I always put a minor flashpoint booster when I start. It had only 10 minutes left when we finished

 

Yes, that's exactly what happened. I said many times "Kill adds". They were like "No! You kill the boss and adds die in the end".

 

Has anyone even managed to dps the boss before getting overwhelmed? Is it even possible?

Edited April 23, 2014 by Halinalle

[Fazaani]

Has anyone even managed to dps the boss before getting overwhelmed? Is it even possible?

 

It was said it can be nuked down by high damage team... but i haven't ever witnessed such thing or even really tried. But if i had to bet money for it i would bet yes...

 

EDIT: Dulfy

•If your group have enough DPS, you can simply ignore the droids and just focus on the boss. He will lose all the stacks of Charged levels once he uses Full Charge Volley

•If your group’s DPS is low, you may need to split up to kill the support droids as otherwise they would increase in numbers and charges up the Guardian to 100 stacks very quick.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Fazaani

[jade_de_aguilera]

Last: i que for myself every time, i have something to gain by doing that fp or op (weather it's the loot,price,rep or just the experience). So i want to get it done, if it's not happening or ppl start to fight about pointless stuff, it's not about the game it's about something else... Ofc we all have our bad days...

 

this so true

 

I actually have two tanks and one of them is quite new and i really want to train it, so i prefer to do proper tanking, but i guess just not on tactical FPs

Edited April 23, 2014 by jade_de_aguilera

[royhenderson]

I never mind when someone pulls before I do, but I laugh my butt off when they die lol

[Gobgrot]

For these special types of people, I'll generally drop and /ignore. Won't really matter to them for tacticals but if they ever want to get a regular hard mode queue to pop, too bad so sad, one less tank to carry you.

 

While I dont normally go as far as dropping, when I tank an instance and people are out of control and making mine and the healers jobs harder I will put them on ignore. Let them stew in lfg wondering why the cant get a group. Im sure there are a lot of other tanks that do this was well.

[DarkDisturbed]

Like others have said, if you can do an FP with 4 DPS who cares who pulls first? zzzzzzz...

[StormTerminus]

This thread is full of people who display they are not team players. The healers who won't heal if it doesn't please them but can't be bothered to chat to group about why. The tanks who won't taunt. The dps who go rogue and pull all the time at 30% health.

 

 

1. If you are a healer, consider healing. If you have a complaint voice it rather than being a passive aggressive idiot.
   
2. If you are a tank, then consider pulling or using a taunt. Again being a passive aggressive *ss when you have a leadership role is just wrong.
   
3. If you are DPS pay attention to group dynamics and ask a question if something happens.
   
4. All, not using group chat is kind of a stupid thing to do. Consider it.
   

 

 

If I see a healer who doesn't heal and stands around, then I will vote kick you. And I generally have at least one guildy with me in KDY. Tanks tend to be slow, I get that, it is the nature of the beast. People choose DPS because it is fast to level and play, that isn't the mentality of a Tank. DPS pulling is perfectly fine in KDY. It is amusing when you have mortar volley and force quake going on a pull in KDY. All the trash dies and there is generally one big guy standing that everyone then focus fires down. Easy.

 

I think Sentinels tend to get in trouble since they are up close and tend to be a little smash button heavy. Ranged DPS can see more of the fight and control what they are shooting at mostly.

[sanctified]

Generally speaking, for Flash point tanking, I no longer care who hits what, as long as nothing's hitting the healer. I only use taunts during boss fights. The only thing that annoys me now, is when someone uses a knock-back to push targets off me. That's stupid.

 

My new indifferent attitude has made me a few fans. I enjoy tanking lowbie flash points with an under 51 Guardian/Juggernaut, just to collect compliments like "I didn't know a Juggernaut could tank like that," like I'm some kind of genius for doing the most obvious **** in the world and hitting stuff before it can aggro on a healer, along with the occasional line of sight pull.

Edited May 1, 2014 by sanctified

[FlyinSpaghetti]

So with the new tactical fp's it is possible to get into a group with 4 dps, 4 heals, 4 tanks, or any combination of that.

So why when you get a tank, 2 dps, and a healer do we ignore the trinity in tactical Fp's, moreover why do people ignore that their is a tank and jump on ahead and pull before the tank? Is it because we all know they (tactical fp) are easy?

 

I guess as a tank i get annoyed when people pull before me, as a healer i get annoyed when people pull before the tank cause NO MATTER how "OP" that particular person is pulling before the tank requires ME AS HEALER to work harder, and i REALLY hate as a DPS when the healer pulls before everyone.

 

Now, is this because people are IMPATIENT or do they really see the encounter as NON-THREATENING?

 

I'm inclined to assume most of you who are guilty of this are just impatient and use the reason "it is easy" as an excuse for your lack of patience. That is all. /endrant.

 

I don't have a signature, but i play on The Shadowlands.

 

With the tactical's this is how I do it:

 

1/ If it's just a bunch on normals/strongs like at the start of Czerka then then it's no point waiting for the tank.

 

2/ If however it's a nasty pack of elites/champs like in tython/korriban then I wait for the tank to grab initial aggro before I jump in.

 

However 9 times out of 10 as a dotsmash sent I end up ripping of the tank anyway.

[shyninja]

If it's a regular FP i entirely agree with you 100% DPS should not be pulling before the tank. It makes the tanks and the healers job more difficult. However when it comes to Tactical fps i have to disagree. The trinity of DPS, Healer and Tank no longer happens every single instance.

 

In many cases if you choose to Tank you will have 3 DPS with you. They're no heals to support them and all the damage is being directed at a sole person. Ive seen many cases where on trickier pulls, tanks will die even with their defensive CDs. Its a slow process towards death without a healer.

 

The reason 4 DPS can manage in KDY so well, is they spread out the damage amongst themselves, with a series of defensive CDs and aggro drops.

 

I'm not saying tanks aren't useful in KDY, Its just the traditional "Tanks always pull first!" doesn't really apply there.

When I'm on my tank, I can absorb some of the incoming damage and taunt if I see a group mate in trouble. But from personal experience Ive learned jumping in first isn't always the best strategy. If that strategy seems to kill me first

if a DPS leaps in first the damage can be spread out amongst the entire group. If they're taking too much damage i can taunt. In this way the pull becomes much more manageable.

 

All in all its a TACTICAL flashpoint, use creative ways to deal with certain group dynamics.

I went in with 3 Tanks once we just taunted off each other when one of us was getting low on health.

What about 3 Healers? they started to DPS and healed each other when they were getting low on health.

The most common 4 DPS? Aggro Drops, Defensive CDs, and minor off healing made quick work of the entire instance.

Edited May 4, 2014 by shyninja

[MCaliban]

I just can't do it. Call it a sickness, but as a Healer, if someone's dying, I do my best to keep them alive. Group can vkick (and I'll even support it) if they're unhappy with the person.

 

It's kind of like how doctors, surgeons, hospitals, etc. still treat people who get injured by doing incredibly stupid things. Like, yes, you think they're an idiot. But you're not going to just let them bleed to death or lose a limb.

 

That's just me, though. I totally understand why some healers who have the willpower to watch people die, use it as a teaching tool. Or to preserve their own sanity.

 

Or save their own life — Mara focus on ST DPS tends to mean a Mara running ahead aggros exactly 1 thing, I heal them, and then 5 more things all come for me while the Mara obliviously tunnels their mob down.

 

That's the sort of attitude I love.

 

"None of you understand. I'm not in a flashpoint with you, you're in a flashpoint with me!"

 

again, i'm talking at level 55 guys...

 

You failed to specify this in the original post. People began talking about pre-55 FPs and now people are responding to those posts.

 

One thing a lot of you might not realize is, not all tank classes have the same skills for agro management. As a guardian I only have one group taunt, it last 6 seconds if Im not damaging the mobs and only 1 skill to damage the long range mobs. This skill has a long cooldown (1 minute ) so isnt always available when I need it. If I get 2-3 large pulls in a row I might feel its necessary to wait for that cd once in a while. Especially doing pugs when Im not comfortable with the healer or the dps's understanding that their job is to keep mobs from attacking the healer ( this is something MOST dps dont seem to understand).

 

Leap -> Sundering Assault -> Smash -> Force Scream.

 

Most of the time, it's the tank's job to keep the healer alive. If something is attacking the healer, leap to it and ravage it or smash it until it stops. It takes a minimal amount of damage for a tank to generate more threat than a healer.

 

Ranged attackers are hard, especially when they're spaced out. Spending the beginning of a fight running around hitting everything at least once feels silly and takes some time to get used. If it's really a problem, try to find a spot to break the ranged attacker's LOS and they'll all run forward and bunch up in one area so you can slam them all.

 

My experience with KDY is that this is quite easy to do on its maps.

 

If you're talking about adds attacking a healer during a boss fight, and for some reason you can't get to them, remind the healer that they should run to you.

Edited May 5, 2014 by MCaliban

[Citruzz]

Pulling before the tank

 

I do it, of course. If everyone is ready and there is no reason for what the tank is waiting for, then i going to pull (stealthy :-)).

[AbsolutGrndZero]

 

Life is hard as a Darkside V Roleplayer, but a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do.

 

So, if Kane Hodder were to go on a killing spree of camp counselors, could he use this as an excuse? "I'm just playing a role!" is not an excuse to be a jerk to the other players, any more than an actor could use it as an excuse. Seriously, I say you are an *** because you give roleplayers a bad name. I am sick of players using "I"m a roleplayer yo!" as an excuse for being an *** out of character.

[slafko]

Had a dps pug pulling every mob and engaging the strongest mob available in The Foundry yesterday. Since the healer didn't mind getting beaten on to 10% of Health every time, I disabled my tanking stance and merrily attacked weak mobs. This rushing continued all the way up to HK where the tanking dude waited for me to engage.

 

And when I didn't, all sorts of abuse and name-calling ensued.

[AbsolutGrndZero]

Wow guys, relax a bit here, I thought people would understand the fact that I was just joking when I mentioned that I did it since I was Darkside 5, clearly irony and sarcasm is problematic on da internetz

 

Intent and inflection do not get translated by text alone, plus there ARE players who do use such reasons to excuse being a jerk in many games. I've seen it all the way back to Everquest when I saw players of dark elves using "I'm a dark elf" as an excuse to be a jerk.

[BobFredJohn]

I had a similar problem with KDY when leveling my juggernaught.

 

I found people were pulling before me, thats fine by me they can do what they want. But when I am already fighting 1 group and 1 dps runs off to attack a group he cant beat, gets killed then says "you F useless tank." i try to explain i can only tank in 1 place at a time and if he wants to survive he should run with the group, but oh no "this is easy we shouldnt even need a tank."

 

As soon as he says that i switch off soresu, go sii-cho. we run round abit, this dps dies in the following 4 fights and asks me why im not tanking I tell him "you told me not to tank, you said theres no need its easy" and I get a vote kick appear, luckily the other 2 are pissed of with this bloke so dont kick me.

 

I just dont get why, when some1 tells me he doesnt want me to tank, then trolls me for not tanking.

Edited May 6, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[ItachiZaku]

I guess as a tank i get annoyed when people pull before me.

 

I have been queuing as DPS, so that I can learn the new FPs. But I take initiative, I taunt, etc. Now, when it is CLEAR that I'm taking lead and tanking, people usually let me do my thing, but in the two new TFPs, you really need the Trinity or you will probably die a few times (unless you skillfully CC).

 

Those two pulls outside of Sith Academy... good lord. No CC and no trinity, you will die.

[Kryand]

The way I see it, if you're the kind of tank who would get upset just because a DPS pulled before you, you're probably a self-entitled scrub and not worth playing with. That said, in the rare case that I do queue for FPs, I know what I am getting into and get my patience on. Most of the time I am the healer, but no matter what role I am, I try to just figure out what kind of players I am dealing with and play accordingly. I am always prepared for the likelihood that I will have to carry the run, and I do my best to do so every time no matter how bad or uncooperative the other players are. However, I mostly only do FPs with guildies, in which case we chain-pull every mob and purposely try to make each others roles as difficult as possible just for the fun of it. So I am used to all kinds of stuff going wrong. The only thing that really annoys me is when the bad players start trying to tell me what to do as if I am not carrying them. But even that I usually let slide.

 

Edit: I should also mention I am mostly referring to 55 HMFPs. But being that tactical FPs are even easier, this applies even more so to them.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Kryand

[CrazyGreggy]

*snipped a load of self-important peen stroking*

 

And that's enough out of you, sir.