Warren-Stride Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 You can be programmed with all the known tactics in the galaxy and then still find yourself out maneuvered by one some one just made up out of no where that as far as you can tell makes no sense, but because its a tactic they have never seen they have no idea what to do or how to react, that is the definition of by the book, something that droid commanders are ONLY capable of as their tactics are programmed into them rather then thought up on the spot. This doesn't make any sense. Droids do not work on a step by step basis. Look at droid pilots. Are you telling me that they are not constantly adapting to the battlefield and the movement of enemy ships? Are you saying they don't formulate new flight plans and evasive maneuvers in order to avoid destruction? Are you saying that they fly in straight lines? "By the book"? In order to be "by the book" you have to allow for adaptation of your tactics. "By the book" commanders still change their plans and strategies to best suit the situation at hand. What you're saying is that droids are not able to adapt to new situations. That is wrong. Droids are able to exceed their programming when they are exposed to new scenarios. In fact, Nute Gunray said to OOM-9 that the droid had "preformed beyond his parameters." Was 4-LOM supposed to become a bounty hunter? Was G0-T0 supposed to become a crime lord? Was R2-D2 supposed to safely carry Death Star plans? No. But they did, because their programming is not static, and they constantly adapt to their environment and the circumstances preventing them from achieving their objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Let's look at OOM-9, the sole droid responsible for the successful invasion of Naboo. He had no biological being controlling him. No specific orders. He alone decided the best way to take over Theed, defeat the Naboo Army, drive back the Gungans. And he did all of that. He's also part of the Trade Federation Army. Whoe, whoa, whoa. You get OOM-9? How did that happen? I don't even get Cody dangnabit! Edited March 4, 2014 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Whoe, whoa, whoa. You get OOM-9? How did that happen? I don't even get Cody dangnabit! I mean, it doesn't matter. The DS can easily just program another droid with similar tactical abilities. I'm just using OOM-9 as an example of what Trade Federation Army droids can do tactics-wise. Edited March 4, 2014 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I mean, it doesn't matter. The DS can easily just program another droid with similar tactical abilities. I'm just using OOM-9 as an example of what Trade Federation Army droids can do tactics-wise. Well good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 This doesn't make any sense. Droids do not work on a step by step basis. Look at droid pilots. Are you telling me that they are not constantly adapting to the battlefield and the movement of enemy ships? Are you saying they don't formulate new flight plans and evasive maneuvers in order to avoid destruction? Are you saying that they fly in straight lines? "By the book"? In order to be "by the book" you have to allow for adaptation of your tactics. "By the book" commanders still change their plans and strategies to best suit the situation at hand. What you're saying is that droids are not able to adapt to new situations. That is wrong. Droids are able to exceed their programming when they are exposed to new scenarios. In fact, Nute Gunray said to OOM-9 that the droid had "preformed beyond his parameters." Was 4-LOM supposed to become a bounty hunter? Was G0-T0 supposed to become a crime lord? Was R2-D2 supposed to safely carry Death Star plans? No. But they did, because their programming is not static, and they constantly adapt to their environment and the circumstances preventing them from achieving their objectives. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTmIwOLfUlM 31:20-33:20 He trounces hordes of droid pilots and then finds that the one he is fighting afterwards is definately not a droid. Clearly droids have limitations in this department. We get machines all the time that preform slightly better then is expected, that does not mean they have gone beyond the basis of their programming. It was still using conventional tactics it just so happened that it was choosing those tactics much better then they expected it to. While they can respond to any conventional tactic with another conventional tactic of their own fairly easily, its when the enemy uses an unknown unconventional tactic for which the droid doesnt have a programmed response to, thats when it trips up and delays or makes a bad judgement call, droids can not comprehend the unorthodox they are just not programmed that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 About the fighter debate, clones are the better pilots, for sure. Not to mention the 181st Fighter Wing the AE can deploy to ROFLstomp everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Aww Warren, it looks like your all by yourself in this one so far. Don't worry, I'm leaning your direction. #DroidTakeover:jawa_evil: Edited March 4, 2014 by ShadowMudkip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I think it's pretty obvious that the AE has a major tactical advantage. Here's the rundown: Garm Bel Iblis: This man fought a shadow war against the Galactic Empire, successfully. He was also one of the few men in the New Republic that could actually do something against Grand Admiral Thrawn, the greatest military mind in galactic history. Plo Koon: An expert in reading a situation and adapting to any situation he found himself in. Throughout the Clone Wars, he has consistently overcome incredible odds to win vital battles. Plo Koon masterminded some of the Jedi Order's most vital campaigns, including battles on Khorm, Brentaal, and many others. Obi-Wan Kenobi: Clearly the biggest gun the AE has. Obi-Wan Kenobi revolutionized Republic battlefield tactics against the droid armies of the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Many of his tactics were based around misdirection and distraction. He masterminded and won most of the Republic's most important battles during the Clone Wars. Plo Koon and Obi-Wan are experts in fighting battle droid armies. They constantly find themselves heavily outnumbered and still find ways to win. The Trade Federation army is something they both know how to fight. Concerning assassination of any of the AE's leadership, I find this unlikely. Mon Mothma will be guarded by the best of the Imperial Knights. It's what they do. They won't just let some Tom, Dick, or Harry meet with Mon Mothma. The only way for the DS to actually get to Mon Mothma is by using PROXY to impersonate an Imperial Knight, but I doubt that he has the form of someone from an organization created decades after his destruction. It is also unlikely that they would be able to assassinate Garm, Kenobi, or Koon, especially since they will be leading the charge. It is made clear in the Revenge of the Sith novel that Obi-Wan's Force senses are supreme, which means that stealth and droids are unlikely to get at them without him knowing. First actual argument! YAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Aww Warren, it looks like your all by yourself in this one so far. Don't worry, I'm leaning your direction. #DroidTakeover:jawa_evil: Droids shall reign supreme, however, I have not yet compiled enough data concerning this match in order to contribute a decent amount of useful input or ideas. I shall join into this debate when I have done so that I may help the Droid Revolution to finally become complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 That's four now. #WWPD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 That's four now. #WWPD? wait what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 wait what? What would Plo do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 What would Plo do whats four though? the number of people that think droids rule and biologicals drool? Well you know I have a soft spot for biologicals hell my whole faction was bio's save for 1 droid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 whats four though? the number of people that think droids rule and biologicals drool? Well you know I have a soft spot for biologicals hell my whole faction was bio's save for 1 droid. Four DS supporters. Warren, Canino, Shadow, and Silenceo. That's four arguments I'll have to deal with, which will grow exponentially as the debate carries on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Four DS supporters. Warren, Canino, Shadow, and Silenceo. That's four arguments I'll have to deal with, which will grow exponentially as the debate carries on. its not like we all havent faced long odds before against multiple people supporting a side, dont worry I am sure a certain degree of neutrality will remain for the most part among most others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 its not like we all havent faced long odds before against multiple people supporting a side, dont worry I am sure a certain degree of neutrality will remain for the most part among most others. Hopefully. Still, I don't have a lot of time over the next few weeks, so I'm not going to be able to debate as much as I would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hopefully. Still, I don't have a lot of time over the next few weeks, so I'm not going to be able to debate as much as I would like. Sel and Tune seem pretty solidly behind you. Not to mention I'll argue for your army/navy all day long. I might have to side with Warren on the endgame though... we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Four DS supporters. Warren, Canino, Shadow, and Silenceo. That's four arguments I'll have to deal with, which will grow exponentially as the debate carries on. While I personally am leaning towards the DS, I'm not going to commit anytime soon. I would much rather wait till arguments got further along. Anyways, Aubere you have a pretty strong faction, its going to be difficult for Warren to overcome your strongholds and navy. Lastly, I don't think that the Techno Union will defect to the DS, but more on that tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 In regards to space, I don't think we should so readily assume that the AE 'dominates' in this category. And this is because they are up against a considerable numerical advantage, purely in terms of numbers the AE are outnumbered roughly 4 to 1. If we take into account the fact that the majority of the AE fleet is comprised of Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers (of which roughly 4 = Star Destroyer) we are talking outnumbered roughly 8 to 1. Now OOM command battle droids may be a bit shoddy when it comes to tactical ability, but I expect that G0-T0 could easily coordinate them en masse via a central droid computer. And many times during the war the CIS defeated the Republic, despite tactical inferiority, simply thoroughly overwhelming numerical odds. The same applies for ground. Just something to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 In regards to space, I don't think we should so readily assume that the AE 'dominates' in this category. And this is because they are up against a considerable numerical advantage, purely in terms of numbers the AE are outnumbered roughly 4 to 1. If we take into account the fact that the majority of the AE fleet is comprised of Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers (of which roughly 4 = Star Destroyer) we are talking outnumbered roughly 8 to 1. Now OOM command battle droids may be a bit shoddy when it comes to tactical ability, but I expect that G0-T0 could easily coordinate them en masse via a central droid computer. And many times during the war the CIS defeated the Republic, despite tactical inferiority, simply thoroughly overwhelming numerical odds. The same applies for ground. Just something to consider. I would whole heartily agree with this. The numerical advantage of the DS was taken into consideration when I was thinking about Navies. I was giving the AE the overall advantage here because its overall slightly greater fire power, but even that is not the end all, mostly I believe its the tactitians that do this. Garm, Mothma to a degree, Obi-wan, and Plo Koon are ALL better tactitians then any one the DS has and the clone commanders I would say are ussually better then Droid commanders. In the end its the tactical capabilties of the 2 groups that I believe gives the AE the edge in space combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 I would whole heartily agree with this. The numerical advantage of the DS was taken into consideration when I was thinking about Navies. I was giving the AE the overall advantage here because its overall slightly greater fire power, but even that is not the end all, mostly I believe its the tactitians that do this. Garm, Mothma to a degree, Obi-wan, and Plo Koon are ALL better tactitians then any one the DS has and the clone commanders I would say are ussually better then Droid commanders. In the end its the tactical capabilties of the 2 groups that I believe gives the AE the edge in space combat.The AE have greater firepower? I don't know about that. To argue that you'd have to claim that an ISD is are more than equal to 8 of the DS's number. They are powerful, but they don't possess that kind of firepower I think. Especially if G0-T0 chooses to upgrade them, so as with missiles, faster engines and improved shielding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) The AE have greater firepower? I don't know about that. To argue that you'd have to claim that an ISD is are more than equal to 8 of the DS's number. They are powerful, but they don't possess that kind of firepower I think. Especially if G0-T0 chooses to upgrade them, so as with missiles, faster engines and improved shielding. remind me what are teh numbers again, the AE has 45 right? and the DS has 200. Edit: honestly I do believe the IMP II has more firepower then 8 Interceptors, but the interceptors overall shields and hulls along with maneuverablitlty would potentially be able to outfight one 4:1, but that I think would require the greater tactics honestly I think it still comes down to what I said before, Tactitians make the difference here more then the ships, and teh AE has it the advantage there, for that reason alone I have to give the space edge to the AE. Edited March 4, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 remind me what are teh numbers again, the AE has 45 right? and the DS has 200. Edit: honestly I do believe the IMP II has more firepower then 8 Interceptors, but the interceptors overall shields and hulls along with maneuverablitlty would potentially be able to outfight one 4:1, but that I think would require the greater tactics honestly I think it still comes down to what I said before, Tactitians make the difference here more then the ships, and teh AE has it the advantage there, for that reason alone I have to give the space edge to the AE.The AE has fifty, the DS 200. And you may be right. At least in Empire at War the Interceptors are fairly flimsy. And I'd hazard a guess that one Imp II would be enough to destroy them - but that's hazy memory and game mechanics talking here. There are other factors to consider here, primarily sabotage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 And you may be right. At least in Empire at War the Interceptors are fairly flimsy. And I'd hazard a guess that one Imp II would be enough to destroy them - but that's hazy memory and game mechanics talking here. If we're considering in-game mechanics, someone should have chosen the Millennium Falcon as their navy, because it could just go invincible and kill everything. But seriously, I'm not sure in-game mechanics are what we should look at for comparing these. On the other hand, the Interdictor-class Frigate is said to have comparable shields to a Nebulon-B Frigate and similar maneuverability. So, due to the Universal Tech Rule, we can assume that this ship is at least "Average" strength for its time. Granted that the AE ships are "Advanced" for their time, but I doubt that one advanced ship could take on four average ships. And the number comparison will likely be less than 4 to 1. If the AE leaves five ships at each world to defend, that narrows down their attacking force to 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) If we're considering in-game mechanics, someone should have chosen the Millennium Falcon as their navy, because it could just go invincible and kill everything. But seriously, I'm not sure in-game mechanics are what we should look at for comparing these. On the other hand, the Interdictor-class Frigate is said to have comparable shields to a Nebulon-B Frigate and similar maneuverability. So, due to the Universal Tech Rule, we can assume that this ship is at least "Average" strength for its time. Granted that the AE ships are "Advanced" for their time, but I doubt that one advanced ship could take on four average ships. And the number comparison will likely be less than 4 to 1. If the AE leaves five ships at each world to defend, that narrows down their attacking force to 25.The Universal Tech Rule doesn't apply here, all the vessels in question are from the exact same time period. It is what it is, nothing more. Nonetheless in terms of pure firepower I think Tunewalker is correct that the AE has an advantage. "Average" and "Advanced" being very vague non-relevant terms associated with the tech rule altogether. A direct comparison is required. Edited March 4, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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