Marauder Top 3 Answers!

[Aetrus]

1) Annihilation needs DoT protection. Way more than Madness did. That one fix would be a huge boost in PvP. Priority #1.

2) Annihilation doesn't feel unique. The self-heals aren't big enough to be impactful and the ramp up time to deal max damage isn't rewarding. Someone suggested adding a DoT to Annihilate. I think that's a perfect solution.

3) Carnage doesn't need some kind of 'CC protection.' Its a bursty risk-reward spec. If you want guaranteed burst with no thought, play an assassin. If you get CC'd during Gore continuously, you're being too obvious or not microing well enough. The Slaughter proc does need to be smarter, though. Or less RNG dependent. Something.

4) Smash is OP and has been OP since I started playing the game (since 1.7.) I'm glad its being nerfed.

5) Now that BW has finally nerfed Smash, a reversion to the Undying Rage change would be really nice. Since, you know...it was Smash that was OP, not Undying Rage. No one cried about Carnage or Anni players in arenas.

6) BW doesn't care, they probably aren't even reading this thread anymore, so everything I just typed was a pointless exercise in rhetoric. Oh well.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Aetrus

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

1) Annihilation needs DoT protection. Way more than Madness did. That one fix would be a huge boost in PvP. Priority #1.

 

Completely Agree

 

2) Annihilation doesn't feel unique. The self-heals aren't big enough to be impactful and the ramp up time to deal max damage isn't rewarding. Someone suggested adding a DoT to Annihilate. I think that's a perfect solution.

 

Agree for the most part. I think that Annihlate stacks should increase DoT damage by 2% per stack, that would help the ramp-up time, that and using Frenzy should grant 4 stacks of Annihilate.

 

3) Carnage doesn't need some kind of 'CC protection.' Its a bursty risk-reward spec. If you want guaranteed burst with no thought, play an assassin. If you get CC'd during Gore continuously, you're being too obvious or not microing well enough. The Slaughter proc does need to be smarter, though. Or less RNG dependent. Something.

 

Agree for the most part. Gore should have atleast 2 seconds of complete immunity to all controlling effects and physics, and Slaughter should not proc when Gore is not on Cooldown, simple fixes.

 

4) Smash is OP and has been OP since I started playing the game (since 1.7.) I'm glad its being nerfed.

 

Smash was OP, only in PvP. in PvE now, smash hits like a wet noodle. it NEEDS a Single target burst increase in DPS.

 

5) Now that BW has finally nerfed Smash, a reversion to the Undying Rage change would be really nice. Since, you know...it was Smash that was OP, not Undying Rage. No one cried about Carnage or Anni players in arenas.

 

Undying Rage should be changed to 4 seconds of FULL immunity, not just 99%... That would fix it, and make the health an up-front thing, not after the duration...

 

6) BW doesn't care, they probably aren't even reading this thread anymore, so everything I just typed was a pointless exercise in rhetoric. Oh well.

 

This game has been failing since 2.0, Bioware's trying to milk more money out. and soon enough they will have to cave in if they want more money and appeal to the wishes of the community. Then and only then will this game bring in loads of money, if Bioware would just listen to the community, this game would make billions more in $$$ every month.

 

 

Responses in Bold

[Vodrin]

To everyone saying that watchman/annihilation needs DoT protection, when is the last time you saw your DoT's cleansed by anyone other than an op/sniper rolling? I have been experimenting with a watchman build on occasion just to do something different and I have almost never had a sorc or other healer cleans my DoT's. Stack buildup is a far bigger issue in my opinion. Give the class a way to front load stance and merciless/annihilator stacks and I think PvP performance would be fine. Making the DoT's uncleansable would only be a real buff against op healers, although that would admittedly be helpful.

 

Also, any CC immunity with Gore/PS would make carnage/combat extremely OP. I currently can get a guaranteed kill if I get whitebarred and am not getting focused by at least 3 enemies. There is literally nothing that can be done to stop me short of bursting me down first. Giving CC immunity during burst windows would simply allow be to do that much more frequently and would frankly lead to forum QQ that would make the smash QQ look like nothing.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Vodrin

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Responses in Bold

 

My only response is to the Smash needs a single target buff in PVE comment. If Smash had a significant single target burst increase (which would in turn lead to higher sustained damage) what would be the incentive of taking a Carnage or Annihilation Marauder in PVE? It would make it more like the broken Dotsmash spec that needs to be killed with fire. If a spec could bring both massive AoE damage (Smash) and equal or even slightly worse singnle target sustain damage, why in the world would anyone take someone over Smash for DF and DP where there are significant amounts of fights requiring both good AoE and sustained damage (including single target burst phases). There is a reason why classes such as Advanced Prototype Powertechs and Engineering Snipers lack in single target damage if you exclude the roll in place bug and bosses with enormous hitboxes. This is because they bring the advantage of unparalleled AoE damage while suffering for fights requiring only single target damage. So no, a single target DPS buff to Smash is unnecessary and would destroy the PVE balance end of things.

[Vodrin]

My only response is to the Smash needs a single target buff in PVE comment. If Smash had a significant single target burst increase (which would in turn lead to higher sustained damage) what would be the incentive of taking a Carnage or Annihilation Marauder in PVE? It would make it more like the broken Dotsmash spec that needs to be killed with fire. If a spec could bring both massive AoE damage (Smash) and equal or even slightly worse singnle target sustain damage, why in the world would anyone take someone over Smash for DF and DP where there are significant amounts of fights requiring both good AoE and sustained damage (including single target burst phases). There is a reason why classes such as Advanced Prototype Powertechs and Engineering Snipers lack in single target damage if you exclude the roll in place bug and bosses with enormous hitboxes. This is because they bring the advantage of unparalleled AoE damage while suffering for fights requiring only single target damage. So no, a single target DPS buff to Smash is unnecessary and would destroy the PVE balance end of things.

 

Smash definitely does not need a single target burst increase. What it needs is some tools for better single target sustained damage without sacrificing much single target burst. Right now it's sustained damage is just too far behind the other two specs to make the little bit of extra burst worthwhile.

[Raansu]

Smash definitely does not need a single target burst increase. What it needs is some tools for better single target sustained damage without sacrificing much single target burst. Right now it's sustained damage is just too far behind the other two specs to make the little bit of extra burst worthwhile.

 

No but it needs its aoe to count as single target in pvp else the spec is going to be incredibly worthless since its burst only works on one target now and everyone and their mom has 30% aoe DR talents.

[Cordorian]

Smash definitely does not need a single target burst increase. What it needs is some tools for better single target sustained damage without sacrificing much single target burst. Right now it's sustained damage is just too far behind the other two specs to make the little bit of extra burst worthwhile.

 

PvE wise smash is kind of useful killing adds as it is...and in PvE the AoE is not getting nerfed. You have to respec depending on the boss fight anyway, since some are more anni or carnage friendly, so smash absolutely has its role in PvE.

 

I am wondering how sustained buff to smash would work, since if you buff the hightened power window after smash, you would simply make it burstier. Out side that smash relies on basic marauder/warrior attacks, if you both those the other tree benefit from that even more (not that i would oppose it:P).

[TheCourier-]

PvE wise smash is kind of useful killing adds as it is...and in PvE the AoE is not getting nerfed. You have to respec depending on the boss fight anyway, since some are more anni or carnage friendly, so smash absolutely has its role in PvE.

 

No PVE fight is unfriendly to carnage spec. Most PVE fights are unfriendly to annihilation spec. Brontes is extremely carnage friendly (bursting fingers and mobs).

Edited April 4, 2014 by TheCourier-

[shadowsjudgement]

Smash definitely does not need a single target burst increase. What it needs is some tools for better single target sustained damage without sacrificing much single target burst. Right now it's sustained damage is just too far behind the other two specs to make the little bit of extra burst worthwhile.

 

My sustained in dotsmash is just fine.. What I find the downside of dotsmash is, however, is the definite lack of survivability/team utility. Dotsmash may have the highest dps, but compared to anni/carnage, it offers the team nothing and has minimal survivability.

[Mr_Fuzzle]

My sustained in dotsmash is just fine.. What I find the downside of dotsmash is, however, is the definite lack of survivability/team utility. Dotsmash may have the highest dps, but compared to anni/carnage, it offers the team nothing and has minimal survivability.

 

This discussion was about Rage not Dotsmash. For the record, Dotsmash has access to reduced c/d on Undying Rage along with increased damage from Cloak of Pain and longer duration. This is on top of the flat damage reduction from the tree and stance and the same cooldowns as any other marauder. While their utility may be lacking (they can still use Bloodthirst btw) compared to Annihilation, they have solid survivability.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Mr_Fuzzle

[shadowsjudgement]

No PVE fight is unfriendly to carnage spec. Most PVE fights are unfriendly to annihilation spec. Brontes is extremely carnage friendly (bursting fingers and mobs).

But it seems that more and more fights are smash friendly, seeing as there are many adds that spawn and what not. And the fights that are carnage friendly, if RNG is against you, your burst is pitiful..

[shadowsjudgement]

This discussion was about Rage not Dotsmash. For the record, Dotsmash has access to reduced c/d on Undying Rage along with increased damage from Cloak of Pain and longer duration. This is on top of the flat damage reduction from the tree and stance and the same cooldowns as any other marauder. While their utility may be lacking (they can still use Bloodthirst btw) compared to Annihilation, they have solid survivability.

Cloak of pain's duration remains the same (capped at 30s), UD you generally do not want to use.. So it is not important, and the shii-cho damage reduction only applies if your defense chance procs, and that defense chance is sitting at a lowly 5%.

So their survivability is pretty damn low, their only means of survival is killing the baddie first.

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Cloak of pain's duration remains the same (capped at 30s), UD you generally do not want to use.. So it is not important, and the shii-cho damage reduction only applies if your defense chance procs, and that defense chance is sitting at a lowly 5%.

So their survivability is pretty damn low, their only means of survival is killing the baddie first.

 

That's not how damage reduction works. Defense is avoidance of a melee/ranged attack whereas damage reduction is kind of self explanatory.

[Aetrus]

Dotsmash may have the highest dps, but compared to anni/carnage, it offers the team nothing and has minimal survivability.

 

Watchman My homie with the flex.

[Raansu]

My sustained in dotsmash is just fine.. What I find the downside of dotsmash is, however, is the definite lack of survivability/team utility. Dotsmash may have the highest dps, but compared to anni/carnage, it offers the team nothing and has minimal survivability.

 

The discussion isn't about hybrids, which honestly shouldn't even be allowed to begin with. I'm highly against hybrids being allowed let alone viable. Personally I would of done what WoW did before the skill redesign which was locking you to one tree till you reached the capstone ability then you could put points in other trees to prevent hybrids.

[shadowsjudgement]

Watchman My homie with the flex.

Whoever did this I must talk to.. Lol..

[Emperor-Norton]

Watchman My homie with the flex.

His parse isn't eligible for the World Leaderboard (but that is not to say Sound is cheating, because he isn't). That method is based on having a "precasted" OS. Basically have three stacks of the ability before the fight starts, apply two stacks, then renew the ability to refresh three stacks on your bar (which gets rid of the 1 remaining stack you had). Effectively you build up to three on the target normally, but you then have 2 stacks in reserve (so to speak). When 3 stacks goes away the other two apply, and OS comes off CD right before the previous one expires at 2 stacks. Put very simply, he or she is rigging the system to get an extra tick of OS at 2 stacks. That method requires you to use OS before the fight starts, requires precise timing (you have a 6 second Window where you must pull) or makes you stop attacking for 10 seconds, and fails when you have to target switch , can't attack on the GCD, or the target dies.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Emperor-Norton

[Benirons]

Clever, but such a sham that one needs to resolve to such dirty tricks (which well cant really be reasonably replicated in an operation environment) to boost marauder dps to WHERE IT SHOULD BE.

 

I just feel like non-pure dps classes do more dmg than pure dps classes nowadays. It just does not feel right to me.

 

This is why both acs need to resort to "hybrid builds" cause the other single target specs r just falling behind due to crippling rng, or just plain not enough dmg output.

 

E.g. jugs were quite literally nowhere, all of a sudden boom. I sincerely hope marauders get a comprehensive overhaul for some refining touches.

 

P.S: I hate using assault so much! Permanently swapped to pure rage, till some comprehensive changes.

[Bugattiboy]

Clever, but such a sham that one needs to resolve to such dirty tricks (which well cant really be reasonably replicated in an operation environment) to boost marauder dps to WHERE IT SHOULD BE.

Well, when there is **** development there are dirty tricks.

 

I just feel like non-pure dps classes do more dmg than pure dps classes nowadays. It just does not feel right to me.

It doesn't feel right to anyone except EA and the people playing the OP specs.

 

This is why both acs need to resort to "hybrid builds" cause the other single target specs r just falling behind due to crippling rng, or just plain not enough dmg output.

See above.

 

E.g. jugs were quite literally nowhere, all of a sudden boom. I sincerely hope marauders get a comprehensive overhaul for some refining touches.

They weren't nowhere. Vegenance was the like the Carnage of Juggs. RNG Dependant. Then EA removed that and they do more damage than Marauders.

 

P.S: I hate using assault so much! Permanently swapped to pure rage, till some comprehensive changes.

Have fun in rage As for me I see no reason to continue playing a game run by incompentent developers.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Bugattiboy

[Dyvim]

...

"Even with the changes in Game Update 2.7, Rage/Focus looks to remain the burst damage leader among the Marauder/Sentinel specializations." Is that for real? This is 100% incorrect. In terms of burst carnage is light years ahead of rage. All what rage does is aoe pressure. In 2.7 there will be absolutely no reason the play rage what so ever.

 

Last "The changes made to Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force were necessary to bring Marauders/Sentinels down a notch and give other classes and enemy NPCs a fighting chance against a Marauder/Sentinel that is being backed by a healer." Let me get this straight, *** does NPC fighting chance mean? I am not against the nerf to UR in 2.5, but giving it to snipers on lower CD, with 100% immunity and no drawbacks contradicts every statement you ever made regarding UR and makes no sense for balance.

 

Excellent points. How Rage is gonna do anything now but sux is a complete and total mystery. That dev statement shows the same level of incompetence and stupidity that brought us the 2.7 changes in the first place. You cannot triple nerf smash, and ruin the worth of about 8 skill points in the tree, a tree that is BUILT AROUND ONE SKILL, smash, and not completely ruin it and invalidate the design of the entire tree.

 

Furthermore, setting the INCREDIBLY STUPID precedent of having a WHOLE TREE work completely differently in PvE versus PvP is DAZZLINGLY INCOMPETENT design.

 

The developers in this game, through all the firings, down sizings, and iterations, HAVE NEVER shown that they understood melee in this game or its inherent difficulties. Too harsh? Think about this:

 

Right now, there is ONE, and ONLY ONE viable pvp build for mara/sents, and that is carnage/combat. We have THREE TREES, yet the devs have left us with ONE viable build. Forget hybrids. ONE VIABLE PVP BUILD. I'm not sure what is worse...that they are too ignorant of their own game to figure that out, or that they were ignorant enough to create the mess in the first place....

Edited April 8, 2014 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

Everyone is confused why Rage is getting nerfed in PvP.. 2 Smash monkeys smashing a whole team for 10k+ each while the healer and tank hide in the corner is not fair or competitive. It causes all other specs to be useless in Arena. They nerfed it because it was dumb. Good for BW on this one.

 

Everyone is also confused about the future of Marauder PvP. To me they clearly stated it, they see Annihilation is underperforming and are working to fix it. Relax. They are also working on a way to make Carnage slightly less RNG. again, settle down.

 

10k+ smashes, or at least their prevalence, were a myth propagated by sux whiner players....

 

First, if you group like lemmings there should be a penalty. If you are grouping up in a small area for heals benefits, or protection, then THERE SHOULD BE AN AOE price to pay for that...second, when you look at all the damage mitigators out there, from bubbles, to protection, to taunts, to aoe damage talent reductions, AGAIN, the 10k+ smash almost NEVER, EVER happened, and if it did the noobs deserved it. On top of all that, you have all the knockbacks and stuns, and mez's, and every other tactic that real players used to mitigate the effectiveness of melee....and if you are grouped on top of each other, odds are any given player in that group has one of more off cooldown...

Edited April 8, 2014 by Dyvim

[Aetrus]

10k+ smashes, or at least their prevalence, were a myth propagated by sux whiner players....

 

First, if you group like lemmings there should be a penalty. If you are grouping up in a small area for heals benefits, or protection, then THERE SHOULD BE AN AOE price to pay for that...second, when you look at all the damage mitigators out there, from bubbles, to protection, to taunts, to aoe damage talent reductions, AGAIN, the 10k+ smash almost NEVER, EVER happened, and if it did the noobs deserved it.

 

If you aren't hitting sages for 10k+ in Smash you're the one doing something wrong.

[Dyvim]

If you aren't hitting sages for 10k+ in Smash you're the one doing something wrong.

 

Really? Unless the sage is bubbled, or guarded, or a tank has hit you with a taunt, or an AOE taunt, or they have some other protection like scrambling field, etc. There are so many possible mitigations they are hard to keep track of...Of course assuming you aren't cc'd or knocked back when you leap in, etc.

 

Want to try again? Or just be quiet in humiliated recognition of your ignorance to the obvious? Leaping into a group and smashing for 10k+ on multiple targets was the RARE exception, far from the rule or the norm and took an exceptionally poor group of players to pull it off on. In fact it is very simple...if you were dealing with a group of skilled players, clumped together, they would have near endless options to mitigate your damage. 10k+ was VERY far from the norm, unless you listen to the whiners and the baddies.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Dyvim

[alexthepadawan]

my opinion:

 

Combat spec:

PS should be like deadly saber. You gets 4 stack and each skill use one stack of "armor penetration". (2 for Master strike). Instead of a duration window you just have to manage the way you spend your stacks.

 

Watchman :

The only spec which is not using Blade Storm. Can be possible to add blade storm in the rotation using a proc mechanism, free or not. Or maybe add a king of hand of justice to use dispatch more than 15 seconds in a fight. Just something similar to gardien in vigilance spec. Or replace the cauterize proc by a Blade storm or dispatch proc. It may provide enough burst. 6-8K instant vs. 6-8k during 6 sec. (with balanced value...)

 

Focus:

Should be Dotsmash with less power (just change the last talent)

 

I love to play dotsmash because you don't have to use strike to complete your rotation. Both combat and watchman need to use boring strike. There aren't a lot of spec in SWTOR using more than one GCD in their rotation for this simple skill. Why it should be the case for sentinels.

To be honest, dotsmash is the most homogenous spec for sentinels/mara. Combat is 50% exciting (PS window) and 50% boring (preparing the next PS). Watchman is interesting when the target is below 30%. Before, you have enough time to call your mother to take news before to be able to dps. In the case of Oricon op, you can also call your sister, brother and so on.

 

ps: sorry for the mistakes.

Edited April 10, 2014 by alexthepadawan