Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Warren-Stride]

Besides, the order comes from the Supreme commander, which Mothma wouldn't need to become. It'd be Wedge or Kenobi....

 

The Order comes from the Supreme Chancellor, aka the Head of State.

[Warren-Stride]

Besides, why would the Kaminoans even tell G0-T0? Hmm? Not out of Loyalty, there's no reason. Not telling him could be used as a bartering tool, should the AE secure Kamino, and not telling G0-T0 won't lead to issues as G0-T0 is not aware they're hiding something.

 

The only reason the Kaminoans were loyal to the Republic is because the Republic was paying them. And they cloned a notorious criminal and bounty hunter. I don't think they'd have any moral issue with being allies with G0-T0. Not telling him would be putting their world in danger and if they do tell him, they could get a nice bonus. There's no reason that the Kaminoans wouldn't cooperate fully with the DS.

[Canino]

Even though we have the Order 66 debate on the back burner, someone please give a reasonable explanation for G0-T0 knowing or learning about Order 66. And no, not 'he's a droid lols' There needs to be a good reason for it.

 

Further, I don't think G0-T0 knows about the Clones.

 

G0-T0, knowing his enemy, goes to Kamino, the home of clones. There, he inquires to the Kaminoans about possible weaknesses, programming features, and contingency plans. Why those things? He could use all of them against them.

 

Weaknesses, such as how fit they are, their intelligence, training, etc.

Features, such as perimeters that may interfere (like his own), tactics, comradery (for use in captives), and this may potentially reveal 66..

 

Contingency plans, well, lets look closer. The definition is, "a plan or procedure that will take effect if an emergency occurs; emergency plan." (Dictionary.com) Furthermore, Wikipedia defines it as, " A contingency plan is a plan devised for an outcome other than in the usual (expected) plan. It is often used for risk management when an exceptional risk that, though unlikely, would have catastrophic consequences."

 

Now, why would G0-T0 inquire about that? To learn the about the droids psychology, something he liked, and in fact, had a great deal of knowledge in. Contingency plans not only show how the clones react, but how their entire programming, and mind works. G0-T0, besides understanding psychology, might ask for them as he himself most definitely would have contingency plans, being a planning droid, and understand the value in them.

 

Furthermore, G0-T0 knows how powerful a Jedi is. That's the entire reason he placed the bounty on the Jedi, and wanted the Exile. Knowing he is facing Jedi, he would want to know the most effective ways to destroy them. If Jedi use clones as weapons, then the clones are a weakness of the Jedi. Remove them, and the Jedi are much weaker.

 

As you can see, G0-T0 has reason to look for the plans, and people who can give them to him.

[Beniboybling]

HE SAID FFFRRRREEEEEEEEEEEZZZZEEEE.

 

But seriously, Mothma would never, ever, issue order 66. What's to say she doesn't just tell them to never accept that command.

 

She's the type of person to think that if Kenobi ever went against her, there is going to be a reason and shed likely be on the wrong here.

 

Besides, the order comes from the Supreme commander, which Mothma wouldn't need to become. It'd be Wedge or Kenobi....

Considering that Order 66 is a secret, Mothma wouldn't know about it.

 

And wasn't Mothma originally Commander-in-Chief on the Alliance Military? Anyway, in the Kaggath the Commander-in-Chief would have to be the Head of State or Second-in-Command for obvious reasons.

 

Anyway lets wait till all the information is on the table.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Even though we have the Order 66 debate on the back burner, someone please give a reasonable explanation for G0-T0 knowing or learning about Order 66. And no, not 'he's a droid lols' There needs to be a good reason for it.

 

Further, I don't think G0-T0 knows about the Clones.

Well, I thought the Kaminoans might just tell him. Kinda important and all.

 

I mean the Kaminoans are his allies, and he does own the cloning facilities...

 

But again, this question can't be fully answered until the episode comes out. So yeah, FREEZE.

[Beniboybling]

Besides, why would the Kaminoans even tell G0-T0? Hmm? Not out of Loyalty, there's no reason. Not telling him could be used as a bartering tool, should the AE secure Kamino, and not telling G0-T0 won't lead to issues as G0-T0 is not aware they're hiding something.

I'd just like to make clear here that the Kaminoans are loyal and therefore want to DS to win.

 

But anyway, what's the word I'm looking for? Oh yeah: FREEZE.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

On an entirely unrelated note, I just rerolled my Sith Warrior and snagged the name Vindicaa!

 

Bwhahahahaha!

[Aurbere]

I'm not sure why you don't think G0-T0 knows about the clones, but if he doesn't, his allies and the entire planet of Kamino does.

 

Ignoring Order 66 because Beni said to (still don't see how it would work), but I will answer this.

 

I was under the impression that specifics were unknown to other factions, just vague stuff like odds and some such. At least, I think that's what Beni said in one of the recent Kaggaths.

[Beniboybling]

Ignoring Order 66 because Beni said to (still don't see how it would work), but I will answer this.

 

I was under the impression that specifics were unknown to other factions, just vague stuff like odds and some such. At least, I think that's what Beni said in one of the recent Kaggaths.

This correct, all they have knowledge of is the Head of State and Second in Command, the planets, and the numbers of your force. i'd say he'd soon find out, but he'd have to identify them as clones first.

[Aurbere]

This correct, all they have knowledge of is the Head of State and Second in Command, the planets, and the numbers of your force. i'd say he'd soon find out, but he'd have to identify them as clones first.

 

And by then it will be too late!

[Warren-Stride]

This correct, all they have knowledge of is the Head of State and Second in Command, the planets, and the numbers of your force. i'd say he'd soon find out, but he'd have to identify them as clones first.

 

 

Somehow I don't think it'll be difficult to identify the clones, with their signature helmets and, in this case, orange coloring. Also, there's no way that the AE can keep its military force secret. If they want their people to have any faith in their government at all they'll need to know who is fighting for them. Why the heck would the AE NOT brag about how awesome their troops are to the people? The AE has trillions of people under its rule that want to know they're safe.

 

On a similar note, if Mon Mothma wants to stay holed up somewhere that's fine. But that's not what a Head of State does. Mon Mothma will have to make public appearances to inspire the masses, lest they lose respect for her and confidence in her rule. Either that, or holocommunications. Which can be traced.

[Aurbere]

 

Somehow I don't think it'll be difficult to identify the clones, with their signature helmets and, in this case, orange coloring. Also, there's no way that the AE can keep its military force secret. If they want their people to have any faith in their government at all they'll need to know who is fighting for them. Why the heck would the AE NOT brag about how awesome their troops are to the people? The AE has trillions of people under its rule that want to know they're safe.

 

On a similar note, if Mon Mothma wants to stay holed up somewhere that's fine. But that's not what a Head of State does. Mon Mothma will have to make public appearances to inspire the masses, lest they lose respect for her and confidence in her rule. Either that, or holocommunications. Which can be traced.

 

Great idea. Let's parade about in the middle of a war! Smashing!

[ShadowMudkip]

 

Somehow I don't think it'll be difficult to identify the clones, with their signature helmets and, in this case, orange coloring. Also, there's no way that the AE can keep its military force secret. If they want their people to have any faith in their government at all they'll need to know who is fighting for them. Why the heck would the AE NOT brag about how awesome their troops are to the people? The AE has trillions of people under its rule that want to know they're safe.

 

On a similar note, if Mon Mothma wants to stay holed up somewhere that's fine. But that's not what a Head of State does. Mon Mothma will have to make public appearances to inspire the masses, lest they lose respect for her and confidence in her rule. Either that, or holocommunications. Which can be traced.

 

 

I don't think a head of state would parade around during a war. Even better a war with droids and assassins.

[Warren-Stride]

Great idea. Let's parade about in the middle of a war! Smashing!

 

This literally happens all the time. Like, every war ever.

 

Even if it's not a parade, they've gotta release some kind of propaganda. I mean, if you're saying that the AE would release zero promotional posters or images or holorecording of their troops, that's fine, that's even better for the DS.

 

However, this isn't anyone's choice other than the AE leadership. And inspiring the people is one of the things the Alliance prided itself upon. Obviously its leader is going to want to sooth the populace's fears.

[Warren-Stride]

I don't think a head of state would parade around during a war. Even better a war with droids and assassins.

 

XD No, I'm not saying Mon Mothma would parade around. However, look at leaders in similar positions. Did Chancellor Palpatine never go to the Senate because the CIS had a ton of assassins and droids? No. Because doing that would lose face. Obviously they would be heavily guarded. But a cowering leader is one of the quickest ways to lose moral. She's still got to give speeches, speak with local leaders, etc.

 

Also, Mon Mothma doesn't know about any assassins other than Guri. PROXY, HK-01, and even the Terror Troopers are hidden from her knowledge at the start.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[tunewalker]

XD No, I'm not saying Mon Mothma would parade around. However, look at leaders in similar positions. Did Chancellor Palpatine never go to the Senate because the CIS had a ton of assassins and droids? No. Because doing that would lose face. Obviously they would be heavily guarded. But a cowering leader is one of the quickest ways to lose moral. She's still got to give speeches, speak with local leaders, etc.

 

Also, Mon Mothma doesn't know about any assassins other than Guri. PROXY, HK-01, and even the Terror Troopers are hidden from her knowledge at the start.

 

I'd also like to note Mothma is very hands on leader for her sodliers. She would be there to relay or be a part of any attack plan, but this isnt neccisarily making her more vulnerable to assassins. Any time she does this she would literally be surrounded heavily be all kinds of gaurds. I doubt any assassination would be at all easy to pull off during these moments, after all Mothma did it all the time during the rebellion and the empire never caught her.

[ShadowMudkip]

Warren are you still counting on Wat Tambor defecting to the DS? Because I don't think that will happen.

[Warren-Stride]

Warren are you still counting on Wat Tambor defecting to the DS? Because I don't think that will happen.

 

I'm not counting on it. HK-01 will take care of the droids regardless of defection.

 

That being said, Wat Tambor is easily manipulated, his last words were "Please, I'll give you anything. Anything you want!" Somehow I think that, under threat of death, he would direct the Techno Union to defect.

 

But again, not necessary.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Aurbere]

I'm not counting on it. HK-01 will take care of the droids regardless of defection.

 

That being said, Wat Tambor is easily manipulated, his last words were "Please, I'll give you anything. Anything you want!" Somehow I think that, under threat of death, he would direct the Techno Union to defect.

 

But again, not necessary.

 

His last words to the Sith Lord who had cornered him after going on a murderous rampage. He's seen worse, yeah?

[Selenial]

XD No, I'm not saying Mon Mothma would parade around. However, look at leaders in similar positions. Did Chancellor Palpatine never go to the Senate because the CIS had a ton of assassins and droids? No. Because doing that would lose face. Obviously they would be heavily guarded. But a cowering leader is one of the quickest ways to lose moral. She's still got to give speeches, speak with local leaders, etc.

 

Also, Mon Mothma doesn't know about any assassins other than Guri. PROXY, HK-01, and even the Terror Troopers are hidden from her knowledge at the start.

 

Palpatine spoke on the safest planet in the galaxy and was still protected by a Ray Shield during senate meetings.

[Beniboybling]

Well there you go, you have shown precendence for that kind of tactic, that said though again its IMPOSSIBLE to program unpredictable war tactics. You can be programmed with all the known tactics in the galaxy and then still find yourself out maneuvered by one some one just made up out of no where that as far as you can tell makes no sense, but because its a tactic they have never seen they have no idea what to do or how to react, that is the deffinition of by the book, something that droid commanders are ONLY capable of as their tactics are programmed into them rather then thought up on the spot.

I'd just like to point out that this is just plain wrong. Unpredictable tactics are still tactics. By the book is a set of other tactics. If G0-T0 is programmed with a range of different tactics some of those will be "unpredictable" e.g. unorthodox and others will be standard. Remembering that their is nothing 'special' or 'human' about these terms, they are totally defined by the norm, what people normally do. If anything a droid will be more unpredictable, because they have the processing power to consider every possible outcome and employ the most likely one.

 

Now of course for droids with limited programming you have a point, there is a small set of tactics that they can follow - mainly the orthodox. But for an infrastructure and planning droid like G0-T0 with warfare upgrades? He'll consider practically ever possible angle and use the best one, as well as all possible scenarios he might encounter.

 

And before you come up with the argument, oh humans can make up stuff. No the can't, you can't make something from nothing, and that includes strategies. The human brain is merely an advanced computer.

[Warren-Stride]

And before you come up with the argument, oh humans can make up stuff. No they can't, you can't make something from nothing, and that includes strategies. The human brain is merely an advanced computer.

 

Thank goodness someone understands.

 

You know, I think all this droid supremacy stuff is slowly turning me into a droid. I was beginning to get personally offended by how much people have been underestimating droids.

[Selenial]

I'd just like to point out that this is just plain wrong. Unpredictable tactics are still tactics. By the book is a set of other tactics. If G0-T0 is programmed with a range of different tactics some of those will be "unpredictable" e.g. unorthodox and others will be standard. Remembering that their is nothing 'special' or 'human' about these terms, they are totally defined by the norm, what people normally do. If anything a droid will be more unpredictable, because they have the processing power to consider every possible outcome and employ the most likely one.

 

Now of course for droids with limited programming you have a point, there is a small set of tactics that they can follow - mainly the orthodox. But for an infrastructure and planning droid like G0-T0 with warfare upgrades? He'll consider practically ever possible angle and use the best one, as well as all possible scenarios he might encounter.

 

And before you come up with the argument, oh humans can make up stuff. No the can't, you can't make something from nothing, and that includes strategies. The human brain is merely an advanced computer.

 

Id just like to point out here that this is just plain wrong.

 

Take the battle of crystophsis, would a droid ever have said "let's not deliver supplies, let's turn their own missiles against them" and shattered an impenetrable blockade?

 

Would Thrawn, not have been countered at every turn by a DROID, that had a decent memory core.

 

Would the Imperials and rebels, not use droid commanders?

 

The point is it's been shown multiple times that droids work terribly against humans. Why? Because humans are feisty, they are adaptable and unpredictable.

 

Anything G0-T0 gets from a package is pre promgrammed, and the best strategies in The world are not readily available.

 

We also saw, multiple times, that "tactical" droids formulate entire plans based on one screw, IE, plan on the enemy going left, because that makes the most sense.

And then the human says, they expect us to go left, so let's go right, and the droid is foiled because they used rpe programmed statistics.

 

"Two roads divulge in a yellow wood, and I took the road less travelled by"

 

We don't exactly like the norm, as a race

 

TL;DR: Every tactic G0-T0 gets is pre programmed and based on predictability, something that None of the AE Are... Predictable.Human tacticians > Droids.

[Selenial]

Thank goodness someone understands.

 

You know, I think all this droid supremacy stuff is slowly turning me into a droid. I was beginning to get personally offended by how much people have been underestimating droids.

 

Indeed, because if there's one glaring characteristic of droids, it's their overconfidence and lack of faith in Human "meatbags"

[Beniboybling]

Id just like to point out here that this is just plain wrong.

 

Take the battle of crystophsis, would a droid ever have said "let's not deliver supplies, let's turn their own missiles against them" and shattered an impenetrable blockade?

 

Would Thrawn, not have been countered at every turn by a DROID, that had a decent memory core.

 

Would the Imperials and rebels, not use droid commanders?

 

The point is it's been shown multiple times that droids work terribly against humans. Why? Because humans are feisty, they are adaptable and unpredictable.

 

Anything G0-T0 gets from a package is pre promgrammed, and the best strategies in The world are not readily available.

 

We also saw, multiple times, that "tactical" droids formulate entire plans based on one screw, IE, plan on the enemy going left, because that makes the most sense.

And then the human says, they expect us to go left, so let's go right, and the droid is foiled because they used rpe programmed statistics.

 

"Two roads divulge in a yellow wood, and I took the road less travelled by"

 

We don't exactly like the norm, as a race

 

TL;DR: Every tactic G0-T0 gets is pre programmed and based on predictability, something that None of the AE Are... Predictable.Human tacticians > Droids.

You missed a key paragraph:

 

Now of course for droids with limited programming you have a point, there is a small set of tactics that they can follow - mainly the orthodox. But for an infrastructure and planning droid like G0-T0 with warfare upgrades? He'll consider practically ever possible angle and use the best one, as well as all possible scenarios he might encounter.

 

I'm just going to go ahead and state G0-T0's "brain" is superior to an average humans - at least in terms of what they can consciously use. Anyway, your approaching the system incorrectly here. Its a question of the logical vs the illogical. The stuff high-functioning droids can't predict is the illogical stuff, stupid concepts like love and taking the less travelled path because YOLO. But you just try that it a game of strategy, and watch yourself fail.

 

Because in strategy its a question of the logical, and only the logical, the logical can always be predicted. And you don't have to be a human to come up with supremely logical i.e. unorthodox, strategies. Heck a lot of the times its the orthodox that are the illogical, but humans don't push past that purely out of fear of the unknown.

 

Its a game of chess, and just try and beat a computer at chess. And by computer I mean G0-T0.

 

And the important thing is G0-T0 can command entire fleets himself. He'll just relay the orders through the battle droids, who being droids who he can assume control of, will execute is strategies to the letter.

 

I'd add to that that G0-T0 can react faster, much faster. Altogether I think we should remember that sure the droids employed by the CIS were shoddy half-bit programs. But G0-T0 is an incredibly advanced AI. He also undestands human psychology, which means he's less likely to be caught off guard by their idiosyncrasies.

 

EDIT: I think people get it into their heads that droids are bad because they are droids. But they are not. We are dealing with AI here, the logical facultieis of which work just the same way as humans. The only reason that droids tend to be inferior is because they have the equivalent of pea-sized brains. While humans run around with supercomputers in their heads - tapped potential varying from subject to subject. Basically, WE ARE ALL DROIDS!

Edited March 5, 2014 by Beniboybling