Something I don't understand about the smash nerf

[Aetideus]

Bingo. Ive been metaphorically smashing my face against a brick wall in threads about this. You and Tevzz can spin all the logic you want; but the fact remains that as long as bads see a 7.5-10k hit they'll qq until the world ends. Rage needs to be totally overhauled to become significantly more survivable and have significantly better single target burst. This is obviously bw's ultimate goal. The idea of smash should be relegated to a low dmg aoe primarily used for interrupts.

 

The problem is in 8x8 not in 4. Rank has nothing to do with 8x8. Nevertheless, Smash was bad for the balance of the 2.6 8x8 game. In 2.7 with buffs to all ranged classes I am not exactly sure. I think the best way would be not to nerf the melee classes at the same time. Ops and Rage is over. The viable melee specs are Carnage, Deception, Vengeance, Pyro, AP. Does not seem very balanced.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Aetideus

[AlrikFassbauer]

Every 15 yrs old PvP reject rolls some kind of glass cannon without healer,

 

How are you going to stop doing that, I want to know.

 

but the fact remains that as long as bads see a 7.5-10k hit they'll qq until the world ends.

 

I often wonder : Why did it have to have such high values in the first place ?

 

Okay, with an Assassin I can understand it : Go it, hit like an Assassin, then go out. Hit & Run.

 

Or the Counselor : Hit like a wet noodle unless being guarded. Counselors don't fight. They are the hippies among the Jedi, dreaming of peace and so on.

 

But the other Jedi / Sith classes ? Why these high numbers there ?

Edited March 8, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[NathanielStarr]

Every 15 yrs old PvP reject rolls some kind of glass cannon without healer, of course they die in 3 sec, so they think it's because damage especially smash is OP. You can't explain to them the real problem their brain is not fully developed yet. So BW does what they can to keep them in the game, constantly nerfing damage and increasing survivability.

 

Hmm glass cannons are balanced it's the iron cannons like smash that are not. If smash died like a sorc people wouldn't complain, yet the do damage better than one.

 

I guess you are right if their brain was fully developed they would've picked the overpowered class.

 

You know your argument is very flawed. Every class should be valid. Those glass cannons should be able to take out that smasher at range, but die if attacked. But really what happens is that smasher gets hit, it does next to nothing to them, then is on the sorc in a flash and destroys them. You are actually saying they picked the wrong class and it's their fault. That is ridiculous.

Edited March 8, 2014 by NathanielStarr

[AlrikFassbauer]

Hmm glass cannons are balanced it's the iron cannons like smash that are not.

 

Everybody knows how to break a glass cannon so that only shards remain.

 

But how do you break an iron cannon ?

 

Perhaps by applying rust to it ?

[foxmob]

Ah, another one of the "smash only takes 1 button" scholars.

 

as I was referring to the setup rather than the roto, I'll assume you're not talking about filler. the first smash is free. you pop an instant for full stacks before you leap and smash when you land. the leap is your closer, so yes. first one is instant in every sense. after the smash you apply crush so that stacks are full when smash comes off cd. oblit without range or root restriction, instant smash. it is, effectively, no ramp up and an instant attack with a cleave that does as much dmg as that of the target you leaped to.

 

I am well aware that most, not all, of the filler sucks and that the rage juggs are going down with the maras. c'est la vie in shared specs. happened to mercs too. (not sure the other shared trees were ever very good).

[Telaan]

Hmm glass cannons are balanced it's the iron cannons like smash that are not. If smash died like a sorc people wouldn't complain, yet the do damage better than one.

 

I guess you are right if their brain was fully developed they would've picked the overpowered class.

 

You know your argument is very flawed. Every class should be valid. Those glass cannons should be able to take out that smasher at range, but die if attacked. But really what happens is that smasher gets hit, it does next to nothing to them, then is on the sorc in a flash and destroys them. You are actually saying they picked the wrong class and it's their fault. That is ridiculous.

 

Lol what? Rage is one of the squishiest specs ingame. They die if sneezed on without a pocket healer.

[Cretinus]

If the primary target is guarded will take 4k damage and negligible dmg to the tank.

 

Everybody attacking such a target will have this problem, so why exactly should it be different for smashers?

Edited March 8, 2014 by Cretinus

[Telaan]

The problem is in 8x8 not in 4. Rank has nothing to do with 8x8. Nevertheless, Smash was bad for the balance of the 2.6 8x8 game. In 2.7 with buffs to all ranged classes I am not exactly sure. I think the best way would be not to nerf the melee classes at the same time. Ops and Rage is over. The viable melee specs are Carnage, Deception, Vengeance, Pyro, AP. Does not seem very balanced.

 

Kinda right, kinda wrong. Smash was just a terrible idea from the start. Massive spike aoe dmg? Who's drunken idea was that?

 

The truth is that smash really only became a problem in 8v8 when more than one smasher leapt. Having 14-20k dmg applied instantly will be devastating. Rage has one of the worst single target parses ingame. Those large numbers at the end if WZs are simply because multiple targets are being hit. However, most people are incapable or unwilling to actually consider what that truly means. This is really the crux of all aoe specs in mmos.

 

In 4v4 smash was never good outside if low rating solo queue. The dmg is too easily mitigated by comps/players that have any clue and as I said above, terrible single target dmg. This is exactly why you don't see them in high level play.

 

In reality, smash was never a viable arena spec and won't even be a viable wz spec on 2.7. The funny part is that smash will be as retardedly lol post 2.7 as it is pre 2.7. BW really needs to scrap the tree and rework it into a single target burst spec.

[sensiblepoast]

If in 2.7 they nerf smash do they plan to buff something else to compensate? Who in their right mind play a lesser spec?

OH The Irony!

[Tevzz]

Because the Smash and Scouperative DPS nerfs are designed to benefit one specific class:

 

The Sage/Sorc, both DPS and healers. Now, while I don't think you really have a clue how powerful Smash was for players in those specs considering two out of your three mains are specs that have AOE damage reduction and have pretty hard counters to Smash (along with the implication you ran Smash on your lowbie Jedi in the sig, lol), it's clear the game needed to change as Smashers were a very common spec to see run.

 

With the small tweaks and buffs made to Sorc heals and DPS alike, they are further enhancing their capability in a WZ by nerfing the two specs that would probably be their worst nightmares. As a Sorc healer, the Concealment DPS with the HS knockdown could keep them interrupted for the entire duration of their Polarity Shift, in addition to a straight counter to their damage reduction through energy and tech dot damage. Not to mention, ask any Sorc/Sage healer/DPS about how they feel about Smash, and you'll see how much they enjoy this extreme overkill to the spec for PvP.

 

So, in short, Operatives and Smash nerf is to buff one class only: Sorcs/Sages.

 

Well, I ran a few WZ's after I got my Jugg to 45 since I was using Smash to lvl faster and yes, it was excessive, as I've said quite a few times till now. But still, I was a pretty squishy glass cannon, so despite nuking people with 8-9k's I also got killed in a matter of seconds if focused by 2 or more people. I assume Sentinels have much better survivability since they get a flat 4% additional dmg reduction compared to Juggs, since Rage is more survivable than Carnage, and ironically, Carnage is more survivable than Rage jugs.

 

I think I can sort of relate to classes without a 30% AoE reduction since my Veng Jugg eats big Smashes too, but I still believe the solution was to just reduce Smash's burst output by either replacing the auto-crit or the shockwaves stack and keep it as it is, but keeping it AoE.

[Savej]

Kinda right, kinda wrong. Smash was just a terrible idea from the start. Massive spike aoe dmg? Who's drunken idea was that?

 

I definitely agree. The original devs made lots of questionable balance choices:

stealth tank with burst

stealth heals

bad ability progressions in leveling (some classes get most by 10/20, others wait til 30/40s - one reason for sorc popularity)

lots and lots of aoe cc - mostly useless in pve but devastatingly annoying in pvp, especially for melee

some classes too focused on channeled vs others with tons of instant abilities - makes gauging value of hps/dps very hard for pvp

armor types don't make much difference

etc

 

Smash is definitely up there but the current resulting situation is not nearly as bad as some forum trolls have portrayed it.

[NathanielStarr]

Lol what? Rage is one of the squishiest specs ingame. They die if sneezed on without a pocket healer.

 

Oh my bad I thought they were the ones with all the defensive cooldowns. I guess if you take out mercenaries, sorcerers, dps operatives, and dps assassins and their republic counterparts then I guess sort of. That is only half the other classes in the game.

 

Far stretch about sneezing though, but thanks for a hilarious post.

[Tevzz]

Oh my bad I thought they were the ones with all the defensive cooldowns. I guess if you take out mercenaries, sorcerers, dps operatives, and dps assassins and their republic counterparts then I guess sort of. That is only half the other classes in the game.

 

Far stretch about sneezing though, but thanks for a hilarious post.

 

Play a Jugg/Guard Smasher and come back after that. Your opinion will change.

[Telaan]

Oh my bad

 

No need to apologize. I'm glad you recognized your error and didn't come back with some half thought retort where you list a bunch of stealth and ranged classes.

[NathanielStarr]

Play a Jugg/Guard Smasher and come back after that. Your opinion will change.

 

It's not squishy though. It's not a tank, but it's not supposed to be. It is almost a tank though if they use their defensives right. Certainly one of the most survivable dps specs in the game.

 

You can't overlook the sheer idiocy of the post that I was originally responding to claiming that it was somehow foolish for another player to think that a spec they choose should be viable in PvP. They all should be viable and shouldn't require another class to be that way. Or if they do require another class then all the classes should in some form or another. To say that smashers require a healer to be viable is untrue, they were (and I think they will remain to be) viable in all PvP settings.

 

The argument that ranged is somehow a counter to melee is a flawed one in this game. With the amount of instant movement abilities, stuns, stealth, ease of gaining line of sight, confined quarters, and lack of elevation in most maps it's really not as big a deal as it should be.

Edited March 8, 2014 by NathanielStarr

[Tevzz]

It's not squishy though. It's not a tank, but it's not supposed to be. It is almost a tank though if they use their defensives right. Certainly one of the most survivable dps specs in the game.

 

You can't overlook the sheer idiocy of the post that I was originally responding to claiming that it was somehow foolish for another player to think that a spec they choose should be viable in PvP. They all should be viable and shouldn't require another class to be that way. Or if they do require another class then all the classes should in some form or another. To say that smashers require a healer to be viable is untrue, they were (and I think they will remain to be) viable in all PvP settings.

 

Jugg Smashers have worse survivability than any Marauder Spec, and Marauder (except perhaps Rage Maras) are very far from tanks, or tank-hybrids even with all their DCDs. But I agree with the fact that some classes don't require others to be viable (look at PTs, those guys are more than capable of performing with or without a healer, and they're very versatile). Smashers' purpose though, was to prevent stacking for AoE heals, and with that puny 2-2.5k dmg to secondary targets they will doing, isn't really gonna discourage anybody from stacking, we'll have to rely on AP PTs to annoy ranged clusters.

[ColonelCoburn]

Yes i have s smash class, but im going to say this without any bias intent. Smash does not need to be smurfed, and here is why. Any real pvper would know that smash spec is solely meant to be fluff damage, they arnt meant to do any serious killing, basically all the smashers job is to run around and soften everone up so the real dps people can come in and "finish the job". So does smash spec need to be smurfed? No way! Why lower its ONE job!?! Makes no sense to me, so i will be standing on that side. Now i dont like being smashed on, but im not going to be a whiny school girl and have a hissy fit over it, this is like someone saying, "lets smurf the aoe heals, they do the same heals to everyone in the radius". my response is wow you're an idiot, go back to WOW. Smurfing smash is just as ridiculous as someone saying smurf aoe heals. there now you have an input from a pvper who actually knows what smash spec is for and isnt gonna be a ***** and complain when they get smashed on.

[StryfeByrd]

as someone who runs vengance jugg, i have to agree that smash did not need to be nerf'd veng and smash have 2 diff styles and 2 diff jobs, but just like many other nerfs BW has instituted (orbital strike) it makes no sense and was probly done cuz the devs kids like to stand in stupid.

[Stringray]

Players who say that smash does not deserve a nerf either play a smasher themselves or really have no idea about how PvP works at this game. Even smashers know that they need the nerf, they just don't want to say so.

 

 

What other outstanding ability to Rage jugs have?

 

It takes set up, there are not that many people who do it right, and it is highly situational when it is a valuable spec.

 

Other classes hit just as hard only FASTER and can do it MORE FREQUENTLY but basically clueless wankers who get smashed a couple times for 10k think it is more of a problem than an ops who can spam 5-7k over and over or an assassin who can global you out of stealth.

 

People ************ about smash need to learn knockbacks, stuns, bubbles, and how to LOS. It is hard to land a smash on GOOD players.

[ColonelCoburn]

What other outstanding ability to Rage jugs have?

 

It takes set up, there are not that many people who do it right, and it is highly situational when it is a valuable spec.

 

Other classes hit just as hard only FASTER and can do it MORE FREQUENTLY but basically clueless wankers who get smashed a couple times for 10k think it is more of a problem than an ops who can spam 5-7k over and over or an assassin who can global you out of stealth.

 

People ************ about smash need to learn knockbacks, stuns, bubbles, and how to LOS. It is hard to land a smash on GOOD players.

^^^ exactly!!! spoken like a true pvper, one that doesnt cry until everything is smurfed. if they smurf smash i will no longer play that role, because you are already at a slight disadvantage when fighting good people, i will just go veng i guess

[Tevzz]

^^^ exactly!!! spoken like a true pvper, one that doesnt cry until everything is smurfed. if they smurf smash i will no longer play that role, because you are already at a slight disadvantage when fighting good people, i will just go veng i guess

 

Yeah, I went Veng a while ago, but that's just because I got bored of Smash and Veng feels awesome. Nevertheless, Smash against good players who spread out is much less effective than people think. Against good players they will still eat 8-10k's...but it won't be 5 of them at once.

[Devilk]

Yes i have s smash class, but im going to say this without any bias intent. Smash does not need to be smurfed, and here is why. Any real pvper would know that smash spec is solely meant to be fluff damage, they arnt meant to do any serious killing, basically all the smashers job is to run around and soften everone up so the real dps people can come in and "finish the job". So does smash spec need to be smurfed? No way! Why lower its ONE job!?! Makes no sense to me, so i will be standing on that side. Now i dont like being smashed on, but im not going to be a whiny school girl and have a hissy fit over it, this is like someone saying, "lets smurf the aoe heals, they do the same heals to everyone in the radius". my response is wow you're an idiot, go back to WOW. Smurfing smash is just as ridiculous as someone saying smurf aoe heals. there now you have an input from a pvper who actually knows what smash spec is for and isnt gonna be a ***** and complain when they get smashed on.

 

Yeah idk what game you have been playing but smash is very capable of killing people...it might be fluff damage, but they can take down their intended target very easily.

[ColonelCoburn]

Yeah, I went Veng a while ago, but that's just because I got bored of Smash and Veng feels awesome. Nevertheless, Smash against good players who spread out is much less effective than people think. Against good players they will still eat 8-10k's...but it won't be 5 of them at once.

yup and thats why i am voting agaionst it, my advice to the poeple that complain, learn how yo play or go back to WOW

[ColonelCoburn]

Yeah idk what game you have been playing but smash is very capable of killing people...it might be fluff damage, but they can take down their intended target very easily.

obviosuly it can kill, a healer can kill moron. just learn how to play well and stop complaining because you suck. learn how to use your interupt, cc, and push back moves moron

[Smuglebunny]

^^^ exactly!!! spoken like a true pvper, one that doesnt cry until everything is smurfed. if they smurf smash i will no longer play that role, because you are already at a slight disadvantage when fighting good people, i will just go veng i guess

 

What is smurfed? Are they making juggs short and blue? Or are they making them buy psudoephedrine from a pharmacy?