DPS Meters...

[Abye]

I question if the anti-damagemeter people want to do hardmode.

[DrunknVagrent]

I question that there is a hard mode with damage meters

[Cylthia]

I would be perfectly happy with a built-in meter that only shows my personal dps and how it compares to the average of the other dps speced players in the group. I love raiding but I'm always very aware that I'm not the most naturally talented player; that just means I have to work harder, and I'm fine with that. But that also means that I need a means of comparing my performance to others'. In my wow guild, my (awesome) raid leader takes the approach that so long as the group's average dps is high enough to beat the enrage timer, we're good, and the only time anyone's asked to make changes and step it up is when our output is low enough that success is more or less mathematically impossible. If you're in a group where you feel access to damage meters would make for a less fun environment, you're probably just playing with the wrong people.

 

I'm usually on the high end of the meters, but it's because I really work to make sure I'm keeping up. I like to know that I'm not holding the group back; if I can't see how much damage I'm doing, how do I know if there's more I should be doing to help my team succeed?

[Gorlough]

As a raid leader I'm all for damage/heal-meters (noone needs thread meters, as DPS fill that role). And as a raid leader I'm all against those meters.

Meters are a good tool for me to check if everybody does his job, to check if there's potential to do more heal/dps for an encounter.

They completely suck in regard of getting DPS to over-agro.

I could see in those metrics, if somebody was distracted while raiding, if somebody had a bad day, a new rotation or whatelse. I totally could see if someone just was in for the loot, when doing randoms (and I didn't hesitate to kick them out of the raid for that).

Those meters are one fine tool, when it comes to check the overall perfomance of your raid and to spot weaker players that might need some advise from stronger ones. But those meters also tend to go rogue and produce elitism. But that's up to the raid leader, if they allow the use of 'em.

 

Still, they're important to me, when I want to get my raid going (especially since I miss out on my old guild mates) with people that I don't know for years already.

[Roguewiz]

DPS meters have their positive and negative points. The positive is that you're able to improve yourself by finding the best rotation possible. The negative is obviously the amount of epeen measuring, leetism, and simple douchebagness you will encounter.

 

While personally, I could care either way if we have DPS meters or not, I know some people want them. If anything, we need to be able to mod the current UI and have macro's. Nothing worse than having abilities with certain conditions or procs, and missing it because of server-side update issues.

[CaptMonkey]

I love DPS meters. I don't understand people complaining about them. Yes, some people are annoying about them, constantly pasting the results to chat and talking about them. Personally, I would never give the meters from a fight unless someone asked. For me, it became a great tool to get better. When I started raiding, I was on the low end on the meters. I began reading tips on rotation and stats and I began to move up the charts. Eventually, I got to the point where I was at the top in every fight I was ever in, be it pug, guild, or whatever. Had it not been for the meters, I'd never have known how I was doing and not had the drive to improve myself.

 

I don't get this "If you're good, you know how much damage you're doing." mentality. Why don't we just remove the ability to see stats on items too? If you're good, you know what item is better.

[Kelticfury]

Still no response to the fact that most dps classes in this game do heals as well. This isn't wow, you can't use a dps meter to see who isn't performing because if they aren't dpsing they are probably keeping you alive.

[Kilograms]

Still no response to the fact that most dps classes in this game do heals as well. This isn't wow, you can't use a dps meter to see who isn't performing because if they aren't dpsing they are probably keeping you alive.

 

The problem here is that this game does not have some sort of support role involved. Its one thing to have a dps stopping every once and a while to throw out a few aoe heals out won't cause a ton of damage deficit. However the dps that suddenly decode mid fight that they need to heal leads up to 2 problems.

 

A) the healers aren't doing their jobs, if they are having serious issues with that then they are either bad, or there is a distinct possibility that another healer is needed.

 

B) the dps that is stopping to heal, doesn't actually need to stop to heal. One of the funniest mentalities I see in mmo's is this need to have everyone topped off. If the healer isn't topping everyone off, but they are still survivng the aoe mechanics, then the healer is doing his/her job sucessfully. The dps stopping dps in order to put out extra healing is actually failing to do their assigned job (deal damage).

[Velr]

Still no response to the fact that most dps classes in this game do heals as well. This isn't wow, you can't use a dps meter to see who isn't performing because if they aren't dpsing they are probably keeping you alive.

 

 

 

There are only VERY rare cases where you need an "offhealer".

 

 

Creating a Group, no matter the size, is simple:

You take Healers with you to Heal.

You take DPS with you to DPS.

You don't suddenly start taking DPS with you to Heal or Heal to do occasional DPS. You also don't send your DPS tanking just because his class as a tanking tree, do you?

 

Most of the time a DPS healing itself, is doing it wrong. This is (most of the times) the Healers job. He can do it way more efficient, way faster and your group isn't losing DMG.

 

The only time you should heal yourself is when you can't do DMG or your Healers clearly can't keep up (or are dead ).

 

Your argument does not hold for 99% of the encounters .

Edited January 4, 2012 by Velr

[Brino]

I don't like dps-meters, because many people, even among my frinds, are driven to egocentric behaviours. The simple fun, one can have with a class, is reduced to some numbers and the "we together" - feeling is turned into competition.

 

I don't want to have dps-meters for swtor.

[Calens]

I've used damage meters in the past on other games and have found them useful - especially if you're playing a class that relies on dots and procs.

 

I'm not overly fussed with having a damage meter just yet though, the games been out for three weeks and it seems that people are trying to rush to the end content and beat the game before it's out of it's infancy.

 

What I would like to see over and above a damage meter though, is an activity meter. I used to use these more in raids of old to make sure that people were at least spending time on a boss, or doing stuff in a raid as opposed to sitting back during trash or the like.

 

I would be happy not having them at all because having been a hardcore raider in the past, I've seen people kicked out of raids because they were not within 5% of the highest dps'er (which wasn't me btw).

 

I would like to see an awful lot more tweaks to the game before anything is added. Would it not be better for the tweaks made and the bugs fixed before asking for additional stuff to be added to the game?

[Dorlomin]

The problem here is that this game does not have some sort of support role involved. Its one thing to have a dps stopping every once and a while to throw out a few aoe heals out won't cause a ton of damage deficit. However the dps that suddenly decode mid fight that they need to heal leads up to 2 problems.

 

A) the healers aren't doing their jobs, if they are having serious issues with that then they are either bad, or there is a distinct possibility that another healer is needed.

 

B) the dps that is stopping to heal, doesn't actually need to stop to heal. One of the funniest mentalities I see in mmo's is this need to have everyone topped off. If the healer isn't topping everyone off, but they are still survivng the aoe mechanics, then the healer is doing his/her job sucessfully. The dps stopping dps in order to put out extra healing is actually failing to do their assigned job (deal damage).

 

You forgot the biggest issue:

 

C) The DPS is too busy trying to tank the mob they should have CC'd instead, thus causing them to take damage to point of having to heal.

 

Sorry, the majority of dps don't need a damage meter, they need a meter that shows how well they play their class (although that could be said for tanks and healers too I suppose).

[Kilograms]

How often in a boss setting does a mob actually need to be held in CC the length of the fight? In situations like this (extremely rare) if a player is opting to tank the mob rather than cc it, that player should be replaced, in fact a damage meter would be useful. The reasoning behind that? The meters will generally show damage taken by players/damage dealt to mobs. Quite frequently placing a mob in CC will cause a lot of threat, so one player might be doing their job correctly, and someone else may be cleaving, attacking the wrong target, or multi dotting (some specs gain procs from dot ticks, putting out extra dots can end up allowing them to nuke the boss more.

 

The end result is the person ccing is dieing because of this. You would probably blame the guy dieing, but it could easily be someone else causing the problem. Even in this very rare hypothetical situation a damage meter would be extremely useful, and prevent the wrong person from losing his/her raid spot. If you seriously think that a damage meter would cause issues on trash (the more likely area for this to actually become a problem) keep in mind that only idiots genuinely base any performance off of trash dps.

 

If people out there have such huge issues with damage meters, just allow combat logging, there are 3rd part programs out there we can use to parse combat logs, which the typical joe mcbaddy won't be able to figure out/abuse. This allows those of us that care about our personal performance, and the idiots can't use them to piss people off.

[Tfranco]

All dps meters do is give people a reason to kick people. As long as the big bad boss dies who gives a ****? If somone is really underpreforming you can tell for instance there is not auto attack feature so if somone is spamming one ability, especially if its one with a CD, its blatenly obvious. All dps meters would do is give eliteists another way to say HAH YOU SUCK!!

[Hermanlee]

All dps meters do is give people a reason to kick people. As long as the big bad boss dies who gives a ****? If somone is really underpreforming you can tell for instance there is not auto attack feature so if somone is spamming one ability, especially if its one with a CD, its blatenly obvious. All dps meters would do is give eliteists another way to say HAH YOU SUCK!!

 

You're not taking one inevitable possibility: when the boss DOESN'T die. When the group wipes and there's no metric to grade a raider's performance, it becomes much more difficult to diagnose the problem and correct it.

[Extravadanza]

Sounds like when inviting DPS to my group I should start asking if they are for or against DPS meters being added to the game. This game has tons of story for all you kids who just want to enjoy the game - go make another character instead of complaining about people discriminating against you in past games because you were bad. I, for one, would like to enjoy the game and also be challenged. I would also like to overcome those challenges with a group of competent players. Assuming there will actually be difficult content in this game, a tool to find out who is competent quickly would waste much less of my time than having to fail many times until we can pinpoint the weak links.

[Keeneyes]

Objecting to DPS meters on the basis that they'll somehow ruin the game through the introduction of elitists is like saying that adding a speedometer to vehicles will ruin your driving experience because everyone is going to race or that without them people won't honk at you when you're driving 20 MPH in the left-hand lane.

 

Keeping a tool out of the game isn't going to stop elitism or critique of others' game play. That's a property of people and not something that can be circumvented by the exclusion of a feature. All it really does is prevent people who DO want to refine their damage output from having an accurate tool to do so.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Keeneyes

[Shonuff]

What I don't understand is why not just take the inititive in a guild and lead by example. It's through my experience in fighting games that if you want to rise above the elitiest and have a positive experience, just lead by example. Be the person to learn and teach people rather than boot people from guilds.

 

You can't control how people behave at least not if its' within the limits of the Policy you follow (Harrassment ect). Basically just don't join the elitist guilds, create your own, take the inititive.

 

Join a guild that is willing to teach noobs become better, thats how we do it in the fightinggame community. We don't exile noob players but rather we provide tools for them to become better. Now granted those are one vs one games we have our share of elitist who like things a certain way. We work around it and provide the same level of expertise on a friendly level and at times is more praised for it.

 

So let there be DPS because elitist tool or not it helps me improve but thats not gonna make me an elitist and it should make you one either. Lead by example, this is an MMO we gotta learn to get along or don't play at all.

[choppefett]

For all of you against Damage Meters, can you answer the following questions without being a hypocrite?

 

Is it elitism when I kick the tank out of my group because he can't hold aggro very well?

 

Is it elitism when I kick the healer out of my group because he can't heal very well?

 

Is it elitism when I kick the idiot out of my group because he can't stop breaking CC's?

 

Is it elitism when I kick the person on interrupt duty because he isn't doing his part?

 

 

Why is it elitism when I kick a dps character for not being good at DPS?

 

The idiot breaking cc's is probably dps. The idiot not interrupting is probably dps too. There you go, now you're kicking everyone out of your groups. I think you should stop pugging until you learn some patience.

 

The real point is that all of the activities you're kicking people out for are critical and can lead to a wipe where as stated already in this thread, the only measure for a successful dps is that things died.

Edited January 6, 2012 by choppefett

[Keeneyes]

the only measure for a successful dps is that things died.

 

Respectfully, that may be YOUR only measure, but I would not say that most people would agree that that is the only successful measure. If it takes you 3 hours to complete a heroic, regardless of whether you eventually beat it, I think a lot of people wouldn't call it "successful".

 

My definition of successful is a run in which everyone is doing a reasonable job at their role. The problem is that without meters, if you are struggling, it may be difficult to tell who's falling down. Frankly, even if it's me (actually, especially if it's me), I want to know that. But then again, I'm a competitive gamer. That's what I have fun doing. YMMV.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Keeneyes

[Pig_Benis]

Ah, the good ol' arguments of the DPS Meters, If you need it, if the game is better off with it, or with out it, so forth. This is a narrative that's told it's story, time and time again, are we better off without that silly little add-on? Or we better with it?

 

This issue doesn't stem from just MMO's, intrinsically it's how we base many of our most important life choices. It is by various metrics we can measure. So when we see people with more money, or better stats, by those various metrics we can bestow a level of importance. It's how ultimately we judge ourselves, and in this fantasy world it's no different.

 

It's what brings up this systemic question.

 

What makes a good player?

 

 

Is it someone you have fun with? Is it someone who produces the most stats? Or who has hair-trigger timing on the attacks? Those who can number crunch or complete rote rotation cycles to perfection? Are these qualities make up a good player?

 

Right now in the game we're ignorant. Well, mostly. If the tank fails you tend to die, or if the healer fails.. the same result, but if one character does the most DPS? Does that attribute to failure or success? Does that make a player good? Does that make a class good?

 

These questions Blizzard often tried to address by constant updates. One week Arcane mages are doing too much damage, thus the sense of worth is placed singularly that you must be a mage, you must be arcane, you must have these gear markers to play this portion of the game. Did that make you a good player by meeting these benchmarks that others set? And how did we measure that worth of that build?

 

The DPS Meter.

 

The issues go deeper than stated.

 

Since Sith Juggernaut Joe could do the rotations (listed by other players) got the gear, and has the picture perfect spec, and did exemplary DPS, does that make him a good player? Does he then deserve better items? The first crack at the most shiny thing, what happens to everyone else? Do we then want to be like this guy?

 

No. It makes him simply compliant, bland and uncreative, and he simply conformed better with his small minute timing of pushing the keys in sequential order.

 

From a game design perspective? This is a nightmare. Because you're not balancing inherent flaws within the design, but whims of a petulant base who all want to be themselves, and who all want to be acknowledged as a good players, but the DPS meter said you did less, so therefore you must be less. Never mind the fact that you could've been the most attentive to area of effect spells, or been on time with interrupt, or that you geninuely are a great person to be around. The DPS meter said, Bob is better than Jane, so therefor we bring Bob, and people like Bob, and not Jane. What if Bob is a jerk? He could be obnoxious, he could be terrible at -everything else- but the meter said he was number one. So we place a measure of importance to be like Bob. So where does that leave Jane? Do we for her to conform to be like Bob? Or do we allow her to be Jane and still bring her along?

 

The point I'm finally getting to, is that we may have good and pure intentions of why we need to measure ones ability. It helps us in many, many ways. But for a MMO community that has been largely immature, self-absorbed, and entitled? It is the worst thing ever.

 

In this case Bioware, and the community of SWTOR? Ignorance is Bliss.

[Kenmuir]

The idiot breaking cc's is probably dps. The idiot not interrupting is probably dps too. There you go, now you're kicking everyone out of your groups. I think you should stop pugging until you learn some patience.

 

The real point is that all of the activities you're kicking people out for are critical and can lead to a wipe where as stated already in this thread, the only measure for a successful dps is that things died.

 

I asked if you could respond without being a hypocrite, but you couldn't do that .

 

Tanking and Healing are "critical" but somehow dps isn't. Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

 

Is a tank successful if he keeps the mob on him a majority of the time?(50%+1)

Is a healer successful if he keeps most of the group alive?

 

Why is the measurement for DPS soo out of line with what the other players have to meet? Why should no one be allowed to have a good measure on DPS, but excellent measure on the other roles in the group?

[NathanWolf]

Wow... this fight will be fought for eternity. It was fought in beta and it will be in the future, whether we get them or not. It's always a heated debate, a lot of people are very passionate about them, either way

 

 

I just want meters because they're fun. For me it's an extra minigame I enjoy:

"See how much I can push my little red bar to go up, while still paying attention to the mechanics of the fight".

I usually don't turn them on when learning a new fight, but when I know what I'm supposed to be doing and what I should and shouldn't be standing in, it gets a bit boring.

The little bars keep me entertained, and help push me to try and squeeze out just that little bit extra ^^ It's also a nice tool to help me figure out my rotations. Finally it also very simply adds a bit of oompf to the coolness of getting new gear. The bars go up further - I feel I got value for my drop. Since so much gear is customizable, my gear will look much the same now as it will later, so I'd like those little bars to help feel like my character is getting more pimped out.

I've rarely used them as an actual tool to decide who gets to raid with my group, it's only been a factor once or twice, and they probably would have been asked to leave anyway - simply for constantly Standing In The Fire™.

[JMacneish]

IMO all 3rd party progs should be banned from ALL games not just MMOs..why you might ask..then here is my opinion:

 

while there is many points i could make there is just one that needs to be understood....3rd party mods no matter what website you download from CAN NOT be trusted, by that i mean the nasty software that hacks your seystem so you lose your charicters or worse

 

and we all know that sooner or later mods well be "required" to complete content so none of that Bull " dont use it if you dont want to"

 

 

so to finalise if bioware dont add the feature it shouldnt be used and if you dont like it ADAPT!

 

thankyou for reading

[FuzzPop]

Give it till the next patch maybe. It's only a matter of time before a big MMORPG getsa Damage Meter. WoW didn't have it until LATE in the games release.

 

WRONG. Damage meters existed way back in Vanilla.