Pyrotech vs. Advanced Prototype

[KainrycKarr]

As of late, I have not been able to beat good pyros on my AP. I don't really have much trouble with other classes/specs but Pyro I just have not had an answer for.

 

Anyone got some tips for me?

[Gyronamics]

Either you get the drop on them or you don't get involved.

 

They are very tough due to KO kicking in at 35% with 30% less damage taken and essentially preventing (their) death for over 8s on top of an all-instant, zero positioning rotation with a huge 10m range for a melee.

 

Your own defences are good against AOE, low damage and casters and Pyro is none of those. It also flat out does more damage.

[Brunner_Venda]

Pyro burst is a bit on the OP side currently. Well. A bit nothing, it's ridiculously easy to kill just about anyone, and usually 1v2 and even 1v3 fights can be pulled off if the other players aren't as good as you are.

 

I wouldn't take a pyro as an AP on without:

 

Shields up to sap their burst

Shoulder cannons fully loaded

Explosive fuel active for the crits

 

Then open up with everything.

Keep the bleed on, because sure as hell they're going to do the same to you with CGC.

Keep the shoulder missiles firing in between every attack (no GCD).

Try to stun them during their explosive fuel or kolto to sap their benefit from it.

Hit them with PFT if you do manage a stun they can't or don't break. Make them burn their overrides, because your second PFT they won't be able to escape.

Use your ten second hydraulic override to control your position, and escape the sweltering heat slow.

Use shields right away, sometimes AP can get a second shield up during a duel because of rebounder.

 

You have to be ridiculously good or extremely lucky to beat a good pyro as AP. I know Koozie will disagree because he's all about the paper, rock, blah blah. PT pyro doesn't have an easy counter like that.

[Ottoattack]

As of late, I have not been able to beat good pyros on my AP. I don't really have much trouble with other classes/specs but Pyro I just have not had an answer for.

 

Anyone got some tips for me?

 

The advice Brunner_Venda is on the dot. Just not to get your hopes up, equally geared and skilled pyro should when comfortably over AP. Pyro is much stronger solo, and is a counter to AP as well.

[Kooziejr]

AP Vs Pyro is very even if both have all of their cooldowns and are played properly. If shoulder cannon and explosive fuel are on cooldown then AP is in big trouble and it is very hard to win.

[KainrycKarr]

AP Vs Pyro is very even if both have all of their cooldowns and are played properly. If shoulder cannon and explosive fuel are on cooldown then AP is in big trouble and it is very hard to win.

 

Yeah my biggest problem is the opening few moves. If I can't get the damage rolling before he does it's usually over.

[Kooziejr]

Yeah my biggest problem is the opening few moves. If I can't get the damage rolling before he does it's usually over.

 

That's an issue with your gameplay that is not related to the spec. People who panic and don't do the simple things right will never win 1 v 1 against burst classes. All cooldowns active = 50/50 IMO. AP missing shoulder cannon = very very hard to win.

[KainrycKarr]

That's an issue with your gameplay that is not related to the spec. People who panic and don't do the simple things right will never win 1 v 1 against burst classes. All cooldowns active = 50/50 IMO. AP missing shoulder cannon = very very hard to win.

 

Well yeah, it is a problem with my gameplay obviously.

[Brunner_Venda]

That's an issue with your gameplay that is not related to the spec. People who panic and don't do the simple things right will never win 1 v 1 against burst classes. All cooldowns active = 50/50 IMO. AP missing shoulder cannon = very very hard to win.

 

No offense Koozie, but there's no possible way it's a 50/50 between Pyro and AP. More like 70/30 or 60/40 at the absolute best. Pyro does far more single target damage (all that matters in a 1v1), and the defenses were made for duels.

 

Fact is, pyro can strip off over half your health in three globals. They also have four rockets, and three DOTS burning on top of that. A pyro can also kite, where an AP must get into 4m range for the retractable blade. There's little AP can do except pray the pyro doesn't crit on their TD/FB/Railshot. A smart pyro is going to have pyro shields up during your burst phase, making sure that you take 6K in damage that you can't do anything about. If you do get a pyro down, they have 8 seconds of god mode kolto overload while they beat you senseless.

 

I have a few friends who i could never beat as an AP, but I wreck them pyro to pyro. The two specs aren't even close, and it's not a matter of skill.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Brunner_Venda

[Zoom_VI]

I have a few friends who i could never beat as an AP, but I wreck them pyro to pyro. The two specs aren't even close, and it's not a matter of skill.

 

That's why in my server's recent dueling tourney, the only AP PT entered in the PT/VG bracket won it all.

 

Also immolate hits harder than pyro's railshot, and energy rebounder is not to be underestimated.

[Melon_Lord]

Even *if* Immolate can hit harder than Rail Shot, there's a huge cd difference.

[Brunner_Venda]

That's why in my server's recent dueling tourney, the only AP PT entered in the PT/VG bracket won it all.

 

Also immolate hits harder than pyro's railshot, and energy rebounder is not to be underestimated.

 

Immolate hits harder, but not as often (every 6 seconds vs 15) or as consistent (eliminator set +15% crit).

 

I'm not all down on AP, and I recognize that outstanding players will excel with the spec. I'm just saying that pyro has more burst and better defenses in the duel. Two tournaments here I know of, the winner was a pyro PT.

[KainrycKarr]

While I do think Pyro has the edge over AP, I really don't think it's as huge as some in this thread have indicated.

[Kooziejr]

No offense Koozie, but there's no possible way it's a 50/50 between Pyro and AP. More like 70/30 or 60/40 at the absolute best. Pyro does far more single target damage (all that matters in a 1v1), and the defenses were made for duels.

 

Fact is, pyro can strip off over half your health in three globals. They also have four rockets, and three DOTS burning on top of that. A pyro can also kite, where an AP must get into 4m range for the retractable blade. There's little AP can do except pray the pyro doesn't crit on their TD/FB/Railshot. A smart pyro is going to have pyro shields up during your burst phase, making sure that you take 6K in damage that you can't do anything about. If you do get a pyro down, they have 8 seconds of god mode kolto overload while they beat you senseless.

 

I have a few friends who i could never beat as an AP, but I wreck them pyro to pyro. The two specs aren't even close, and it's not a matter of skill.

 

Fair nuff maybe 60-40. Don't agree with the 8 seconds of god mode being unique to pyro. Im yet to have been killed by a pyro through kolto overload in a proper 1 v 1. I have been killed by a few other classes with better burst through kolto through. It is rare but does happen. I think pyro kolto is the most overpowered thing in the game at the moment and probably needs a nerf.

[TACeMossie]

Fair nuff maybe 60-40. Don't agree with the 8 seconds of god mode being unique to pyro. Im yet to have been killed by a pyro through kolto overload in a proper 1 v 1. I have been killed by a few other classes with better burst through kolto through. It is rare but does happen. I think pyro kolto is the most overpowered thing in the game at the moment and probably needs a nerf.

 

Hey just cause you haven't been killed through KO by a pyro doesn't mean its impossible... Just need a crit rocket punch followed up with a crit rail shot at the same time as a crit thermal detonator while unloading crit shoulder cannons and having all the burns crit, While both the mainstat and power proc relics are active and the damage buff adrenal has been picked up, and an armor debuff is on the other guy

[Nezyrworks]

Fair nuff maybe 60-40. Don't agree with the 8 seconds of god mode being unique to pyro. Im yet to have been killed by a pyro through kolto overload in a proper 1 v 1. I have been killed by a few other classes with better burst through kolto through. It is rare but does happen. I think pyro kolto is the most overpowered thing in the game at the moment and probably needs a nerf.

 

This statement about Overload is true for maybe 5% (pulled from the air just to emphasize the average skill) of the PTs/VGs use it properly.

 

As for AP it's not a duel spec, and will never be as bursty as pyro, and quite frankly i like it (almost) the way it is.

 

The reason it will be worse post 2.7 is very simple, and the answer lies in buffs and nerfs. Once the jugg+mara is getting down and ranged classes will be slightly buffed there will be no point in flamethrowering vastly spread and superior ranged specs that can do their effective dps from 30m+. 30% AOE damage reduction will now be much less effective that it used to, and 4-10m effective dps will be not sufficient hunt down sorcs/mercs. Pyro on the other hand will be still in a good position because of dot resistance, good defensive cooldowns and single target effectiveness as well as bursty nature.

[Kooziejr]

Hey just cause you haven't been killed through KO by a pyro doesn't mean its impossible... Just need a crit rocket punch followed up with a crit rail shot at the same time as a crit thermal detonator while unloading crit shoulder cannons and having all the burns crit, While both the mainstat and power proc relics are active and the damage buff adrenal has been picked up, and an armor debuff is on the other guy

 

It can definitely happen. Like brunner said I'm a firm believe of paper scissors rock and think it is fair. However, the best AP will match the best Pyro. I have dueled 2 of the guys (I'm certainly not the best AP either) in the top 10 leaderboard for Solo Q PT who play pyro and beaten them 2/3 and 3/3. So thats my argument. I will provide screenshots of one of the guys if requested because he is a douchebag and on POT5 so I'm sure you all figured out who that is. On a side note i don't do solo ranked I find it boring and think its lacks skill of 4s. I only tank on my PT in ranked atm mainly for kickball 4s. Stupid Bastion dead server.

[Kooziejr]

This statement about Overload is true for maybe 5% (pulled from the air just to emphasize the average skill) of the PTs/VGs use it properly.

 

As for AP it's not a duel spec, and will never be as bursty as pyro, and quite frankly i like it (almost) the way it is.

 

The reason it will be worse post 2.7 is very simple, and the answer lies in buffs and nerfs. Once the jugg+mara is getting down and ranged classes will be slightly buffed there will be no point in flamethrowering vastly spread and superior ranged specs that can do their effective dps from 30m+. 30% AOE damage reduction will now be much less effective that it used to, and 4-10m effective dps will be not sufficient hunt down sorcs/mercs. Pyro on the other hand will be still in a good position because of dot resistance, good defensive cooldowns and single target effectiveness as well as bursty nature.

 

You misread my statement. In 1 v 1 you don't die 95% of the time through kolto. More like 5 - 10% of the time......I agree you die through kolto ALL THE TIME in warzones in AP but that is not what I originally was referring to......

[Nezyrworks]

You misread my statement. In 1 v 1 you don't die 95% of the time through kolto. More like 5 - 10% of the time......I agree you die through kolto ALL THE TIME in warzones in AP but that is not what I originally was referring to......

 

Nono. I ment that only 5-10% of the players can use it proplerly so it's not an OP issue for 95% of the time .

This was reffering to the statement that it should be nerfed, as an excuse (and yes i do agree with your statement considering that ~5% of players).

Edited April 3, 2014 by Nezyrworks

[Kooziejr]

Nono. I ment that only 5-10% of the players can use it proplerly so it's not an OP issue for 95% of the time .

This was reffering to the statement that it should be nerfed, as an excuse (and yes i do agree with your statement considering that ~5% of players).

 

I think the game should be balanced around the top 5% of players. So there

[Brunner_Venda]

Fair nuff maybe 60-40. Don't agree with the 8 seconds of god mode being unique to pyro. Im yet to have been killed by a pyro through kolto overload in a proper 1 v 1. I have been killed by a few other classes with better burst through kolto through. It is rare but does happen. I think pyro kolto is the most overpowered thing in the game at the moment and probably needs a nerf.

 

I wouldn't nerf kolto as much as doing something about the silly amount of burst. Pyro has so much burst damage that it's actually broken. It has the second lowest sustained damage in the game, and it's useless in any PVE scenarios (why should we care? Because half the paying players do). But, pyro can peel half the health off someone in 2-3 globals in PVP.

 

As for AP, it'll have plenty of use in 2.7. The frequent pulls means that sorcs can't run away. The longer Carbonize and means you can shut casting down during the stupid bastion proc. The frequent interrupts, faster run speed, and long ten second HO means you can still shut a merc down and stay in his face. I like the moves and animations of AP better than pyro to tell the truth, but I don't play it outside of regs because pyro can kill healers and win more 1v1 situations.

[Nezyrworks]

...As for AP, it'll have plenty of use in 2.7. The frequent pulls means that sorcs can't run away. The longer Carbonize and means you can shut casting down during the stupid bastion proc. The frequent interrupts, faster run speed, and long ten second HO means you can still shut a merc down and stay in his face. I like the moves and animations of AP better than pyro to tell the truth, but I don't play it outside of regs because pyro can kill healers and win more 1v1 situations.

 

I didn't said it can't, but the long cooldown on immo makes it kind of awkward and clunky comparing to pyro smooth burst phases. Besides you will hardly pull flamethrowers on more than one target and even then you will usually just become pushed or stunned.

[Brunner_Venda]

I didn't said it can't, but the long cooldown on immo makes it kind of awkward and clunky comparing to pyro smooth burst phases. Besides you will hardly pull flamethrowers on more than one target and even then you will usually just become pushed or stunned.

 

I switched back AP because of the new CC in 2.7 (sins get a new stun, ops get a root, etc) That and with shields being up more, it handles the new buffed weapon damage mechanics in 2.7 better.

 

The biggest thing I would ask for on AP, it a shorter CD on shoulder cannon. Maybe a surge bonus on rocket punch while we're at it, because 5-6k rail shot crits don't compete with pyro.

[Sosajoshua]

I switched back AP because of the new CC in 2.7 (sins get a new stun, ops get a root, etc) That and with shields being up more, it handles the new buffed weapon damage mechanics in 2.7 better.

 

The biggest thing I would ask for on AP, it a shorter CD on shoulder cannon. Maybe a surge bonus on rocket punch while we're at it, because 5-6k rail shot crits don't compete with pyro.

 

This what I think should be changed...agree or disagree at your leisure.

 

-Prototype Cylinders to increase internal and elemental damage from 1% to 3/4% (really 1% is nothing at all)

-Flame Barrage to allow for a free Rocket Punch with 20% damage boost or (xx)% surge increase

-Prototype Flamethrower either boost the slow back to 70% or add some surge increase not a lot but enough to matter

-Prototype Weapons System to include Shoulder Cannon to crit chance increase

-Power Loader to boost Shoulder Cannon damage by 20%

-Immolate has lowered cooldown time

 

Sound fair?

[Brunner_Venda]

This what I think should be changed...agree or disagree at your leisure.

 

-Prototype Cylinders to increase internal and elemental damage from 1% to 3/4% (really 1% is nothing at all)

-Flame Barrage to allow for a free Rocket Punch with 20% damage boost or (xx)% surge increase

-Prototype Flamethrower either boost the slow back to 70% or add some surge increase not a lot but enough to matter

-Prototype Weapons System to include Shoulder Cannon to crit chance increase

-Power Loader to boost Shoulder Cannon damage by 20%

-Immolate has lowered cooldown time

 

Sound fair?

 

Yes on prototype cylinders. 1% is just sad for HEGC.

Yes on flame barrage, that would make it useful.

Three stacks of PFT already gets a surge bonus AND 90% slow. What you propose is a nerf.

Lower CD over crit chance on SC would work better.

We already get what, a 15% SC damage boost over other specs?

Immolate is fine, it has the same CD as thermal detonator.