Faction Imbalance Caused By Offhand Hits + Talents. Commando Assaul vs Mercenary Pyro

[Gyronamics]

Commando Assault and Mercenary Pyro are mirror trees

 

There is a 6s DoT applied by ranged attacks called Plasma Cell/Combustible Gas Cylinder

 

Use of High Impact Bolt/Railshot refreshes this DoT on impact for a fresh new tick of the DoT and restarting at 6s again.

 

This is what happens when the SINGLE hit of a High Impact Bolt from a Commando Assault player hits the DoT:

 

06:25:47.832 Hotwired's Plasma Cell adds effect Burning (Tech) to Torvix Cannoneer.

06:25:47.833 Hotwired's Burning (Tech) hits Torvix Cannoneer for 445 elemental damage, causing 445 threat.

06:25:49.270 Hotwired activates High Impact Bolt.

06:25:49.270 Hotwired spends 16 energy.

06:25:49.665 Hotwired gains 8 energy.

06:25:49.666 Hotwired's Burning (Tech) hits Torvix Cannoneer for 445 elemental damage, causing 445 threat.

06:25:49.831 Hotwired's High Impact Bolt hits Torvix Cannoneer for 4500 energy damage, causing 4500 threat.

 

And this is what happens when the DOUBLE hit of a Railshot from a Mercenary Mainhand then the Offhand hits the DoT:

 

06:22:39.326 Mercenary's Combustible Gas Cylinder adds effect Burning (Tech) to Exchange Hoodlum.

06:22:39.326 Mercenary's Burning (Tech) hits Exchange Hoodlum for 445 elemental damage, causing 445 threat.

06:22:40.907 Mercenary activates Rail Shot.

06:22:40.907 Mercenary spends 16 energy.

06:22:41.501 Mercenary gains 8 energy.

06:22:41.502 Mercenary's Burning (Tech) hits Exchange Hoodlum for 445 elemental damage, causing 445 threat.

06:22:41.502 Mercenary's Rail Shot hits Exchange Hoodlum for 4500 energy damage, causing 4500 threat.

06:22:41.502 Mercenary's Burning (Tech) hits Exchange Hoodlum for 445 elemental damage, causing 445 threat.

06:22:41.502 Mercenary's Rail Shot hits Exchange Hoodlum for 450 energy damage, causing 450 threat.

 

We clearly see that the weaker offhand hit functions exactly like the mainhand hit and refreshes the DoT a second time in the same milisecond for one extra tick of damage more than the Commando will get.

 

 

This "double hitting" from offhand hits goes further.

 

The Plasma Cell/Combustible Gas Cylinder DoT is applied through Ranged hits.

 

Each hit has a 34% chance to proc the DoT.

 

If you can see where this is going you'll realise that all the Mercenary ranged casts have potentially double the hits of the Commando because of the offhand.

 

This results in a more consistent and reliable proc of the DoT which translates into more damage.

 

 

 

This is not a new thing, because of the Offhand acting like a Mainhand Hit when talents are applied it used to recover action points for Mercenaries twice, once for mainhand and once for offhand.

 

That was fixed in http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/2.4.2/10292013

 

But the fix did not correct the offhand still performing other talents like a mainhand hit.

 

 

 

It would improve matters if these on hit effects which unbalance the intended mirror system were removed or disabled for the offhand.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Gyronamics

[TaitWatson]

Thanks for your post! I'll pass this along.

 

-tw

[znihilist]

Thanks for your post! I'll pass this along.

 

-tw

 

Tait here is some math on the issue from an earlier post of mine:

 

 

It is not additive, it is a bit more complicated than that.

If the offhand hit pass the accuracy check then power shot have a 69.75% of proccing raishot (55% of not proccing on the mainhand times 45% of proccing on the offhand + 45% of proccing on the mainhand first).

But if you were to take the offhand accuracy into consideration (77%), then it is a 64% chance.

 

If you have multiple Powershot in a row the probability will go like this:

64% on the first hit, 87% chance of not proccing on the first but on the second, 95% of not proccing on the first or second but on the third, 98% of not proccing on the first, second, or third hit but on the forth, etc etc.

 

If the offhand didn't matter it would be like this:

45% on the first hit, 69% chance of not proccing on the first but on the second, 83% of not proccing on the first or second but on the third, 90% of not proccing on the first, second, or third hit but on the forth, etc etc.

 

 

The none bugged version (or Commando) you need on average 2.22 PS' to proc railshot, in the bugged version you need on average 1.44 PS' to proc railshot.

[Elite-Force]

ah and while your on it, what about making kolto missile hit as fast as kolto bomb? i dont got exact numbers but there is a fairly big difference in the time you activate this ability and the heal tick.

 

Also i would like the fix on the merc, beside i am playing one myself. This is still a great dissadvantage for commandos and should be removed asap. It should bring merc more in line of the other classes again.

[Glower]

Heh, all mercs with 2 blasters by now, why bother with 2 blasters if offhand is useless?...

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

 

GIVE ME A RIFLE THEN!!!

 

 

Btw! I think merc attacks with increased chances of failure/resist because of 2-hands attacks. And also we have less powerful main hand attacks. Or am i wrong?

Edited March 20, 2014 by Glower

[g_land]

How about the one where when a commando gets revived they start at 8 ammo as opposed to mercs who start at 50 heat. I assume someone forgot to change the code when they converted the ammo system.

[Gyronamics]

Why are you stacking other legitimate issues in this thread?

 

Make a new thread so it can be recognised.

[Magsel]

We clearly see that the weaker offhand hit functions exactly like the mainhand hit and refreshes the DoT a second time in the same milisecond for one extra tick of damage more than the Commando will get.

This "double hitting" from offhand hits goes further.

The Plasma Cell/Combustible Gas Cylinder DoT is applied through Ranged hits.

Each hit has a 34% chance to proc the DoT.

If you can see where this is going you'll realise that all the Mercenary ranged casts have potentially double the hits of the Commando because of the offhand.

This results in a more consistent and reliable proc of the DoT which translates into more damage.

 

LIES! ALL LIES!!

[BobaFaceroll]

Tait here is some math on the issue from an earlier post of mine:

 

*snip proc chance comparison*

 

 

You never need more than two skill uses on either class to proc a reset.

 

Why are you stacking other legitimate issues in this thread?

 

Make a new thread so it can be recognised.

 

^

[Gyronamics]

LIES! ALL LIES!!

 

Your protestations fall on deaf ears.

 

Every Merc parse has a full 100dps+ more on their CGC.

[znihilist]

You never need more than two skill uses on either class to proc a reset.

Yes, but a merc requires on average 1 less powershot than commandos, which translates in 1 GCD shorter effective CD on railshot and that raises the DPS and creates additional imbalance.

[Gyronamics]

Whoa whoa whoa.

 

Don't post to inform if you are not 1000% informed yourself about how the proc works.

 

To proc you are required to use CB or FA twice, that is the cold fact.

 

The first one happens WITHIN the 6s ICD and will never proc anything.

 

The second one is timed so that the proc point (end of CD cast, start of FA channel) is just after the 6s ICD and that will proc.

 

I can't stand this mental rumour of cumulative chances, it's totally wrong.

[znihilist]

Edit: This post can be ignored, huge misconception derailed it.

 

I can't stand this mental rumour of cumulative chances, it's totally wrong.

 

You have to be confusing cumulative chances (like how people think probability works if I have a 50% chance to do "X" and If I do it twice then I must get it!), and what I presented above.

(For the record my PhD was on doing statistical data analysis for a scientific experiment, so I do have credentials to speak on this issue.)

 

let's say you have a mirror and you have a 10% chance to break it every time you throw a stone at it, what's the chance of it being broken if you threw 1 stone at it ? 5 stones in a row ? 10 stones in a row?

 

 

If you threw one stone at it, then it is easy 10% chance.

What will happen if you want to throw 5 stones at it ?

You throw stone 1, either it breaks or it doesn't break. If the mirror breaks test is over, if it doesn't you throw stone 2 and etc.

It is possible for you to get a the total % chance of the mirror to break.

The set of events that allow for the mirror to break is this:

Stone 1 breaks it or Stone 1 doesn't break it but Stone 2 does or neither Stones 1 or 2 breaks it but Stone 3 does or None of Stones 1, 2, or 3 breaks it but 4 does or none of the first four stones breaks but Stone 5 does.

 

These statements above correspond to a probability estimate.

Stone 1 breaks the mirror: 10%

 

Stone 1 doesn't break it but Stone 2: 90% of it not being broken by stone 1 and 10% being broken by stone 2: 90%*10% = 9%

 

Neither Stones 1 or 2 breaks it but Stone 3 does: 90% of it not being broken by stone 1 and 90% of it not being broken by stone 2 and 10% being broken by stone 3: 90%*90%*10% = 8.1%

 

None of Stones 1, 2, or 3 breaks it but 4 does: 90% of it not being broken by stone 1 and 90% of it not being broken by stone 2 and 90% of it not being broken by stone 3 and 10% being broken by stone 4: 90%*90%*90%*10% = 7.29%

 

None of the first four stones breaks but Stone 5 does: 90% of it not being broken by stone 1 and 90% of it not being broken by stone 2 and 90% of it not being broken by stone 3 and 90% of it not being broken by stone 4 and 10% being broken by stone 5: 90%*90%*90%*90%*10% = 6.521%

 

 

So what is the probability of the mirror being broken without caring which stone breaks it : 40.951% (Sum of the different events that leads to the same situation)

 

There is a difference between saying : I didn't get the proc (40%) the last time, so now I have 80% to proc it, and what I presented above.

 

 

From what you have seen above you can estimate the number of stone throws you need on average to break the mirror.

If you apply the same thing for the RS proc, mercs need on average less tries than a Commando to proc the ability (name conventions for the two factions in mind of course).

 

Just because you can manipulate the GCD and make it so that the end of your ability ends right after the 6 seconds ICD it doesn't mean what I posted is wrong (we are talking about different things there).

Edited March 20, 2014 by znihilist

[BobaFaceroll]

It's not that your math is wrong. We understand statistics, although as a PhD you're above and beyond the normal forum poster. The simple fact is this trait ignores statistics and guarantees a proc 100% of the time.

 

Any two uses of Power Shot/Charged Bolts or Unload/Full Auto when you are not inside the 6sec ICD of Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator will proc a reset of Rail Shot/High Impart Bolt. The first use can be during the 6sec ICD and it will still guarantee a proc so long as the second skill is used when the ICD is done. Statistics may play a role on the chance to proc on the first skill use (so long as you're not on cool down) but the second one, whether or not you're a Mercenary or a Commando, will proc 100% of the time.

 

It's cumulative, and it's undocumented, but that's how the trait works. Two uses, for either class, always procs. It's been tested and proven, and it's been the core of the Pyro/Assault rotation for a long, long time. Chance has nothing to do with it.

[Gyronamics]

As above I am aware of how chance stacks but chance doesn't come into it.

 

I thought you were talking about proc chance on the CGC because that really is chance but since you're making it clear you're not then I had to say it was incorrect.

[znihilist]

As above I am aware of how chance stacks but chance doesn't come into it.

 

I thought you were talking about proc chance on the CGC because that really is chance but since you're making it clear you're not then I had to say it was incorrect.

 

I just exchanged a PM with Bobafaceroll, I never actually knew there was a bug with the CB/PS proc.

My tests were centered around using CB/PS after the 6 seconds ICD is over (or activating the first one so it takes effect after the ICD is over). To be honest I did find them to statistically smaller than what I have calculated (which was intriguing).

However, as I just said to Bobafaceroll. If this bug is fixed (the Ionic Accelerator proc) Mercs are still going to hold an advantage over Commandos because of the OH.

 

Sorry about that!

 

Edit: Can you PM me any tests done on that ? I want to check for certain things.

Edited March 20, 2014 by znihilist

[BobaFaceroll]

To be clear...I didn't say it was a bug. I said that was how the trait behaved. It's behaved that way for so long that I expect it's intentional. People spent a lot of energy asking for Curtain of Fire in Gunnery to behave as reliably as Ionic Accelerator does for Assault. If Assault was bugged someone would have said "Oh jeez, that really isn't supposed to be reliable. Let's fix that right now!'

[znihilist]

To be clear...I didn't say it was a bug. I said that was how the trait behaved. It's behaved that way for so long that I expect it's intentional. People spent a lot of energy asking for Curtain of Fire in Gunnery to behave as reliably as Ionic Accelerator does for Assault. If Assault was bugged someone would have said "Oh jeez, that really isn't supposed to be reliable. Let's fix that right now!'

 

Fair enough.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Does this bug apply to Gunslinger vs. Sniper as well ?

[Gyronamics]

Does this bug apply to Gunslinger vs. Sniper as well ?

 

Doubt it.

 

This issue is from on-hit effects which are doubled by the offhand.

 

What on-hit effects do Slingers and Snipers have?

[Kinslayer]

Doubt it.

 

This issue is from on-hit effects which are doubled by the offhand.

 

What on-hit effects do Slingers and Snipers have?

 

Both classes have an ability which increases their accuracy by 30% for 10 seconds which obviously benefits Gunslingers more than Snipers because it means their Offhand attacks won't miss during this period. Given it's on a 2 minute cooldown it's not as obvious as this current disparity but it does mean that an equally geared and skilled (and lucky) Gunslinger will always beat a Sniper.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Kinslayer