The Assassin Questions

[AGSThomas]

I will not, under any circumstance, let bioware buff our force regen. If that happens, im out of this game.

 

what's wrong with buff to our auto attack idea for PvE? Kind of makes sense to not tip the balance with other abilities that are already strong in PvP

Edited April 21, 2014 by AGSThomas

[Aetrus]

I don't think there's any simple fix for Madness in PvP or PvE. I'd like to see both DPS trees reverted to their pre2.0 variants, since I think it'd be a lot easier to fix and rebuff those without making them OP than it would to touch the current Deception tree.

[Evolixe]

That's wrong with buff to our auto attack idea for PvE? Kind of makes sense to not tip the balance with other abilities that are already strong in PvP

 

Because as it is, it's one of the most fundamental reasons why bad shadows do so much worse than good ones. And that should remain that way.

 

Buffing our force regen or removing saber strike from our rotation completely would make it easier on a stupid level.

[AGSThomas]

Because as it is, it's one of the most fundamental reasons why bad shadows do so much worse than good ones. And that should remain that way.

 

Buffing our force regen or removing saber strike from our rotation completely would make it easier on a stupid level.

 

So you want to keep the huge gap between good and bad simply because you'd like to still be easily recognized as good? What about the other people who are not forum goers, semi casuals, relatively new players, etc who like the DPS Assassin in PvE? They are being left in the dark so to speak because of the unforgiving priority system.

 

I would rate myself as above average in terms of knowing the Deception PvE priority system and executing it and I have problems breaking 3k on dummies with full 78s. Where as our Jugg smash friend who has a much much easier rotation has no problem getting up to 3800 on the dummy. So why should a raid leader bring an Assassin who has a much harder time dealing with boss mechanics plus a strict rotation when he could bring a Jugg who has more mobility, easier rotation and higher DPS?

 

Granted, I don't think we need to be easy mode and there should be incentives for good players to show better numbers, but when I have to beg my friends to take me because I'm 600 DPS lower than everyone else, there is a problem.

[Xinika]

So you want to keep the huge gap between good and bad simply because you'd like to still be easily recognized as good? What about the other people who are not forum goers, semi casuals, relatively new players, etc who like the DPS Assassin in PvE? They are being left in the dark so to speak because of the unforgiving priority system.

 

I would rate myself as above average in terms of knowing the Deception PvE priority system and executing it and I have problems breaking 3k on dummies with full 78s. Where as our Jugg smash friend who has a much much easier rotation has no problem getting up to 3800 on the dummy. So why should a raid leader bring an Assassin who has a much harder time dealing with boss mechanics plus a strict rotation when he could bring a Jugg who has more mobility, easier rotation and higher DPS?

 

Granted, I don't think we need to be easy mode and there should be incentives for good players to show better numbers, but when I have to beg my friends to take me because I'm 600 DPS lower than everyone else, there is a problem.

This is a good post. Having painfully unforgiving systems that cater to a fraction (and even then it's still not even that great) is a design flaw.

[Evolixe]

So you want to keep the huge gap between good and bad simply because you'd like to still be easily recognized as good? What about the other people who are not forum goers, semi casuals, relatively new players, etc who like the DPS Assassin in PvE? They are being left in the dark so to speak because of the unforgiving priority system.

 

So then the class is not for them. Simple as that.

It's not that difficult, you just need to have a good judgement.

 

I'm not really worried about my position among the players, given the fact that I'm all the way on top anyway.

But that doesn't mean we should make this a casual class. It should stay reknown as a highly skillful DPS class.

 

 

Granted, I don't think we need to be easy mode and there should be incentives for good players to show better numbers, but when I have to beg my friends to take me because I'm 600 DPS lower than everyone else, there is a problem.

 

That's you being the problem though. Since the good Shadows are doing 3.4-3.5k and the top is even nearing or getting 3.6k on the dummies. Improve yourself or die trying.

 

My team is more like begging me to come along.. simply because I'm one of the few who can actually pull those numbers on a boss as well. And I'm regulary beating the best Gunslingers we can find on ToFN, depending on the boss.

[Evolixe]

This is a good post. Having painfully unforgiving systems that cater to a fraction (and even then it's still not even that great) is a design flaw.

 

I disagree. If it would change, I would very quickly lose interest.

 

The unforgiveness makes it so challenging. Makes you want to keep pushing even if you think you're already above and beyond boundaries.

[Xinika]

I disagree. If it would change, I would very quickly lose interest.

 

The unforgiveness makes it so challenging. Makes you want to keep pushing even if you think you're already above and beyond boundaries.

That's great you think of it that way but I'm afraid that's a bit selfish. From a business perspective, catering to a marginal 0.01% of the playerbase of a class would be a loss. Not to mention, why would I have one class painfully hard for the majority?

[AGSThomas]

That's great you think of it that way but I'm afraid that's a bit selfish. From a business perspective, catering to a marginal 0.01% of the playerbase of a class would be a loss. Not to mention, why would I have one class painfully hard for the majority?

 

It's not even just from a business perspective. Exi, what do you care if other shadows are doing more DPS, as long as they aren't doing as much as you?

 

It's fine that you think the class is not for them, but who are you to say that? If they like the class and want to play it, should they be punished just because they chose a class a few people want to keep elite? Seems silly to me.

Edited April 21, 2014 by AGSThomas

[sithBracer]

I disagree. If it would change, I would very quickly lose interest.

 

The unforgiveness makes it so challenging. Makes you want to keep pushing even if you think you're already above and beyond boundaries.

 

Might I suggest flappy birds? I think you would love it. My record is 29 so far.

[Xinika]

I should also add - I don't find this class challenging at all. As a matter of fact, I find Carnage Marauder more taxing than Deception. Maybe on release this class had a higher learning curve than the others. Now? Not at all. It's medium at best in terms of difficulty and an absolute joke in comparison to something like my Warrior from S8 on WoW. Which is also ironic, considering Blizzard has made Warriors into tunnelvisionezmode since MoP. Edited April 21, 2014 by Xinika

[Evolixe]

I should also add - I don't find this class challenging at all. As a matter of fact, I find Carnage Marauder more taxing than Deception. Maybe on release this class had a higher learning curve than the others. Now? Not at all. It's medium at best in terms of difficulty and an absolute joke in comparison to something like my Warrior from S8 on WoW. Which is also ironic, considering Blizzard has made Warriors into tunnelvisionezmode since MoP.

 

In comparison to WoW none of the classes here are any challenging. So lets not go there.

[Evolixe]

That's great you think of it that way but I'm afraid that's a bit selfish. From a business perspective, catering to a marginal 0.01% of the playerbase of a class would be a loss. Not to mention, why would I have one class painfully hard for the majority?

 

Selfish? Not at all, if people don't have what it takes.. they should roll another class. Not dumb down the class.

 

If we dumb it down now, you'll be the first to complain that it's too easy. Hell you already are.

 

Might I suggest flappy birds? I think you would love it. My record is 29 so far.

 

No, you may not.

[Xinika]

In comparison to WoW none of the classes here are any challenging. So lets not go there.

I just think... others should have the chance to succeed regardless of how much 'worse' they are. There should be a skillcap, of course, but I don't believe it should remain in such a way to absolutely shut out others from succeeding at reachable levels.

 

Selfish? Not at all, if people don't have what it takes.. they should roll another class. Not dumb down the class.

 

If we dumb it down now, you'll be the first to complain that it's too easy. Hell you already are.

It is easy for me. Perhaps too easy, but *I* do not matter over the class itself and whom it should cater for. In the end, I'd prefer a working Assassin class for everyone with the obvious skillcaps that allow more talented players to succeed at a marginal level. It's conformist but I don't really see a point of fighting it. The game itself is catered to casualization.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Xinika

[sithBracer]

No, you may not.

 

Yes I may. Now beat my record!!!

[keimox]

Since the good Shadows are doing 3.4-3.5k and the top is even nearing or getting 3.6k on the dummies. Improve yourself or die trying.

 

My team is more like begging me to come along.. simply because I'm one of the few who can actually pull those numbers on a boss as well. And I'm regulary beating the best Gunslingers we can find on ToFN, depending on the boss.

 

Then slingers in ToFn are quite bad. There are several snipers, juggernauts and other classes in top 50 parses in DF/DP HM from ToFN. Only shadow I saw was m-knight aka.buffshadows. rofl.

 

And IMO biggest problem with deception is that the RNG affects too much for DPS. It just affects too much, more than few misclicks and other human errors.

[Evolixe]

Then slingers in ToFn are quite bad. There are several snipers, juggernauts and other classes in top 50 parses in DF/DP HM from ToFN. Only shadow I saw was m-knight aka.buffshadows. rofl.

 

And IMO biggest problem with deception is that the RNG affects too much for DPS. It just affects too much, more than few misclicks and other human errors.

 

If that's what you like to think. The fact is, the best parses people get is far from what they do regulary on a boss.

On a regular basis, I'm able to keep up and even surpass.

 

If by that you want to conclude the slingers are bad, then well.. by all means.

You're wrong, but you won't admit that anyway.

[brainpsyk]

I'm not going to reply anymore tonight, way too tired. But you're wrong.

 

Maybe. But it's up to you to prove it

 

And if you Discharge > Shock > VS > VS > Maul > Shock you can use blackout almost as soon as dark embrace is gone. Without overcapping.

 

True, but what happens at the ~36 second mark? You're out of force again, and Blackout isn't available until 51 seconds.

 

I will not, under any circumstance, let bioware buff our force regen. If that happens, im out of this game.

 

Quit being childish & selfish. You wrote the guides on Dulfy to help people, not limit them. You have valuable inputs, keep it constructive. We have a problem with the class, not the players.

 

If BW was to change Deception so Discharge is free at 3 stacks, instead of using Saber Strikes, that is skill, not RNG. Why? Because using Discharge at 2 stacks and you're Saber Striking. Use Maul too early or too late, or use VS an extra time and you're Saber Striking. Again, that's skill, not poor class design and not bad RNG.

 

I'm not going to reply anymore tonight, way too tired. But you're wrong.

 

Maybe. But it's up to you to prove it. Post your parses where you use an ability every 1.5 seconds, but are never using Saber Strike. It's that simple.

 

 

How would you apply this to Madness? Both our DPS specs need an increase in DPS output so I'm curious how this would also fix our right tree.

 

I've been trying to come up with something for Madness/Balance, but modeling out Saber Strikes is stymieing me at the moment. We have to adjust the number of Force Technique hits, durations on Discharge and Sever Force, and the number of double-strike (Thrash) hits.

 

Looking at the top parse, M-knightrider used Saber Strike 42 times (114 hits). That's 600+ force we need to make up to drop Saber Strike, and that's just for the Double Strikes. Rippling Force already hit 106 times for 212 force. Trying to boost that would mean boosting Rippling Force from 2 force to ~6 force. Then what do you use for a filler, because we're boosting our DPS with other abilities?

 

We only need to shave M-knightrider's parse from 275 seconds down to ~262 to match the top parse, or 8 GCDs. Maybe boosting Rippling force from 2 to 3 regen. It's all just a sliver here or there. But that's just napkin math

[DarthSpekulatius]

I have a question, three actually.

 

1. did you consider 2.0 as a dumping down of balance/madness?

2. Do you think it was an improvement?

3. do you really want to do the same to infiltration/deception?

Edited April 21, 2014 by DarthSpekulatius

[Aetrus]

I have a question, three actually.

 

1. did you consider 2.0 as a dumping down of balance/madness?

2. Do you think it was an improvement?

3. do you really want to do the same to infiltration/deception?

 

2.0 dumbed down Deception. It gutted Madness.

[Xinika]

I have a question, three actually.

 

1. did you consider 2.0 as a dumping down of balance/madness?

2. Do you think it was an improvement?

3. do you really want to do the same to infiltration/deception?

Deception was never difficult and it only got dumber. Madness was the only spec that required a higher skill cap.

[brainpsyk]

I have a question, three actually.

 

1. did you consider 2.0 as a dumping down of balance/madness?

2. Do you think it was an improvement?

3. do you really want to do the same to infiltration/deception?

 

One person's dumbing down is another's fun.

 

Really, it doesn't matter. What was, was. What is, is. The question is, where are we at, and how do we move forward.

 

Right now, I consider Balance/Madness to be boring, and more of an eyesight challenge than a rotation/skill/gearing challenge. Infiltration/Deception is a heck of a lot of fun, except when my DPS is artificially and arbitrarily nerfed.

 

If we take Saber Strike out of Infiltration/Deception, we still have the RNG on the buildup of Breaching Shadows/Static Charge. We still have the proc on Shadow Strike/Maul. There is still the gearing optimization question. So there is still plenty of space for skill and effort.

 

I would love for Balance/Madness to use another ability besides just Double Strike/Thrash & Saber Strike. A Project/Shock would make it slightly more interesting. Personally, I'm against Maul in Madness because I like the fact that I don't have to be behind the target all the time, especially when I'm on add duty. I think a better idea is something like a proc that makes Force Lightning cost nothing. You get 3 seconds of regen (almost replaces 2 Saber Strike hits), and would boost our DPS.

 

So there is still plenty of room out there for changes, without revamping the class, no matter which way we go. But the first step in any solution is to identify the root problem (5 Whys).

[MKnightRider]

Personally, I'm against Maul in Madness because I like the fact that I don't have to be behind the target all the time, especially when I'm on add duty. I think a better idea is something like a proc that makes Force Lightning cost nothing. You get 3 seconds of regen (almost replaces 2 Saber Strike hits), and would boost our DPS.

 

I personally don't like the idea of ever having Force Lightning being a rotational move for either of our dps specs. I much prefer to be able to be completely mobile. I still think it should be a proc for both Maul and Shock, but make it give Maul a buff to damage enough that it is more preferable, but in the case that you can't get behind the target or you're out of melee range you have Shock as a backup.

[MasterFeign]

Are you using Shock in Madness?

 

Stop doing that. You'll have plentyful force.

 

I haven't used the spec in a while, though last time I did, even using a number of thrashes to proc Raze was taxing, but despite how the spec currently works, I think that any spec that limits moves, especially main ones, to be unused, doesn't make sense. I mean you'll get one or two side moves in various other specs from other classes, but things like maul and shock shouldn't not be used.

 

Thus the problem is two-fold, not only is it a force management issue but as others have said, boring, because of how linear it's played.

Edited April 21, 2014 by MasterFeign

[Xinika]

...but as others have said, boring, because of how linear it's played.

That is a bit subjective. Some people may like the new rotation. (Shrug)

 

I think what's most important is to see the specs put up higher numbers. Whether that comes from improvements to force, charge fixes, increased critical rates or whatever - I believe this should be the focal point. How easy or hard it is, if it's 'cool' or whatever, can be tackled later.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Xinika