Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Warren-Stride]

A direct comparison is required.

 

There isn't one in lore.

 

Or do you want me to rain down numbers on this debate like last time?

Edited March 4, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

There isn't one in lore.

 

Or do you want me to rain down numbers on this debate like last time?

Yes, I mean in terms of statistics.

 

On a basic level, in order to match the turbolaster output of a ISD-II you would require a roughly 24 Interceptor class frigates. Assuming they had the same shielding, in such an engagement we are looking at mutual destrution. However the Interceptors have inferior shields, by how much I'd have to see but what I can say for sure is that the Interceptors would be destroyed and the ISD-II would survive.

 

Now we have to factor in additional weaponary and other factors into this, but that gives you a basic idea.

 

ISDs pwn.

 

EDIT: However I think those stats for the Interceptor are taken directly from EaW - so I'd have to check what it gives an ISD and then work out a ratio/percentage before calling anything accurate. I suspect this may be lopsided.

[Warren-Stride]

The Universal Tech Rule doesn't apply here, all the vessels in question are from the exact same time period. It is what it is, nothing more. Nonetheless in terms of pure firepower I think Tunewalker is correct that the AE has an advantage.

 

I mean, yes, but no.

 

Yes, they are all from the same time period.

 

But the Imperial Mark-II has over 100 turbolasers.

 

The Interdictor Frigate has 6.

 

The reason this is unfair is because the only reason the Interdictor has six is because of the in-game mechanics. Look at the Keldabe-class battleship. It only has 5 turbolasers (due to in-game mechanics), and yet, it could, apparently, keep up with the Star Destroyers in Forces of Corruption.

 

So really, comparing the armaments isn't fair. Because it's either A.) Going to make the Black Sun Navy crumple like paper or B.) Make each Interdictor have more firepower than a Keldabe-class battleship. And neither of those options are more valid than the other.

[Warren-Stride]

EDIT: However I think those stats for the Interceptor are taken directly from EaW - so I'd have to check what it gives an ISD and then work out a ratio/percentage before calling anything accurate. I suspect this may be lopsided.

 

The stats for the Forces of Corruption ships are:

 

Imperial Star Destroyer

4 turbolasers

2 ion cannons

 

Interdictor-class Frigate

2 turbolasers

1 missile launcher

 

That seems like a more plausible comparison to me.

[Aurbere]

Death Squadron at its height was the most powerful fleet ever collected, and it was comprised of most of the most powerful and advanced Star Destroyers in the galaxy. The Executor and its primary escort of only five Star Destroyers annihilated everything it came across. When Endor came around, the only thing that saved the rebel fleet was the death of the Emperor. It has been noted several times that Death Squadron would have won if they continued the fight.

 

Next you factor in the 181st Imperial Fighter Wing, which was the greatest threat to Rogue Squadron and was able to turn the tides of battle single-handedly.

[Warren-Stride]

Death Squadron at its height was the most powerful fleet ever collected, and it was comprised of most of the most powerful and advanced Star Destroyers in the galaxy.

 

I agree, of course. However, Death Squadron is, as you point out, a fleet. As in, a unit that moves as one and is most effective while it is together. Split apart, it would fair much worse.

 

This is where it hurts the AE to have two fleets, no matter how advanced. The minute those fleets split apart, their power diminishes dramatically. Unfortunately, the AE has five worlds to defend, and is, most likely, the one going on the offensive. Unless the AE wants to leave some of the most heavily populated worlds in the galaxy to the mercy of a DS counter-strike, they're going to have to leave ships behind to defend. Thus decreasing their offensive power.

[Warren-Stride]

The Executor and its primary escort of only five Star Destroyers annihilated everything it came across.

 

Do you get the Executor?

 

Even so, it took one A-wing to take it down. That scenario could easily be replicated.

[Aurbere]

I agree, of course. However, Death Squadron is, as you point out, a fleet. As in, a unit that moves as one and is most effective while it is together. Split apart, it would fair much worse.

 

This is where it hurts the AE to have two fleets, no matter how advanced. The minute those fleets split apart, their power diminishes dramatically. Unfortunately, the AE has five worlds to defend, and is, most likely, the one going on the offensive. Unless the AE wants to leave some of the most heavily populated worlds in the galaxy to the mercy of a DS counter-strike, they're going to have to leave ships behind to defend. Thus decreasing their offensive power.

 

Only six of the AE's ships can take out large fleets single-handedly, I'm not worried.

 

That's the thing, the DS is at a disadvantage as well. If it wants to go on the offensive, it leaves itself open to attack as well. The fact is, the DS has to deploy more of its forces to attacks than the AE does. There's also the matter of tactics. You can program droids for that if you want, but they simply won't be as effective as the AE's tacticians.

[Aurbere]

Do you get the Executor?

 

Even so, it took one A-wing to take it down. That scenario could easily be replicated.

 

Yes, and no, it isn't that simple. Like at all.

[Beniboybling]

The stats for the Forces of Corruption ships are:

 

Imperial Star Destroyer

4 turbolasers

2 ion cannons

 

Interdictor-class Frigate

2 turbolasers

1 missile launcher

 

That seems like a more plausible comparison to me.

Yeah I wouldn't call that plausible either. That would mean it would have roughly 60 turbolaser batteries... yah no.

 

I think I'll dismiss game mechanics altogether concerning this buisness, it could well be that these were turbolaser batteries and therefore affixed with more than one turbolaser, or its just mechanics.

 

Anyway according to the Wookiee the Interceptor is 175 metres. But that is confirmed to be unsourced and seems a little off seeing as it is far larger in-game (larger than a Crusader-class corvette) and its classed as a frigate.

 

And given it shields equal to a Nebulon, which is also a frigate and a more plausible 300 metres. I'd say using the Nebulon as a base class would be fairly accurate. And the armament for that is:

 

12 turbolasers

12 laser cannons

 

I leave proton torpedos at 3 - seems accurate.

 

Still in terms of turbolasers, the DS would still require roughly 12 Interceptors to match the firepower of one ISD. Well I tell a lie, considering that 35% of the batteries on the ISD are in fact heavy turbolaser batteries.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

In regards to space, I don't think we should so readily assume that the AE 'dominates' in this category. And this is because they are up against a considerable numerical advantage, purely in terms of numbers the AE are outnumbered roughly 4 to 1. If we take into account the fact that the majority of the AE fleet is comprised of Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers (of which roughly 4 = Star Destroyer) we are talking outnumbered roughly 8 to 1.

 

Now OOM command battle droids may be a bit shoddy when it comes to tactical ability, but I expect that G0-T0 could easily coordinate them en masse via a central droid computer. And many times during the war the CIS defeated the Republic, despite tactical inferiority, simply thoroughly overwhelming numerical odds. The same applies for ground.

 

Just something to consider.

 

Like I said, the AE has the most powerful fleet ever built, which has some of the most powerful and advanced Star Destroyers of the era, in its navy. The dreadnaughts, also, were considered to be very powerful vessels in their own right.

 

You can upgrade OOM droids, but you have to admit that nothing G0-T0 does will allow them to match the ingenious minds of the AE's tacticians. Even worse for the DS is that Obi-Wan and Plo Koon have vast amounts of experience in fighting droid armies (Kenobi himself revolutionized Republic warfare and devised tactics that easily dealt with the superior numbers of the Confederacy), and they have overcome incredible odds on a regular basis. Think about it, a single Lucrehulk carries over 100,000 battle droids. This is already ten times the size of a clone legion. Now consider that there can be multiple Lucrehulk battleships in a single invasion fleet, and you have a massive droid army. Kenobi and Koon have dealt with these kinds of odds in practically every battle they've ever been in.

 

Edit: We also have to consider the 181st Fighter Wing. This wing regularly engaged Rogue Squadron, nearly defeating them on occasion. The only thing that stopped them from being at full effectiveness was bureaucracy, infighting, conflicting orders (Endor), and Rogue Squadron itself.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

Even worse for the DS is that Obi-Wan and Plo Koon have vast amounts of experience in fighting droid armies (Kenobi himself revolutionized Republic warfare and devised tactics that easily dealt with the superior numbers of the Confederacy), and they have overcome incredible odds on a regular basis. Think about it, a single Lucrehulk carries over 100,000 battle droids. This is already ten times the size of a clone legion. Now consider that there can be multiple Lucrehulk battleships in a single invasion fleet, and you have a massive droid army. Kenobi and Koon have dealt with these kinds of odds in practically every battle they've ever been in.

Yes they have, but surely they'd have done so with more than 10,000 troops.

 

The 212th Attack Battalion rarely if ever goes in by itself.

[tunewalker]

Yeah I wouldn't call that plausible either. That would mean it would have roughly 60 turbolaser batteries... yah no.

 

I think I'll dismiss game mechanics altogether concerning this buisness, it could well be that these were turbolaser batteries and therefore affixed with more than one turbolaser, or its just mechanics.

 

Anyway according to the Wookiee the Interceptor is 175 metres. But that is confirmed to be unsourced and seems a little off seeing as it is far larger in-game (larger than a Crusader-class corvette) and its classed as a frigate.

 

And given it shields equal to a Nebulon, which is also a frigate and a more plausible 300 metres. I'd say using the Nebulon as a base class would be fairly accurate. And the armament for that is:

 

12 turbolasers

12 laser cannons

 

I leave proton torpedos at 3 - seems accurate.

 

Still in terms of turbolasers, the DS would still require roughly 12 Interceptors to match the firepower of one ISD. Well I tell a lie, considering that 35% of the batteries on the ISD are in fact heavy turbolaser batteries.

 

Yep pretty much what I am looking at, but again I would like to note, while the ISD has more shields and armor then 1 of these ships and likely has more shields and armor then 4 of these ships combined once you start getting into the point where the smaller ships equal it in fire power the smaller ships OVERALL surpass it in shield strength and armor, but again we are talking tatics after that, and I believe that is where the AE takes its definitive edge in space combat.

 

Garm, Mothma, Koon, and Obi are all much better then any droid could ever hope to be. Clone commanders are better then most droids in tactics as well.

[Selenial]

Do I need to go I to the whole Droids brains sucking thing?

Because they'd get defective from one to two, upgrades at the level of piloting a tank, or STAP.

 

How are they meant to get tactical packages that have in depth tactics to match the AE, when they can barely pilot tanks?

 

Sure, G0-T0 could command them, but from stealth would really make him vulnerable to tracking.

 

Same for Guri, and PROXY...

[tunewalker]

Do I need to go I to the whole Droids brains sucking thing?

Because they'd get defective from one to two, upgrades at the level of piloting a tank, or STAP.

 

How are they meant to get tactical packages that have in depth tactics to match the AE, when they can barely pilot tanks?

 

Sure, G0-T0 could command them, but from stealth would really make him vulnerable to tracking.

 

Same for Guri, and PROXY...

 

They are never going to match the AE in tactics, but there are droids as Warren has pointed out specifically designed to have conventional tactics in their brains. That doesnt mean they will ever be as good as noted living tactitians.

[Selenial]

They are never going to match the AE in tactics, but there are droids as Warren has pointed out specifically designed to have conventional tactics in their brains. That doesnt mean they will ever be as good as noted living tactitians.

 

Conventional tactics is like a clone captain level.

 

Kenobi has never used Conventional tactics

[tunewalker]

Conventional tactics is like a clone captain level.

 

Kenobi has never used Conventional tactics

 

agreed, which is why I said the AE tactics will beat the DS. Though we should give some credit to conventional tactics, there is a reason they became the conventional way of doing things. They work. But ya ultimately its not going to match Garm, Mothma, Obi, or Koon.

[Canino]

You guys keep talking about tactics, but where do you see tactics actually coming up? Unless the AE comes to the DS, they won't, as G0-T0 will simply initiate Order 66, hack into the droids, and the Kaggath is over. 27 force users dead, and one Chancellor (courtesy of the Techno Union's droids or an assassin). If the AE comes to the DS, yes tactics become more of a factor. However, the AE has multiple disadvantages to coming to the DS, such as terrain, bootlenecks, droid hacking, and suicide tactics.

 

Don't take this the wrong way. The AE does win the tactics game, no doubt. But in all actuality, I don't see that being very much a factor in the Kaggath, considering G0-T0 isn't going to fight conventionally (as in being an active militant).

Edited March 4, 2014 by Canino

[Selenial]

You guys keep talking about tactics, but where do you see tactics actually coming up? Unless the AE comes to the DS, they won't, as G0-T0 will simply initiate Order 66, hack into the droids, and the Kaggath is over. 27 force users dead, and one Chancellor (courtesy of the Techno Union's droids or an assassin). If the AE comes to the DS, yes tactics become more of a factor. However, the AE has multiple disadvantages to coming to the DS, such as terrain, bootlenecks, droid hacking, and suicide tactics.

 

Don't take this the wrong way. The AE does win the tactics game, no doubt. But in all actuality, I don't see that being very much a factor in the Kaggath, considering G0-T0 isn't going to fight conventionally (as in being an active militant).

 

HE SAID FFFRRRREEEEEEEEEEEZZZZEEEE.

 

But seriously, Mothma would never, ever, issue order 66. What's to say she doesn't just tell them to never accept that command.

 

She's the type of person to think that if Kenobi ever went against her, there is going to be a reason and shed likely be on the wrong here.

 

Besides, the order comes from the Supreme commander, which Mothma wouldn't need to become. It'd be Wedge or Kenobi....

[Canino]

HE SAID FFFRRRREEEEEEEEEEEZZZZEEEE.

 

But seriously, Mothma would never, ever, issue order 66. What's to say she doesn't just tell them to never accept that command.

 

She's the type of person to think that if Kenobi ever went against her, there is going to be a reason and shed likely be on the wrong here.

 

Besides, the order comes from the Supreme commander, which Mothma wouldn't need to become. It'd be Wedge or Kenobi....

QUESTION: Why are we freezing? Just wondering... I mean, it doesn't bother me, just wondering. Are you just contemplating my brilliance Beni?

 

Oh, and it doesn't matter if Mothma, Kenobi, or Koon does it. Even Garm can do it. PROXY can become any of them- hell, Kenobi would be preferable.

[Aurbere]

You guys keep talking about tactics, but where do you see tactics actually coming up? Unless the AE comes to the DS, they won't, as G0-T0 will simply initiate Order 66, hack into the droids, and the Kaggath is over. 27 force users dead, and one Chancellor (courtesy of the Techno Union's droids or an assassin). If the AE comes to the DS, yes tactics become more of a factor. However, the AE has multiple disadvantages to coming to the DS, such as terrain, bootlenecks, droid hacking, and suicide tactics.

 

Don't take this the wrong way. The AE does win the tactics game, no doubt. But in all actuality, I don't see that being very much a factor in the Kaggath, considering G0-T0 isn't going to fight conventionally (as in being an active militant).

 

Even though we have the Order 66 debate on the back burner, someone please give a reasonable explanation for G0-T0 knowing or learning about Order 66. And no, not 'he's a droid lols' There needs to be a good reason for it.

 

Further, I don't think G0-T0 knows about the Clones.

[Aurbere]

QUESTION: Why are we freezing? Just wondering... I mean, it doesn't bother me, just wondering. Are you just contemplating my brilliance Beni?

 

Oh, and it doesn't matter if Mothma, Kenobi, or Koon does it. Even Garm can do it. PROXY can become any of them- hell, Kenobi would be preferable.

 

Wait, the Jedi Master that doesn't know about Order 66 tells his own clone army to execute the Jedi-killing order? Jeez, I didn't think Obi-Wan was suicidal.

[Selenial]

Even though we have the Order 66 debate on the back burner, someone please give a reasonable explanation for G0-T0 knowing or learning about Order 66. And no, not 'he's a droid lols' There needs to be a good reason for it.

 

Further, I don't think G0-T0 knows about the Clones.

 

Supposedly the Kaminoans, which is beyond belief anyway, IMO, because it appears to have been a very tiny number (4-5) kaminoans who set this up.

 

Besides, why would the Kaminoans even tell G0-T0? Hmm? Not out of Loyalty, there's no reason. Not telling him could be used as a bartering tool, should the AE secure Kamino, and not telling G0-T0 won't lead to issues as G0-T0 is not aware they're hiding something.

[Warren-Stride]

Even though we have the Order 66 debate on the back burner, someone please give a reasonable explanation for G0-T0 knowing or learning about Order 66. And no, not 'he's a droid lols' There needs to be a good reason for it.

 

Further, I don't think G0-T0 knows about the Clones.

 

I'm pretty sure Order 66 is pretty infamous in galactic history. Surely Guri, assistant to the third most powerful person in the galaxy following Order 66, knows what it is. Order 66 is the defining moment for the formation of the Galactic Empire, which PROXY was an immediate servant of. To say PROXY and Guri have not heard of Order 66 is illogical. Heck, PROXY aided Starkiller in hunting down Jedi that avoided Order 66.

 

I'm not sure why you don't think G0-T0 knows about the clones, but if he doesn't, his allies and the entire planet of Kamino does.

[Warren-Stride]

Wait, the Jedi Master that doesn't know about Order 66 tells his own clone army to execute the Jedi-killing order? Jeez, I didn't think Obi-Wan was suicidal.

 

It doesn't matter who gives the Order. Once it's given, it is followed without question.