Barrel Roll

[Kuciwalker]

...What? The only thing barrel roll does that afterburners don't is go faster.

 

False! Barrel roll moves you a more-or-less fixed distance while giving you minimal control during that movement. It only lets you go that distance once every N seconds. Barrel roll leaves you going much, much slower at the end, while making you virtually impossible to hit during the travel.

 

Afterburners, by contrast, are just faster controlled flight that you can use on a pro-rata basis from your engine pool.

 

When barrel roll is your primary mobility mechanic, you have to actually think a few steps ahead each time you use it and figure out exactly where you want to end up. You also have to work to avoid killing yourself in enclosed spaces.

[Kuciwalker]

Gunship mobility with barrel roll isn't just "hit 3, you're done". Against a good scout pilot you really have to work for the few seconds it might give you to get a shot off.

 

It should no more be the case that a scout auto-wins against a gunship once it closes to 5km than a gunship auto-wins against a scout if it sees the scout at 15km.

 

And if you are a scout and you do lose to gunships every time they see you at 15km, you are a bad pilot.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Verain]

My problem with the barrel roll nerf is this- it already feels very punishing to get around the map. While this will definitely make missiles more deadly (likely needed), the game actually risks losing some fun factor. I know I will feel absolutely enervated- I use barrel roll on everything except bombers, and to try the other components is punishing.

[Mikla]

That is my chief worry. Barrel roll is one of the best way to survive gunships, and with the increase power cost it may make it impossible to use BR to survive an ion railgun hit. This is rather counterintuitive, given how ion railgun is one of the more abusive systems out there still (in the sense that it's a stunlock, and stunlocks are _bad_).

 

This is my chief concern too. I like to fly mainly strike fighter and this is a big nerf to strikes which most people believe are towards the bottom of the power spectrum.The increased energy cost means that you are as good as dead if hit by an ION cannon engine debuff.

 

Increasing the energy cost is effectively a buff to gunships and bombers. The two most complained about ship classes.

 

Increasing the energy cost of BR makes Ion cannon even more devastating and makes bombers lack of a BR for movement less of an issue. A gunship will still be able to escape as easily as it does now, because it can BR just as frequently as the chasing ship or ships and will in most instances be starting with a lot more engine power than those who have had to quickly close range on the Gunship.

 

This change seems ill considered and will likely go untested on the PTS because of a lack of pilots testing there. Spent two hours on PTS today without a single queue pop.

 

It would be really great to hear from the devs the issue(s) they are trying to address with these changes because I cant see how they improve matters at present.

[Kuciwalker]

I agree that the energy cost increase is a huge buff to ion cannon / gunship offense generally. I know that barrel roll is my #1 tool for dealing with ion, and the fact that it becomes usable only a fraction of a second after the lockout ends is key.

[The_Raven_Lord]

The devs don't communicate at all regarding GSF. Or much about anything else at all, but GSF players certainly get the least amount of communication.

 

Now, to the matter at hand, here's my two cents on the Barrel Roll nerf.

 

It's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Closing the distance to a Gunship is already tricky business. Sure they can Barrel Roll away, but if you do it right, your BR will be up before you start attacking and get noticed. Also, as a Scout, you have tissue paper for armor and the least amount of HP. If you can't go fast, and keep going fast, and have a reliable "GET ME OUT OF HERE" button, you're doomed.

 

Barrel Roll works fine as it is. Why fix something that isn't broken? If anything, they should rethink the idiotic Power Dive and Koiogran Turn. Retro Thrusters and Barrel Roll work fine, Retro's are unbelievably amazing in the hands of the top elite of Pilots, Barrel Roll is fine for everyone. It's the other ones that are crap.

 

The only thing this nerf will accomplish is make Gunships and Bombers more popular. Every Scout pilot I've spoken too except for the MOST die-hard plan to switch to another ship and infact, are already working on upgrading either their bombers or Gunships. So yeah... this isn't going to be pleasant for GSF.

 

As was stated before, the learning curve is already ENORMOUS, and playing a ship without any upgrades is already VERY painful. taking away a few things that makes it all so much fun, isn't a wise move at all.

 

And Barrel Roll... IS FUN! A LOT OF FUN! Going fast in a scout, barrel rolling through tight spaces, leading pursuers through tight obstacles at top speed... when you're in a lopsided match that's already not a lot of fun... taking away things that give you some enjoyment...

 

Yeah.. I'll probably be done with GSF after this goes live. And since GSF is the only thing keeping me paying for this game and playing it... yeah... see you all in WildStar.

 

No, you can't have my stuff, I'll dump it all into my guild bank for other people who still enjoy other aspects of this game.

[Ramalina]

Obviously it's designed to let Pike pilots stuff more missiles up your tailpipes.

 

Doesn't look like it does much to detune GS mobility except against strike fighters without barrel roll, which will have a few more seconds in which to not quite manage to close the gap before the GS barrel rolls again.

 

Honestly, for missile employment though, I'd rather have more lock time reductions.

[Sinapus]

I've started trying out the barrel roll as quick travel ability. Yeah, an increase in the cooldown might help a bit.

[FixerFortyKay]

Barrel roll is fine if it's not on a Gunship.

 

Just double the CD on Gunship Barrel roll. Problem solved.

[MystbladeWA]

Retros land kills. I can't tell you how many times I've used it to finish an engagement (by finishing my missile lock and getting off an extra shot or two while also breaking their lock or dodging their pods) that would otherwise have been prolonged by one or both of us running away with barrel roll and coming back to repeat the process.

 

Is it easy? No. I don't manage it every time, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of pilots were incapable of this tactic because of issues with accuracy and spacial awareness (if you don't smack into a wall, the jittery nature of the maneuver will throw off your aim -- and a lot of pilots will dive out of your firing arc if you're not fast enough). I don't think it should have been nerfed because all this nerf does is drastically reduce how often I can break a missile lock (because most of the time I use them defensively, not offensively).

 

Koiogran turn? No idea. Can't stand it myself, and on a 20% turning ship, I don't need it. I'll take a manual U-turn over a predictable U-turn any day.

 

I can see a rise in type 1 scouts using EMP field to compensate for the decreased frequency of missile lock breaks available.

 

I have recently come into using this after seeing some enemy pilots employ it against me. I love it.

 

Yeah, I dont always land it, and in the heat of the moment i have arse crushed an asteroid a few times. But, in the current TDM environment where players LOVE the head to head missile/laser blastoff, it is a massive advantage to kill their lock, finish and release yours, while still maintaining laser range and rate of fire.

 

So. Many. Kills.

[Kuciwalker]

Obviously it's designed to let Pike pilots stuff more missiles up your tailpipes.

 

Doesn't look like it does much to detune GS mobility except against strike fighters without barrel roll, which will have a few more seconds in which to not quite manage to close the gap before the GS barrel rolls again.

 

No, this makes the scout's engine pool and speed advantage (relative to a gunship) much more pronounced.

[Zoom_VI]

No, this makes the scout's engine pool and speed advantage (relative to a gunship) much more pronounced.

 

isn't that the whole dang point of the class? To intercept things? Which is impossible to do if the target can move faster than you.

 

Scouts are melee, gunships having BR is like if snipers had a reverse leap, they would just leap away the moment any melee closed with them, thus defeating the purpose of melee.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Sindariel]

Obviously it's designed to let Pike pilots stuff more missiles up your tailpipes.

 

Doesn't look like it does much to detune GS mobility except against strike fighters without barrel roll, which will have a few more seconds in which to not quite manage to close the gap before the GS barrel rolls again.

 

Honestly, for missile employment though, I'd rather have more lock time reductions.

 

If they really want to make missiles more viable, than they should reduce their lock-on times and cooldowns.

Every missile and torpedo (except Clusters) needs at least 1s less of lock-on time and they would be perfectly fine without nerfing any other mechanics into ground.

[Kain_Turinbar]

Obviously it's designed to let Pike pilots stuff more missiles up your tailpipes.

 

Doesn't look like it does much to detune GS mobility except against strike fighters without barrel roll, which will have a few more seconds in which to not quite manage to close the gap before the GS barrel rolls again.

 

Honestly, for missile employment though, I'd rather have more lock time reductions.

 

As a Pike pilot I don't like this because it will be easier to stuff missiles up MY tailpipe too, let alone escape after getting gimped by an Ion railgun.

 

I'm with the guy that posted above you. I think when 2.7 hits I'm done with GSF.

[SammyGStatus]

Barrel roll is fine if it's not on a Gunship.

 

Just double the CD on Gunship Barrel roll. Problem solved.

 

Abbbbbbbsolutely not. My CD is 15 seconds. If you make 30 second cd on it, my evasion shield will be the only way I can stop missle locks, but that isn't an effective enough tool considering the amount of time I have to evade 4 fighters on the opposing team who decide to come after me after I've cleared the entire opposition in TDM. I'd take an 18 -20 second cool down, because there are some instances where I can barely get off the second one right as a missile is coming for me, meaning I will die more but if it means less people will complain and I can have more pops, I'll take it. 30 seconds is wayyyyyy too long.

[Itkovian]

As a Pike pilot I don't like this because it will be easier to stuff missiles up MY tailpipe too, let alone escape after getting gimped by an Ion railgun.

 

I'm with the guy that posted above you. I think when 2.7 hits I'm done with GSF.

 

Well, let's not get overdramatic: 20 second cooldown is fine.

 

Ever since learning of it a week ago I'm intentionally nerfed myself to use barrel roll as little as possible, and while it does make things more dangerous, it's not so bad so long as you learn not to use it as a travel option (except to **** of danger and find cover).

 

The real issue is the power cost. If it makes it impossible to get out of the danger zone when nailed by an Ion Railgun, it's definitely an unnecessary nerf. Cooldown nerf? Yes, I can see it, especially if the other missile breaks get a somewhat similar nerf. But if the final power cost (once you get the power cost reduction in place) is exhorbitant then it becomes a massive buff for Gunships using ion railguns, who CERTAINLY do not need it,.

 

The problem, however, is that it's practically impossible to test, as nobody queues GSF on the PTS, which is incredibly annoying.

[Sindariel]

Abbbbbbbsolutely not. My CD is 15 seconds. If you make 30 second cd on it, my evasion shield will be the only way I can stop missle locks, but that isn't an effective enough tool considering the amount of time I have to evade 4 fighters on the opposing team who decide to come after me after I've cleared the entire opposition in TDM.

 

Having a low survivability should be your freaking tradeoff for being able to clear the entire opposition, you damn ignorant gunship pilot!

Edited March 5, 2014 by Sindariel

[SammyGStatus]

Having a low survivability should be your freaking tradeoff for being able to clear the entire opposition, you damn ignorant gunship pilot!

 

False - the damage overcharge power up should not result in me losing survivability, considering it's for EVERYONE

[Armonddd]

False - the damage overcharge power up should not result in me losing survivability, considering it's for EVERYONE

 

Damage overcharge should just not exist. Also, that's completely unrelated to domination.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Armonddd

[SammyGStatus]

Damage overcharge should just not exist. Also, that's completely unrelated to domination.

 

Agree with the first part - I don't need it for kills. Also, in domination, as long as there are 3 GOOD pilots on the other team keeping me busy and making me use evasive maneuvers as much as possible and interrupting my sniping time, I can't really do much in terms of an impact (lowest score last night was 11/1 kd because I had everyone gunning for me). Damage was also my lowest for the night at 36k. Point is, if there are good opponents, it makes things a little more difficult. It's easy for me to be on my own as a gunship, where as scouts and fighters need to coordinate more to defeat one.

 

Gunships should be faster on a grand scale (not like closing distance-wise, but as a means of travel) as they're bigger ships, thus having bigger engines (Tie fighters in star wars didn't even have hyperdrives), but since scouts SHOULD be the fastest class, why not buff their barrel roll to compensate? I really don't like the idea of losing the ability to evade missles.

[Kuciwalker]

isn't that the whole dang point of the class? To intercept things? Which is impossible to do if the target can move faster than you.

 

Scouts are melee, gunships having BR is like if snipers had a reverse leap, they would just leap away the moment any melee closed with them, thus defeating the purpose of melee.

 

1. Did you see any normative claims in my post? No, because my post only corrected the positive claim that the change to BR didn't affect GS mobility.
   
2. Scouts with barrel roll can easily keep up with gunships. (Good) scouts with retro will have difficulty doing so only when the gunship is expertly piloted, and will be putting enough pressure on the gunship to effectively neutralize it as a threat to anyone else. IMO that suggests they are fairly balanced; in a 1v1 with equal skill the fight will tend to be a stalemate.
   

 

Also, snipers have multiple "reverse leaps", between cover pulse, ambush, roll...

Edited March 5, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Kuciwalker]

Having a low survivability should be your freaking tradeoff for being able to clear the entire opposition, you damn ignorant gunship pilot!

 

Any class can clear the entire opposition if they're bad, and none can if they're good.

[Morgrid]

It's up to a 20 second cooldown with upgrades.

 

Try out retro thrusters. They're better anyway.

 

I've become a fan of power dive on my Blackbolt.

[Morgrid]

I see people complaining about mobility, and here I am sitting in my bomber still waiting to get to A...

[DroidDreamer]

Wow, this does suck. So many times I get tagged by an ion shot or two and have no energy and furiously tap "3" until barrel roll finally has enough energy to activate and can escape just in time. This will make any stunlock an automatic death.

 

Good point. But the answer is to tone down the ion railgun. This change to barrel roll is a good one. As Shayd notes, it gives the speed crown back to scouts. And as others have noted, it made good gunship pilots uncatchable/unstoppable.