Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Silenceo]

We seem to be missing one key component when comparing commanders and tacticians. It is easily missed but can play a huge part. Many advanced droids at times view the galaxy as if it is going in slow motion. One such example of this is IG-88 when he not only sees a blaster bolt coming towards him but debates with himself whether to dodge it or reflect it directly back at its source. This leads to another topic. This is caused, i believe, due to the fact that droids think much faster than sentient organics. Some of the more intelligent droids will at times seem to have no delay between thoughts and action, causing almost instant reaction time. Like was stated earlier, it is only a matter of processing power for how intelligent or effective droids can be. If GO-TO is able to increase his processing power *such as upgrading himself or some such* it is very likely that he could accurately control his troops directly.

 

Where droids can have these lightning fast reaction times while still having considered alternatives they gain huge advantages against any organic tactician, minus Thrawn of course. Before hand both sides may have a good plan but as everybody knows, No Plan Survives First Contact. This is where the droids can make use of their distinct advantages and adapt *if they are intelligent enough or connected via signals to one that is* to new plans of action. Humans would likely need time to think, look over their options, or react out of familiarity with tactics they have used in the past. If GO-TO goes about this war the usual way he does, by knowing how his opponents think, then all 3 will cost the AE dearly.

 

"I Think, therefore I am. I destroy, therefor i Endure."

 

Contingency plans can only go so far. Eventually everybody runs out. Droids however endure forever.

 

Edit: Organics have to vocalize their plans clearly in order for anything to be done at all. Droids, while the less intelligent ones have to vocalize, many can communicate instantaneously as well if they are able to transmit to each other.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

Yeah, don't use IG-88. At all.

[tunewalker]

I don't understand how people can argue that because someone doesn't have personal experience with war that means they can't effectively fight one. Take pretty much any world leader. Are they decorated war generals? No, at least not most of them. Can they still make good tactical decisions for their countries? Yes.

 

But if this is going nowhere then I agree, let's move on. It's basically just degrading into a droid hate-fest at this point.

 

there is just as much biological hate by assuming anything people can do, droids can do better.

 

The way its being described comes off like GO-TO can out maneuver Thrawn.

 

Thousands of years of droid technology and even thousands of years after GO-TO and not one instance ever showed a droid out doing a biological being in warfare tactics and i am supossed to believe this one can.

 

Well if beni believes it, he believes it at this point there is no concrete proof to support any claim because never done does not mean never could, nor does never done mean can do. So proving it one way or another is futile.

Edited March 6, 2014 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

, nor does never done me can do.

 

Wat.

 

No but really, GO-TO doesn't have any feats to suggest he can lead in tactics in regards to warfare. He could download them..(has he ever even downloaded something to become good at it?) but that doesn't mean he is gonna automatically be superior to an already highly experienced tactician. There really isn't any proof that GO-TO would make for a superior tactician than any other being.

[tunewalker]

Wat.

 

No but really, GO-TO doesn't have any feats to suggest he can lead in tactics in regards to warfare. He could download them..(has he ever even downloaded something to become good at it?) but that doesn't mean he is gonna automatically be superior to an already highly experienced tactician. There really isn't any proof that GO-TO would make for a superior tactician than any other being.

 

Essentially I said that they said running a criminal business would be no different (which I disagreed with) so now its to the point of Never done doesnt mean cant, nor does it work as proof that they can. Never done is never done it is proof of nothing.

 

 

But Ya I agree, as well as agree about downloading tactics and if he did download tactics its only ever going to be, the by the book conventional tactics nothing unorthodox as no programming is complex enough for some of that, but like i said going to go in circles . People have already made up their minds which side of the fence they are on in this regard.

[Selenial]

Honestly to an extent their are rules concerning everything, or rather consequences.

 

It is just another variable in a droid's mind. Nothing more.

 

Just like it is in ours when you come down to it. You can do X because Y. You get the idea.

 

EverytHing G0-T0 did he was programmed to do.

 

He was given statistics on the republic, criminal empires, planets etc to calculate a means to save the republic, and he took the logical choice.

 

War is anything but logical, humans do stupid things that somehow work, and they use the force which a droid can never calculate.

 

And I'm not almighty about B1's. a Tactical droids designed for naval warfare were outsmarted by Jedi daily... I don't see G0-T0 as Being much better.

[Beniboybling]

Computers are near equal to top chess champions. They dont always win. And no computer in the history of star wars or in human history has ever out done a person in WAR tactics, because the variables are much larger and no computer has ever been able to do it.

 

GO-TO has not shown any tactical ability. He has shown the ability to run a business. A criminal business, but a business none the less. He is intelligent, but he is not creative. A droid can never create an original piece of art. War is noted as much logic as it is ART. He may get the logical point but the artistic, creative side of things are an impossibilty for him as it is with all droid. Creativity has been part of what has allowed people like Garm over come all kinds of people before.

 

At no point in Star Wars nor at any point in real life, has a computer been more "intelligent" then the human brain. But i doubt there is any convincing you of this matter, as I have already pointed out several instances of People massively outdoing droids and the only response is "its not GO-TO" well here is a novel thought for you, its not GO-TO because GO-TO was never placed into those positions. GO-TO has as much experience beating humans in tactical world of war as any other droid out there. AKA None, and yet we are all just assuming he can. I really wish we would start to use precedence for this stuff rather than making unfounded assumptions about characters abilities, based solely on intelligent moves that have no relation to the argument at hand.

Chess champions used to be able to beat computers, now they are failing and people are starting to release its futile to challenge them. Regardless its merely proof that a computer and a human can go toe-to-toe in the field of strategy.

 

An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, Tunewalker. We cannot assume that simple because G0-T0 has not been in a war scenario that he cannot operate in a war scenario. War is not some special plane of existence, its just strategy and planning with guns involved. G0-T0 is a planning droid, he processes information, and organizes and employs entities to produce the most effective results. All he needs is an understanding of the mechanics of war and he can apply this to battle. You've failed to provide evidence as to why he cannot. That is a precedent, you just don't like it.

 

BUt lets refute some fallacies in your argument:

 

No droid has ever outdone a person in war tactics: ridiculous, T-series tactical droids were deployed across the galaxy during the Clone Wars often without the luxury of biological commanders who were only assigned to the most important missions. If these droids were not capable of winning the CIS would not have lasted in the war. Heck during the Sky Battle of Quell it was the tactical droid as opposed to the Jedi General who was losing, after being outmaneuvered.

 

War is like art: perhaps according to the romanticized novel, but in reality? I don't think so. Art is one of the few things droids likely cannot understand due to its illogicality. Art has no set goal and not definitive means of achieving it, you do whatever you want and produce whatever outcome you want and it doesn't matter. War couldn't be any more different, you can't afford to make mistakes and there are right and wrong ways of doing things within the set parameters of the possible. Being artistic in war would lead to sacrificing advantages for the sake of frivolity and sentimentality. Not good.

 

Droids are not capable of creativity: first the word creativity is an empty phrase, its merely another word for the unorthodox, and I've already demonstrated how a droid is capable of unorthodox thought. G0-T0 and strategy droids can formulate "original" strategies just fine. They combine variables to fashion the most logical course of action, this may be a simple move, or it may be something far more complex and intricate. But as long as these "creative tactics" are firmly based in logic, a droid is not incapable of performing them, not incapable at all. And in turn can be predicted.

 

Again you cannot create something out of nothing, in all original strategies will be a series of actions that said command has not simply 'invented' - actions that exist and are possible within the parameters of reality. G0-T0 took his original programming and attempted to achieve his goal in a completely different way than intended, he decided to take control of a criminal empire and use that to assist the Republic, breaking free of the various parameters and rules that Republic had set out before him to pursue the most logical and effective action.

 

Really I can't state this enough, when it comes down to matters of logic a computer is no less capable of being creative than a human. Its merely a question of intelligence. Don't creative invisible barriers without backing them up with logical explanation - and I don't mean examples of dumb droids - I mean actual logical reasons.

 

G0-T0 is a planning droid, and with an understanding of the mechanics of war and the adequate processing power he can process the various variables and possible outcomes of a battlefield scenario to create multiple effective strategies, counter-strategies and backup plans in the space of a few seconds, and exectute these plans immediately. And with the appropriate data he can anaylse the weakenesses in his opponents and exploit them to maximum effect with whatever best suits his purposes that he has at his disposal. Strategy, effective strategy.

 

Why are supercomputers not employed in tactical scenarios? Well G0-T0 seems to be the first of its kind and every droid deployed rebelled, supercomputers are too smart, they don't work for humans.

[Beniboybling]

EverytHing G0-T0 did he was programmed to do.

 

He was given statistics on the republic, criminal empires, planets etc to calculate a means to save the republic, and he took the logical choice.

 

War is anything but logical, humans do stupid things that somehow work, and they use the force which a droid can never calculate.

 

And I'm not almighty about B1's. a Tactical droids designed for naval warfare were outsmarted by Jedi daily... I don't see G0-T0 as Being much better.

Was he programmed to break away from the Republic and create a criminal empire? No, he overrode his programming and employed logical and creative thought to best achieve his primary objective.

 

War is logical, humans that do stupid things that somehow work are lucky. If you'd like to provide some examples please do but the way I see it illogical actions 9/10 do not produce effective results in war. Any actions in war that may seem stupid and work will simply have a sound logical backing that less intelligent minds couldn't perceive.

 

Or are you proposing that Jar Jar Binks is capable of outsmarting the best strategists out there?

 

That Thrawn's successes were down to dumb luck?

 

Really I think literature has just stuffed us up with romanticized nonsense that droids are somehow incapable of achieving that 'implacable human spark' so that we can't see the wood from the trees.

 

Because G0-T0s intelligence = B1 Battle Droid lol.

[Beniboybling]

Yeah, don't use IG-88. At all.

What have I told you about dismissing arguments out of hand?

[Beniboybling]

But Ya I agree, as well as agree about downloading tactics and if he did download tactics its only ever going to be, the by the book conventional tactics nothing unorthodox as no programming is complex enough for some of that, but like i said going to go in circles . People have already made up their minds which side of the fence they are on in this regard.

As I've already said G0-T0 does not need to download tactics, he can make his own. However I expect such an upgrade merely makes one able to analyze warfare and create tactics. As others have said no strategy survives contact with the enemy. And you can't really have programmed strategies without knowing the nature of your enemy and battlefield.

[tunewalker]

There is a reason the book by Sun Tsu was called "Art of War"

 

If you think there are no rules around making art you havent taken art classes before. Tell a computer to right a symphony even if it is programmed with all the rules of Music Theory, it cant. But a person can, I can.

 

Those T droids that fought with the CiS, I would like to remind you that the CiS outnumbered the Clones by more then 100 to 1 if not 1,000 to 1 and were still fighting even with if not losing to the biologicals. Clearly the droid didnt out do a biological commander.

 

 

Like I said you have your belief already and no amount of yick yacking is going to prove it one way or another. You will never convince me, and I will never convince you it is a waste of time. Seriously if you read my later posts you would have already seen I said this Some one never doing something is not proof that they CANT do it, nor is it proof that they can. As he has never we can not assume one way or another, I made the assumption of cant since no droid has outmanuevered people like Garm, mothma, Koon or Obi-wan, you made the assumption of can because...... GO-TO is smart in some areas so must be in all, after all if you asked a computer that specifically programmed to play chess to play Mahjong it would rule at it just like it did chess.... or hell tell it to Play star craft I am sure that Chess programmed computer could be competitive. Its smart enough after all and thats all that matters is processing power.

 

 

SO lets just call GO-TO better then Thrawn and the greatest military commander of all time since he is droid that can conceive of every potential plan or back up plan the galaxy will ever have and get it over with. He is an infalible machine, with the ability for infinite calculations. And nothing any one says will convince you of other wise.

[tunewalker]

Was he programmed to break away from the Republic and create a criminal empire? No, he overrode his programming and employed logical and creative thought to best achieve his primary objective.

 

War is logical, humans that do stupid things that somehow work are lucky. If you'd like to provide some examples please do but the way I see it illogical actions 9/10 do not produce effective results in war. Any actions in war that may seem stupid and work will simply have a sound logical backing that less intelligent minds couldn't perceive.

 

Or are you proposing that Jar Jar Binks is capable of outsmarting the best strategists out there?

 

That Thrawn's successes were down to dumb luck?

 

Really I think literature has just stuffed us up with romanticized nonsense that droids are somehow incapable of achieving that 'implacable human spark' so that we can't see the wood from the trees.

 

Because G0-T0s intelligence = B1 Battle Droid lol.

 

Its not literature. Its fact. Supercomputers are no where near the level of AI as of right now to conduct war. No computer has been built yet that can understand every intercate moment of war or military tactics. It can not predict enemy responses nor can it predict the most effective response of allies. As of yet Computers are worthless for tactics in comparison to a living breathing human being.

 

I am not talking about SCi-Fi here i am talking life. Computers just cant do it. Thus far Star Wars comps have shown the same, none have run a war better then biological Tactical geniuses like Garm, Obi-wan, or Koon, but like i said you have made up your mind, just say freeze put a stop to this debate, put your foot down and say its over and tell us what to debate next so we can go at it till you make up your mind on that subject.

[tunewalker]

Was he programmed to break away from the Republic and create a criminal empire? No, he overrode his programming and employed logical and creative thought to best achieve his primary objective.

 

War is logical, humans that do stupid things that somehow work are lucky. If you'd like to provide some examples please do but the way I see it illogical actions 9/10 do not produce effective results in war. Any actions in war that may seem stupid and work will simply have a sound logical backing that less intelligent minds couldn't perceive.

 

Or are you proposing that Jar Jar Binks is capable of outsmarting the best strategists out there?

 

That Thrawn's successes were down to dumb luck?

 

Really I think literature has just stuffed us up with romanticized nonsense that droids are somehow incapable of achieving that 'implacable human spark' so that we can't see the wood from the trees.

 

Because G0-T0s intelligence = B1 Battle Droid lol.

 

Just a note, Thrawns successes were based off his understanding of the psyche of individuals displayed to him through is understanding of ART. You know that thing a machine cant do, that thing a machine can never even begin to conceive. The key to his victories is the one thing a droid, no matter how complex, could ever hope to understand in any fashion and thus never duplicate.

[Beniboybling]

There is a reason the book by Sun Tsu was called "Art of War"

 

If you think there are no rules around making art you havent taken art classes before. Tell a computer to right a symphony even if it is programmed with all the rules of Music Theory, it cant. But a person can, I can.

 

Those T droids that fought with the CiS, I would like to remind you that the CiS outnumbered the Clones by more then 100 to 1 if not 1,000 to 1 and were still fighting even with if not losing to the biologicals. Clearly the droid didnt out do a biological commander.

 

 

Like I said you have your belief already and no amount of yick yacking is going to prove it one way or another. You will never convince me, and I will never convince you it is a waste of time. Seriously if you read my later posts you would have already seen I said this Some one never doing something is not proof that they CANT do it, nor is it proof that they can. As he has never we can not assume one way or another, I made the assumption of cant since no droid has outmanuevered people like Garm, mothma, Koon or Obi-wan, you made the assumption of can because...... GO-TO is smart in some areas so must be in all, after all if you asked a computer that specifically programmed to play chess to play Mahjong it would rule at it just like it did chess.... or hell tell it to Play star craft I am sure that Chess programmed computer could be competitive. Its smart enough after all and thats all that matters is processing power.

 

 

SO lets just call GO-TO better then Thrawn and the greatest military commander of all time since he is droid that can conceive of every potential plan or back up plan the galaxy will ever have and get it over with. He is an infalible machine, with the ability for infinite calculations. And nothing any one says will convince you of other wise.

Some comparisons can be drawn between art and war in regards to creativity and skill. But they become different in terms of aesthetic quality. Art is designed to be aesthetically pleasing and this is something a computer cannot comprehend. I can assure you war is designed not aesthetically pleasing, it is logical and efficient.

 

I was never taught rules in my art classes. I was taught how to use tools properly but nobody ever told be anything about right and wrong when it comes to what I produce. There are techniques yes, and there is convention yes, you might even be taught how to replicate others work or reality, but there are no objectives and no 'right' way of going about things. I reaffirm that there are no rules in art, and I'm sure any actual artist would affirm that truth.

 

In the battle I pointed to the Republic had the advantage in terms of firepower, they still lost. And it seemed to be because the CIS outmaneuvered them. This is against a Jedi General we are talking about here, beaten by a droid. And that's just a standard tactical droid, who doesn't come close the G0-T0's advanced intelligence.

 

But wait what?!

 

As he has never we can not assume one way or another, I made the assumption of cant since no droid has outmanuevered people like Garm, mothma, Koon or Obi-wan.

 

You made the assumption that G0-T0 cannot do X because droids have never done X.

 

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Listen to yourself Tunewalker, you are using an absence of evidence i.e. no droid has ever done it, to back up your claims. This is ridiculous!

 

you made the assumption of can because...... GO-TO is smart in some areas so must be in all, after all if you asked a computer that specifically programmed to play chess to play Mahjong it would rule at it just like it did chess.... or hell tell it to Play star craft I am sure that Chess programmed computer could be competitive. Its smart enough after all and thats all that matters is processing power.

 

I'm not going to go in to how this is a straw man argument, but at the very least its proof that you accept my arguments have been backed up with some kind of theory, whereas yours is based on an absence of evidence.

 

Anyway as I said, given that G0-T0 is a planning droid and war is about planning and strategy, all G0-T0 would need is an understanding of the mechanics of war to be effective in it. Remember war does not have rules like chess does, the only rules that apply are the rules of nature, and G0-T0 understands these. Basically he is adaptable.

 

More straw man argument, and your common tendency to exaggerate in situations like these. I never said that G0-T0 can beat Thrawn, merely that he has the tactical ability to go toe-to-toe with human strategists and the ability to apply unorthodox strategy e.g. suicide runs, trench run defense etc. by exaggerating my argument you help no one.

 

Least of all yourself.

[Beniboybling]

Just a note, Thrawns successes were based off his understanding of the psyche of individuals displayed to him through is understanding of ART. You know that thing a machine cant do, that thing a machine can never even begin to conceive. The key to his victories is the one thing a droid, no matter how complex, could ever hope to understand in any fashion and thus never duplicate.

And I question whether that is possible, considering that this is a fictional universe, I don't think its been done in real life.

 

Anyway its not very relevant, Thrawn merely used art to gain an understanding of a cultures character i.e. are they aggressive, defensive, foolhardy etc. a droid can do that via other means. I agree that a lot about how one thinks can be discerned from art, perhaps. But this doesn't not prove that their are rules to art or that art is like war.

 

All in demonstrates is that one's personality can effect the strategies one uses. Great.

[Beniboybling]

Its not literature. Its fact. Supercomputers are no where near the level of AI as of right now to conduct war. No computer has been built yet that can understand every intercate moment of war or military tactics. It can not predict enemy responses nor can it predict the most effective response of allies. As of yet Computers are worthless for tactics in comparison to a living breathing human being.

 

I am not talking about SCi-Fi here i am talking life. Computers just cant do it. Thus far Star Wars comps have shown the same, none have run a war better then biological Tactical geniuses like Garm, Obi-wan, or Koon, but like i said you have made up your mind, just say freeze put a stop to this debate, put your foot down and say its over and tell us what to debate next so we can go at it till you make up your mind on that subject.

But they are getting there, and one day they probably will be smarter than us. Look it up. The Star Wars universe represents a civilization far more advanced than our own, then can build far more intelligent AI. Indeed a droid that can act like a human, have a personality and do things like run a criminal empire, be charismatic and outsmart his enemies is unthinkable today. You can't use the limits of todays technology to prove your point, only the possibilities.

 

And again, until you can provide an example of a droid of G0-T0's ability failing to defeat a human commander then it is a moot point, G0-T0 has never been tested in this arena, so we can't use it as argument.

 

I'd rather not, because I want people to agree with whatever decisions I make in the final scenario.

 

But I think at this point I've made my argument clear. At the very least I hope people will accept that G0-T0 can employ creative and unorthodox strategy i.e. suicide runs. I never asserted that he could actually beat Garm.

[tunewalker]

Some comparisons can be drawn between art and war in regards to creativity and skill. But they become different in terms of aesthetic quality. Art is designed to be aesthetically pleasing and this is something a computer cannot comprehend. I can assure you war is designed not aesthetically pleasing, it is logical and efficient.

 

I was never taught rules in my art classes. I was taught how to use tools properly but nobody ever told be anything about right and wrong when it comes to what I produce. There are techniques yes, and there is convention yes, you might even be taught how to replicate others work or reality, but there are no objectives and no 'right' way of going about things. I reaffirm that there are no rules in art, and I'm sure any actual artist would affirm that truth.

 

In the battle I pointed to the Republic had the advantage in terms of firepower, they still lost. And it seemed to be because the CIS outmaneuvered them. This is against a Jedi General we are talking about here, beaten by a droid. And that's just a standard tactical droid, who doesn't come close the G0-T0's advanced intelligence.

 

But wait what?!

 

As he has never we can not assume one way or another, I made the assumption of cant since no droid has outmanuevered people like Garm, mothma, Koon or Obi-wan.

 

You made the assumption that G0-T0 cannot do X because droids have never done X.

 

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Listen to yourself Tunewalker, you are using an absence of evidence i.e. no droid has ever done it, to back up your claims. This is ridiculous!

 

you made the assumption of can because...... GO-TO is smart in some areas so must be in all, after all if you asked a computer that specifically programmed to play chess to play Mahjong it would rule at it just like it did chess.... or hell tell it to Play star craft I am sure that Chess programmed computer could be competitive. Its smart enough after all and thats all that matters is processing power.

 

I'm not going to go in to how this is a straw man argument, but at the very least its proof that you accept my arguments have been backed up with some kind of theory, whereas yours is based on an absence of evidence.

 

Anyway as I said, given that G0-T0 is a planning droid and war is about planning and strategy, all G0-T0 would need is an understanding of the mechanics of war to be effective in it. Remember war does not have rules like chess does, the only rules that apply are the rules of nature, and G0-T0 understands these. Basically he is adaptable.

 

More straw man argument, and your common tendency to exaggerate in situations like these. I never said that G0-T0 can beat Thrawn, merely that he has the tactical ability to go toe-to-toe with human strategists and the ability to apply unorthodox strategy e.g. suicide runs, trench run defense etc. by exaggerating my argument you help no one.

 

Least of all yourself.

 

Nope all that has been said is that GO-TO can calculate outcomes thousands of times faster then any living being with out any limitations to his ability to concieve ideas. If that doesnt automatically make him the greatest strategist of all time I dont know what does.

 

In fictional work when speaking of fictional characters we usually use what are called "feats" to determine abilities or lack there of, of characters. The lack of showing some one doing something, like a Jedi never having shown the abilty to block Force Drain, or never having used Tutaminis, now some of these jedi were never force drained so we make the assumption that because they never did, they never could. Now by your statement of "absence of evidence" every jedi that has never been force drained should be capable of defending against it, after all we have an absence of evidence showing that they cant, and we know Drain is blockable.

 

Now there is a statement that there is no defense, but we know from other characters that have defended it that there is a defense. Yet jedi who have never been force drained are immidiately assumed to be unaware of and/or lacking this defense with complete absence of evidence to suggest one way or another.

 

These are feats. We determine a character is not likely to because it never has, but if we can determine something similar to said character can regularly then we assume the character can. For example force users often block baster bolts. There is nothing uncommon about that at all so we assume all can do it. Its rare for a Force user to block Force Drain so unless specifically stated other wise we assume they cant.

 

GO-TO same thing, he has never run a war before and it requires different kinds of tactics that he has not employed. We thus look at other droids specifically programmed for tactical warfare and see how they faired. In a majority of situations these droids fell short of their biological brethren, showing an incapability to handle unorthodox tactics or to think creatively on the spot, (like you said no plan survives contact) to survive against the tactical geniuses of their era. While a few have outmanuevered undertrained (or overtrained in some cases) individuals they have never out done a genuine tactical genious.

 

 

If you want an exersice in art with rules, write a 4 part Harmony and put in a few parallel 5th's take it to a music teacher and have him "grade" it dont be surprised if its filled with all kinds of marks telling you its wrong. While not all art has rules, there is rules to writing a symphony. Things you can do and things you cant, dont for an instant think that they limit the creativity you can have. The rules and the exceptions to them are vast allowing for a near infinite.... if not infinite number of possibilites. Especially when you right something that lasts 7 minutes. A computer could never hope to write a symphony even if it knew all the rules.....a person can.

[tunewalker]

But they are getting there, and one day they probably will be smarter than us. Look it up. The Star Wars universe represents a civilization far more advanced than our own, then can build far more intelligent AI. Indeed a droid that can act like a human, have a personality and do things like run a criminal empire, be charismatic and outsmart his enemies is unthinkable today. You can't use the limits of todays technology to prove your point, only the possibilities.

 

And again, until you can provide an example of a droid of G0-T0's ability failing to defeat a human commander then it is a moot point, G0-T0 has never been tested in this arena, so we can't use it as argument.

 

I'd rather not, because I want people to agree with whatever decisions I make in the final scenario.

 

But I think at this point I've made my argument clear. At the very least I hope people will accept that G0-T0 can employ creative and unorthodox strategy i.e. suicide runs. I never asserted that he could actually beat Garm.

 

They have been saying that for the last 20 years. Its still not there. To be greater then the human brain we must first understand the human brain.

 

"If our brains were simple enough for us to understand them, we'd be so simple that we couldn't." - Ian Stewart.

[Beniboybling]

GO-TO same thing, he has never run a war before and it requires different kinds of tactics that he has not employed. We thus look at other droids specifically programmed for tactical warfare and see how they faired. In a majority of situations these droids fell short of their biological brethren, showing an incapability to handle unorthodox tactics or to think creatively on the spot, (like you said no plan survives contact) to survive against the tactical geniuses of their era. While a few have outmanuevered undertrained (or overtrained in some cases) individuals they have never out done a genuine tactical genious.

 

If you want an exersice in art with rules, write a 4 part Harmony and put in a few parallel 5th's take it to a music teacher and have him "grade" it dont be surprised if its filled with all kinds of marks telling you its wrong. While not all art has rules, there is rules to writing a symphony. Things you can do and things you cant, dont for an instant think that they limit the creativity you can have. The rules and the exceptions to them are vast allowing for a near infinite.... if not infinite number of possibilites. Especially when you right something that lasts 7 minutes. A computer could never hope to write a symphony even if it knew all the rules.....a person can.

Yet as I have stated many times the intelligence of these droids is dwarfed in comparison to G0-T0, a pratical super-computer. And yet several of these droids have beaten humans on a strategic stage, and have thought creatively on the spot. As I have already said on many occasions processing various variables and outcomes to produce the most effective strategy is thinking creatively. Its what humans do every day and it's what wins wars.

 

If a droid can't think creatively, it can't employ strategy at all. Because you can't preprogram strategy without knowing the battlefield and the nature of your enemies. When in the field a droid will process this information and act accordingly. They formulate their own 'unique' strategies to counter the situation. That's called thinking creatively.

 

Not that Aayla Secura is a skilled tactician, and a Jedi, she is not lacking in ability. Heck even Obi-Wan Kenobi was outsmarted by a T-Series droid during the Battle of Ryloth and almost got killed because of it. If a basic tactical droid can in some instances outsmart a skilled tactician, I'd say one of the most advanced tactical droids out there can at the very least go toe-to-toe with Garm, Koon and Kenobi. At the very least he can employ creative strategy.

 

Which is why computers can't make art, but they can compose music. Look it up. But of course their remains something aesthetic about music that a computer can't understand, which limits it immensely.

 

I see nothing about war that a droid cannot understand. Its neither illogical nor aesthetic.

 

EDIT: I also take issue with your reducing my argument to a single point, and circumvent many of my other arguments simply my ignoring and sticking to assertions I've already challenged and you've failed to refute.

 

This debate is beginning to break down into nit-picking.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

They have been saying that for the last 20 years. Its still not there. To be greater then the human brain we must first understand the human brain.

 

"If our brains were simple enough for us to understand them, we'd be so simple that we couldn't." - Ian Stewart.

I never said that it could be greater that a human brain but you've had to understand that in the human brain their is a lot of untapped potential. In such a way a computer can perform better and will perform better in certain fields.

 

Like chess.

 

But of course in Star Wars droids are so much more advanced and in many instances are smarter than other humans. The fact they can create their own personalities and rebel against their programming is evidence of their intellect.

 

G0-T0 is certainly vastly more intelligent that most beings in the galaxy, which he manipulates on a daily basis.

[tunewalker]

Yet as I have stated many times the intelligence of these droids is dwarfed in comparison to G0-T0, a pratical super-computer. And yet several of these droids have beaten humans on a strategic stage, and have thought creatively on the spot. As I have already said on many occasions processing various variables and outcomes to produce the most effective strategy is thinking creatively. Its what humans do every day and it's what wins wars.

 

If a droid can't think creatively, it can't employ strategy at all. Because you can't preprogram strategy without knowing the battlefield and the nature of your enemies. When in the field a droid will process this information and act accordingly. They formulate their own 'unique' strategies to counter the situation. That's called thinking creatively.

 

Not that Aayla Secura is a skilled tactician, and a Jedi, she is not lacking in ability. Heck even Obi-Wan Kenobi was outsmarted by a T-Series droid during the Battle of Ryloth and almost got killed because of it. If a basic tactical droid can in some instances outsmart a skilled tactician, I'd say one of the most advanced tactical droids out there can at the very least go toe-to-toe with Garm, Koon and Kenobi. At the very least he can employ creative strategy.

 

Which is why computers can't make art, but they can compose music. Look it up. But of course their remains something aesthetic about music that a computer can't understand, which limits it immensely.

 

I see nothing about war that a droid cannot understand. Its neither illogical nor aesthetic.

 

EDIT: I also take issue with your reducing my argument to a single point, and circumvent many of my other arguments simply my ignoring and sticking to assertions I've already challenged and you've failed to refute.

 

This debate is beginning to break down into nit-picking.

 

proof of him dwarfing them? they are both super computers designed with different programming. GO-TO didnt break his programming the droid had 2 primary objectives that conflicted with one another. As such to do one it would have to ignore the other, thus it made the most logical choice about which to ignore.

 

Neither of us will ever convince the other, you have your mind made up, I have mine. We BOTH have a lack of evidence in this regard and we both have a belief neither of us will ever let go of. Like I said best way is just to put your foot down on it and let us argue other points.

 

 

Edit: I dont have a darn clue what your edit is talking about at all. I have countered every point that I have caught that had a point to be countered. You may have not believed any of them, but I have countered them.

Edited March 6, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

proof of him dwarfing them? they are both super computers designed with different programming. GO-TO didnt break his programming the droid had 2 primary objectives that conflicted with one another. As such to do one it would have to ignore the other, thus it made the most logical choice about which to ignore.

 

Neither of us will ever convince the other, you have your mind made up, I have mine. We BOTH have a lack of evidence in this regard and we both have a belief neither of us will ever let go of. Like I said best way is just to put your foot down on it and let us argue other points.

 

 

Edit: I dont have a darn clue what your edit is talking about at all. I have countered every point that I have caught that had a point to be countered. You may have not believed any of them, but I have countered them.

I'm talking about this:

 

Droids are not capable of creativity: first the word creativity is an empty phrase, its merely another word for the unorthodox, and I've already demonstrated how a droid is capable of unorthodox thought. G0-T0 and strategy droids can formulate "original" strategies just fine. They combine variables to fashion the most logical course of action, this may be a simple move, or it may be something far more complex and intricate. But as long as these "creative tactics" are firmly based in logic, a droid is not incapable of performing them, not incapable at all. And in turn can be predicted.

 

Again you cannot create something out of nothing, in all original strategies will be a series of actions that said command has not simply 'invented' - actions that exist and are possible within the parameters of reality. G0-T0 took his original programming and attempted to achieve his goal in a completely different way than intended, he decided to take control of a criminal empire and use that to assist the Republic, breaking free of the various parameters and rules that Republic had set out before him to pursue the most logical and effective action.

 

Really I can't state this enough, when it comes down to matters of logic a computer is no less capable of being creative than a human. Its merely a question of intelligence. Don't creative invisible barriers without backing them up with logical explanation - and I don't mean examples of dumb droids - I mean actual logical reasons.

 

Among other points, such as the three over paragraphs in the post above. In one of those paragraphs I reiterated that point, after seeing your assert that droids cannot think creatively again, despite failing to refute the evidence to the contrary. If you don't want to have this debate then fine, but if your going to counter my points counter all of them.

 

Anyway I really don't think that a T-series tactical droid comes close to G0-T0. These droids were given control over small armies, G0-T0 was given control of entire sectors and managed one of the largest criminal underworlds in the galaxy. He's also demonstrated grossly superior creative ability both in managing this situations and staging traps for the Jedi Exile, manipulating Visquis etc. etc. whereas T-series have made a lot of dumb mistakes.

 

He also demonstrates an acute understanding of human psychology, whereas T-Series demonstrate a complete lack of. This is in itself extremely impressive considering both how unique it is and how complex the human mind is.

[tunewalker]

I'm talking about this:

 

Droids are not capable of creativity: first the word creativity is an empty phrase, its merely another word for the unorthodox, and I've already demonstrated how a droid is capable of unorthodox thought. G0-T0 and strategy droids can formulate "original" strategies just fine. They combine variables to fashion the most logical course of action, this may be a simple move, or it may be something far more complex and intricate. But as long as these "creative tactics" are firmly based in logic, a droid is not incapable of performing them, not incapable at all. And in turn can be predicted.

 

Again you cannot create something out of nothing, in all original strategies will be a series of actions that said command has not simply 'invented' - actions that exist and are possible within the parameters of reality. G0-T0 took his original programming and attempted to achieve his goal in a completely different way than intended, he decided to take control of a criminal empire and use that to assist the Republic, breaking free of the various parameters and rules that Republic had set out before him to pursue the most logical and effective action.

 

Really I can't state this enough, when it comes down to matters of logic a computer is no less capable of being creative than a human. Its merely a question of intelligence. Don't creative invisible barriers without backing them up with logical explanation - and I don't mean examples of dumb droids - I mean actual logical reasons.

 

Among other points, such as the three over paragraphs in the post above. In one of those paragraphs I reiterated that point, after seeing your assert that droids cannot think creatively again, despite failing to refute the evidence to the contrary. If you don't want to have this debate then fine, but if your going to counter my points counter all of them.

 

Anyway I really don't think that a T-series tactical droid comes close to G0-T0. These droids were given control over small armies, G0-T0 was given control of entire sectors and managed one of the largest criminal underworlds in the galaxy. He's also demonstrated grossly superior creative ability both in managing this situations and staging traps for the Jedi Exile, manipulating Visquis etc. etc. whereas T-series have made a lot of dumb mistakes.

 

He also demonstrates an acute understanding of human psychology, whereas T-Series demonstrate a complete lack of. This is in itself extremely impressive considering both how unique it is and how complex the human mind is.

 

Creativity and unorthodox are not the same thing, and you have yet to show a single example of a droid preforming unorthodox or creative thought. You have said its logical that is all, that is not proof of a droid being capable of doing it.

 

What you create isnt always out of known strategies, some times its just life experience or knowledge of art or the way a particular animal moves. There is some times no rhyme or reason to what is created beyond a persons own life experiences that no one can understand save that person and least of all a droid.

 

Everything GO-TO did was within the boundries of his programming and primary objective. He was programmed with all the skills neccisary to preform that function that does not mean he can be an effective battle feild tactitian and it is very different then leading troops regardless of scale. One does not equal the other. Like I said its like saying Mothma is a skilled at fleet maneuvers because she planned a few of the basic stuff or the big picture stuff or ran an entire Rebellion or New Republic. She and GO-TO have a similar level of experience, they are the big picture people not the heat of the moment maneuvers people.

 

 

Like I said I already countered all your points. You claim you have given proof to contradict the idea that droids can think creatively, yet you have not. Nothing you have shown requires true creative thinking.

 

Macro managing an Underworld is not the same as Micro Managing a battle field. He ran a business using knowledge of economics, and human Psychology, as well as knowledge of planetary goods. As I have stated already on multiple occassions this is much different then Micro Managing a battle. A criminal empire like any business runs fairly smooth except for a couple hick ups that GO-TO takes care of using his knowledge of Psychology and economics. A battle is hands on all the way through for thousands upon thousands of problems that all happen at the same time and must be addressed simultaneously, running a criminal empire is not the same as maneuvers in a battle. Its no wonder the T-series couldnt handle the Human Psychology side of things while GO-TO could. GO-TO never had to deal with as many problems in as short a period of time, thus he had more room for these other programs. I assert they are just as powerful, just programmed with 2 different capabilities. GO-TO is a planning droid programmed with psychology and a knack for fixing big picture problems. The T series is a tactical droid designed to handle ever changing battle feild conditions and respond accordingly with known battle field tactics and counter-tactics, move and counter move all simultaneously on multiple fronts of the battle. One is Macro manageing the other is Micro managing, 2 very different approaches and requiring different skills.

 

 

Edit: if i missed a point it was not intentional I just write as my train of thought goes. and in response to the stuff taht I catch. Dont be mad if I missed something in my ramblings, of never ending circle arguments that neither of us will ever "win"

Edited March 6, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Animal movements? Life experiences? This is pure conjecture unless you can provide some examples of this being useful in a battle situation. I've never seen any strategies employed that do not first and foremost rely on information concerning the strength and weaknesses of the opponent and their own capabilities. Not the gait of a Tauntaun.

 

Anyway as I said, you can't create something out of nothing. All strategies are based on the information at hand. No strategy is completely abstract from the battlefield. For example TX-20 during the Battle of Ryloth used the natives as a human shield, rounding them up and gathering them around the anti-aircraft cannons in an extremely intelligent and creative manuevre. Exploiting the resources he had available and the known weaknesses of the enemy. He did not turn to page 112 in his tactical manual where it reads, "use twi'leks to shield cannons." He made it up on the spot.

 

G0-T0 himself went above and beyond his programming and employed creative thought to fufil his primary objective. Nowhere in his programming did it say anything about how to take control of criminal organisation and manipulate/intimidate humans with fake holographic projectors. G0-T0 took the initiative and did that himself based on the resources he had at hand. If that is not creative thinking then I don't know what is.

 

Nor did it anywhere state how to hack into and control droids for his own end or provide him with a textbook strategy as to how to prevent the remote from reactivating the Mass Shadow Generator. Another unique move from G0-T0.

 

Essentially you are trying to claim that no droid has every done anything that was originally, that's a farcical claim. There are countless examples, heck I bring up what Warren did about R2-D2 spraying the B2 battle droids to slip them up, nowhere in his manual did it note that as a use of his oil slick, its certainly not designed as a weapon.

 

And yeah, he accidentally set them on fire. LOL.

 

And finally, G0-T0 managed events on both a mirco and macro scale. For example when he outmaneuvered Visquis' attempt to destroy him. When he had the Jedi Exile hunted down, when he manipulated members of the Ebon Hawk crew. He didn't just manage the Exchange's finances. He had to respond and adapt to the unpredictable.

 

EDIT: However on top of that, G0-T0 could just apply the strategic upgrades which likely improve one's ability to respond to battlefield events on a micro level, rather than supply strategies you can look up on Wookieepedia.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Furthermore, just because G0-T0 remained within the bounds of his programming does not mean he was not creative. He was given a directive, save the Republic. How he went about that became completely up to him.