Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Beniboybling]

In fact, one could assume ALL Kaminoans know how to clone, considering that is how they survived as a species. Although there hierarchy didn't place all Kaminoans in cloning (IIRC), it would only make since that they knew how to clone. Nearly eradicated, they swore they would never again let chance happen in their society. They are always working with genes to make sure nothing ever harms them again.

 

EDIT: I'm sorry Beni

They do, but that doesn't necessarily mean they know about super secret operation 66.

 

BUT FREEZE!

[Aurbere]

I was under the impression that suppliers needed a good reason to defect. Wat Tambor is a businessman. He defected to Dooku's cause because Dooku offered droid builders the chance to produce their droids without Republic restrictions, essentially freedom. Here is a faction that doesn't care if they build droids for them. There is no issue. The Jedi and Mothma are not going to persecute the Techno Union for building droids for them. Past grievances aside, Tambor is in a good position, especially when the AE is in control of major economic powerhouses.

[tunewalker]

Beni, I know you will hate me for not putting it on the back burner, but I need to have the last word. Sel/Tune (whoever said this, since you both made relatively similar points) G0-T0 personally won't know of the contingency plans, at first. But he has Kamino, so don't you think he would ask the makers of the clones if they had weaknesses? Or contingency plans? He is a droid. He thinks of things organics do not.

 

 

OK, going to say this for difference of Droids vs Organics. Droids dont think of things organics dont, they think Faster. Organics are the more unpredictable and inventive ones we have seen that through out SW. So he wont think of things Organics dont but he may come up with plans faster then organics.

 

 

That is something else I just thought of. While we have seen 212th vs droids before, we have not seen 212th under the orders of Mothma and garm vs Droids under the order of more droids before. The droids always had a good commander at their lead so they were at least intelligently deployed. Here that may not be the case. And while the 212th have fought droids before, Mothma's and Garm's style of leading is much more sabotage like and hit and run. They wont fight in the same manner as before I dare say the Clones will be more effective as I feel Mothma and Garm are slightly superior having had to fight the empire tactically I mean, and the Droids dont have commanders nearly on the same caliber that they used to. Swinging it more so in the AE favor here.

 

 

This is even worse when we talk about Navies. While the ships are fast stealthy and great at hit and run tactics, you have maybe 3 droids that will think to use these tactics, and even then I am unsure about how effective they will be at leading this. The rest of the fleets commanders will all just have the line up and shoot mentality, costing much of the DS fleet with out much thought. Not to mention, but I believe one of the instances when Garm faced droids he tricked them into either firing on each other or allowing his ships into their ranks and blowing them to bits.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Selenial]

Secret talks at the royal court!

 

We all talk behind your back Bro, Tune knows my next factions leaders, and I'm tempted to send hum the whole thing ITS A CONSPIRACY..

*Ahem* Sorry gentleman, I of course meant

 

That, and I'm trying to procure my Position as Queen once this pesky droid lover is gone, and no faster way than through Aurbere

[tunewalker]

We all talk behind your back Bro, Tune knows my next factions leaders, and I'm tempted to send hum the whole thing ITS A CONSPIRACY..

*Ahem* Sorry gentleman, I of course meant

 

That, and I'm trying to procure my Position as Queen once this pesky droid lover is gone, and no faster way than through Aurbere

 

Feel , free if I see anything that I find might bite you in the butt I will say so you know me . Also I intend to be 100% neutral in the next debates so even if I know your faction dont think I will jump to ALWAYS help you .

[Aurbere]

We all talk behind your back Bro, Tune knows my next factions leaders, and I'm tempted to send hum the whole thing ITS A CONSPIRACY..

*Ahem* Sorry gentleman, I of course meant

 

That, and I'm trying to procure my Position as Queen once this pesky droid lover is gone, and no faster way than through Aurbere

 

I feel so used.

 

Do I get to be arm candy?

[Warren-Stride]

I was under the impression that suppliers needed a good reason to defect. Wat Tambor is a businessman. He defected to Dooku's cause because Dooku offered droid builders the chance to produce their droids without Republic restrictions, essentially freedom. Here is a faction that doesn't care if they build droids for them. There is no issue. The Jedi and Mothma are not going to persecute the Techno Union for building droids for them. Past grievances aside, Tambor is in a good position, especially when the AE is in control of major economic powerhouses.

 

I mean, intimidation always works too. Wat Tambor's last words before Anakin killed him were

"Please, I'll give you anything. Anything you want!"

 

Not the bravest or most stubborn soul.

 

Guri could easily "persuade" him to "reconsider" his alliance with the AE.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

Feel , free if I see anything that I find might bite you in the butt I will say so you know me . Also I intend to be 100% neutral in the next debates so even if I know your faction dont think I will jump to ALWAYS help you .

 

Hehe, don't worry, I'm just excited and want it off my chest. Been pretty ingenious with this one, if I do say so myself....

[Selenial]

I feel so used.

 

Do I get to be arm candy?

 

http://www.jimbo.info/weblog/archives/Palpatine.jpg

 

....... maybe.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Selenial

[Aurbere]

I mean, intimidation always works too. Wat Tambor's last words before Anakin killed him were

"Please, I'll give you anything. Anything you want!"

 

Not the bravest or most stubborn soul.

 

Guri could easily "persuade" him to "reconsider" his alliance with the AE.

 

Pretty sure a Sith Lord is more intimidating than a... droid. Further, she needs to get past Tambor's guards and then corner him. Pretty sure those guards would be Imperial Knights, seems logical to me.

[Canino]

OK, going to say this for difference of Droids vs Organics. Droids dont think of things organics dont, they think Faster. Organics are the more unpredictable and inventive ones we have seen that through out SW. So he wont think of things Organics dont but he may come up with plans faster then organics.

 

However, G0-T0 is a droid that is "broken". He is unlike any other droid. And, this is not always the case. Droids are often more logical, but often logic isn't always the most obvious option. Droids can be creative and unpredictable as well- especially a droid that has gone rogue.

 

I do agree on your thoughts tactics wise. The DS does not have any real commanders. However, they don't really need to. Order 66 (this includes hacking the Techno Union) would completely destroy the AE's armies. And, G0-T0 will never play the military game. If anything, Kamino and Geonosis or Dac would be attacked. And one battalion and 27 Force users (actually far less, considering many will be on other planets or guarding Mothma) aren't much. Sure the Techno Union, but HK.

 

Dac could be a problem, but as Warren has said, suicide tactics will wreck. And I might pull some quotes from the battle of Nar Shaddaa to show how easily bridges are destroyed by criminals.

 

EDIT:

We all talk behind your back Bro, Tune knows my next factions leaders, and I'm tempted to send hum the whole thing ITS A CONSPIRACY..

*Ahem* Sorry gentleman, I of course meant

 

That, and I'm trying to procure my Position as Queen once this pesky droid lover is gone, and no faster way than through Aurbere

 

Which droid lover?

 

Oh, and I might have to collaborate with you at some point- if given a 2v2 or factions might mesh well, if we have both gone lightside...

Edited March 3, 2014 by Canino

[Selenial]

Im sort of a mix between Light and grey Canino....

 

Heading off to bed, will begin replying again in like 8 hours

[Warren-Stride]

This is even worse when we talk about Navies. While the ships are fast stealthy and great at hit and run tactics, you have maybe 3 droids that will think to use these tactics, and even then I am unsure about how effective they will be at leading this. The rest of the fleets commanders will all just have the line up and shoot mentality, costing much of the DS fleet with out much thought.

 

I feel like this whole "the DS has no tacticians" thing has been blown WAY out of proportion.

 

Does the DS have a General? No. But you don't need a general to win a battle.

 

Let's look at OOM-9, the sole droid responsible for the successful invasion of Naboo. He had no biological being controlling him. No specific orders. He alone decided the best way to take over Theed, defeat the Naboo Army, drive back the Gungans. And he did all of that. He's also part of the Trade Federation Army.

 

One droid commander was able to occupy a planet. Droid commanders like this one start out as regular battle droids. However, their programming is then modified to make them especially adept at battle-field tactics, planning, and problem solving. The same can be done for space battles, where droid pilots have proven to be equal to if not superior than clone pilots.

 

The amazing thing about droids is their programming. A droid does not need to be an experienced, trained, successful commander to win battles. All a droid needs is some spunky new programming that allows it to think tactically like it needs to.

 

Also, in KotOR II, there's an item called the Droid Warfare Upgrade. And G0-T0 can equip it.

The warfare upgrade was a highly complex module that was designed as an alternative to droid training. This module allowed droids to learn at an extremely fast rate so that master generals, tacticians, and assassins were created after only a short install time.

 

With the Exchange supplying tech like this, I don't think the Droid Supremacy will have a shortage of tacticians.

[tunewalker]

However, G0-T0 is a droid that is "broken". He is unlike any other droid. And, this is not always the case. Droids are often more logical, but often logic isn't always the most obvious option. Droids can be creative and unpredictable as well- especially a droid that has gone rogue.

 

I do agree on your thoughts tactics wise. The DS does not have any real commanders. However, they don't really need to. Order 66 (this includes hacking the Techno Union) would completely destroy the AE's armies. And, G0-T0 will never play the military game. If anything, Kamino and Geonosis or Dac would be attacked. And one battalion and 27 Force users (actually far less, considering many will be on other planets or guarding Mothma) aren't much. Sure the Techno Union, but HK.

 

Dac could be a problem, but as Warren has said, suicide tactics will wreck. And I might pull some quotes from the battle of Nar Shaddaa to show how easily bridges are destroyed by criminals.

 

I will agree with 1 thing the Logical answer isnt always the obvious one, that however does not mean an organic cant think of it. And while a droid CAN be creative (such as the 4 here the other droids part of the DS cant) they are usually only creative around the boundries of their programming. This does make GO the most unpredictable of the group as his programming is the betterment of the Republic, but the rest will only truly be inventive around their programming and even then not really. Guri, Proxy and HK-01 are most likely to use tactics they know have worked and are very by the book. Guri is very by the book assassin, Proxy as well. Now the book is good and it works thats why it is "the book" but thats not really outside thinking, or upredictable.

 

Yes suicide tactics will work, but which of these people have ever thought of or used suicide tactics before? I am looking for precedence on this one personally, while it may seem obvious to us so we would think it would be obvious to GO-TO or Proxy or something, these guys are not programmed as war generals and have never shown an affinity for tactics such as these. I am not sure they will use them.

[StarSquirrel]

OK, going to say this for difference of Droids vs Organics. Droids dont think of things organics dont, they think Faster. Organics are the more unpredictable and inventive ones we have seen that through out SW. So he wont think of things Organics dont but he may come up with plans faster then organics.

 

 

That is something else I just thought of. While we have seen 212th vs droids before, we have not seen 212th under the orders of Mothma and garm vs Droids under the order of more droids before. The droids always had a good commander at their lead so they were at least intelligently deployed. Here that may not be the case. And while the 212th have fought droids before, Mothma's and Garm's style of leading is much more sabotage like and hit and run. They wont fight in the same manner as before I dare say the Clones will be more effective as I feel Mothma and Garm are slightly superior having had to fight the empire tactically I mean, and the Droids dont have commanders nearly on the same caliber that they used to. Swinging it more so in the AE favor here.

 

 

This is even worse when we talk about Navies. While the ships are fast stealthy and great at hit and run tactics, you have maybe 3 droids that will think to use these tactics, and even then I am unsure about how effective they will be at leading this. The rest of the fleets commanders will all just have the line up and shoot mentality, costing much of the DS fleet with out much thought. Not to mention, but I believe one of the instances when Garm faced droids he tricked them into either firing on each other or allowing his ships into their ranks and blowing them to bits.

 

Just some thoughts.

I agree with Tune here

 

Since this is my first post I'll throw in several points I see.

• "Freeze" -gosh darn it, got here too late for the order 66 debate.
  
• Wat Tambor is smart, he knows the AE will always need both civilian and military goods. If we think about the DS's ultimate goals, they'll only ever need droids from the Techno Union and eventually Tambor himself will have to be removed. Makes more sense to stick with the bigger market (more people on AE worlds) and safer allies.
   
  
• The AE wins the strategy game hands down. Koon, Obi, and Garm are leaps and bounds better tacticians than PROXY, HK-01, and G0-T0. In space that means the more powerful AE ships will dominate especially fighting against hit-and-run tactics Garm spend decades using himself.
  
• On the ground, it is the same deal except there is also the tiny issue of the AE having a huge droid force (better droids I might add) of its own to complement its already superiorly equipped 212th.
  
• On the topic of production. AE blows the DS away in space production. Mon Cal has a nice shipyard and Bothawui isn't shabby, but Kuat and Corellia are two of the biggest shipyards in the galaxy and can build the biggest ships in the galaxy. There isn't much room for comparison.
  
• Ground production I'd still give the DS, but Balmorra, Kuat, Corellia, and Coruscant all have massive populations and industry that can help them keep up. The AE also has more advanced vehicles thanks to the 212th.
  
• Mon Mothma is a soft target... Guri, PROXY, and Terror Droids are great assassins... If they can get Tenel Ka and her Mandos on a fortress world, I'd be seriously worried for her. Also, I think Garm falls under the same arena as Nek did in that he doesn't matter enough and is too hard to kill on his ship for the DS to waste the resources going after him.

 

I'm leaning towards the AE as a heavy favorite to win any war, but the DS's penchant for eliminating leaders is nagging at me.

[Beniboybling]

Im sort of a mix between Light and grey Canino....

 

Heading off to bed, will begin replying again in like 8 hours

Lol, so am I.

 

Sweet dreams.

[tunewalker]

I feel like this whole "the DS has no tacticians" thing has been blown WAY out of proportion.

 

Does the DS have a General? No. But you don't need a general to win a battle.

 

Let's look at OOM-9, the sole droid responsible for the successful invasion of Naboo. He had no biological being controlling him. No specific orders. He alone decided the best way to take over Theed, defeat the Naboo Army, drive back the Gungans. And he did all of that. He's also part of the Trade Federation Army.

 

One droid commander was able to occupy a planet. Droid commanders like this one start out as regular battle droids. However, their programming is then modified to make them especially adept at battle-field tactics, planning, and problem solving. The same can be done for space battles, where droid pilots have proven to be equal to if not superior than clone pilots.

 

The amazing thing about droids is their programming. A droid does not need to be an experienced, trained, successful commander to win battles. All a droid needs is some spunky new programming that allows it to think tactically like it needs to.

 

Also, in KotOR II, there's an item called the Droid Warfare Upgrade. And G0-T0 can equip it.

 

With the Exchange supplying tech like this, I don't think the Droid Supremacy will have a shortage of tacticians.

 

but all of these tactics will be 100% by the book, Greivous and Dooku added a level of unpredictability to the group, and by the book is what Mothma and Garm will eat for breakfast, they are quite litterally the worst people to use by the book tactics against, which is all the droids are capable of.

[tunewalker]

I agree with Tune here

 

Since this is my first post I'll throw in several points I see.

• "Freeze" -gosh darn it, got here too late for the order 66 debate.
  
• Wat Tambor is smart, he knows the AE will always need both civilian and military goods. If we think about the DS's ultimate goals, they'll only ever need droids from the Techno Union and eventually Tambor himself will have to be removed. Makes more sense to stick with the bigger market (more people on AE worlds) and safer allies.
   
  
• The AE wins the strategy game hands down. Koon, Obi, and Garm are leaps and bounds better tacticians than PROXY, HK-01, and G0-T0. In space that means the more powerful AE ships will dominate especially fighting against hit-and-run tactics Garm spend decades using himself.
  
• On the ground, it is the same deal except there is also the tiny issue of the AE having a huge droid force (better droids I might add) of its own to complement its already superiorly equipped 212th.
  
• On the topic of production. AE blows the DS away in space production. Mon Cal has a nice shipyard and Bothawui isn't shabby, but Kuat and Corellia are two of the biggest shipyards in the galaxy and can build the biggest ships in the galaxy. There isn't much room for comparison.
  
• Ground production I'd still give the DS, but Balmorra, Kuat, Corellia, and Coruscant all have massive populations and industry that can help them keep up. The AE also has more advanced vehicles thanks to the 212th.
  
• Mon Mothma is a soft target... Guri, PROXY, and Terror Droids are great assassins... If they can get Tenel Ka and her Mandos on a fortress world, I'd be seriously worried for her. Also, I think Garm falls under the same arena as Nek did in that he doesn't matter enough and is too hard to kill on his ship for the DS to waste the resources going after him.

 

I'm leaning towards the AE as a heavy favorite to win any war, but the DS's penchant for eliminating leaders is nagging at me.

 

agreed. The assassinations seems the most likely for the DS to pull this out again. There just isnt enough knights and I think just one shot getting through to mothma or 1 gas grenade and she is pretty much screwed.

[Warren-Stride]

I will agree with 1 thing the Logical answer isnt always the obvious one, that however does not mean an organic cant think of it. And while a droid CAN be creative (such as the 4 here the other droids part of the DS cant) they are usually only creative around the boundries of their programming. This does make GO the most unpredictable of the group as his programming is the betterment of the Republic, but the rest will only truly be inventive around their programming and even then not really. Guri, Proxy and HK-01 are most likely to use tactics they know have worked and are very by the book. Guri is very by the book assassin, Proxy as well. Now the book is good and it works thats why it is "the book" but thats not really outside thinking, or upredictable.

 

Why are you saying that Guri and PROXY are "by the book"? Where do you get that impression?

 

Yes suicide tactics will work, but which of these people have ever thought of or used suicide tactics before? I am looking for precedence on this one personally, while it may seem obvious to us so we would think it would be obvious to GO-TO or Proxy or something, these guys are not programmed as war generals and have never shown an affinity for tactics such as these. I am not sure they will use them.

 

It's not hard to think of suicide tactics.... heck, G0-T0's yacht had a bunch of mine droids just waiting to commit suicide. I don't think G0-T0 will have an issue applying that to a naval battle. And then the warfare upgrade will obviously account for whatever other tactical thinking you believe he doesn't have.

[Canino]

Don't forget, G0-T0 is bound to talk and consult with criminals on all matters of the Kaggath. I see no reason why a criminal couldn't give G0-T0 the idea for a suicide run.

[tunewalker]

Why are you saying that Guri and PROXY are "by the book"? Where do you get that impression?

 

 

 

It's not hard to think of suicide tactics.... heck, G0-T0's yacht had a bunch of mine droids just waiting to commit suicide. I don't think G0-T0 will have an issue applying that to a naval battle. And then the warfare upgrade will obviously account for whatever other tactical thinking you believe he doesn't have.

 

Everything they did was by the book for assassins they didnt do anything to crazy or unpredictable, thats definition of by the book. Now by the book works thats why in most ops special operations members or assassins will 90% of the time do it by the book, but there are occassions when by the book just doesnt work and Guri and Proxy have never gone off the beaten path of assassination tactics.

 

 

Well there you go, you have shown precendence for that kind of tactic, that said though again its IMPOSSIBLE to program unpredictable war tactics. You can be programmed with all the known tactics in the galaxy and then still find yourself out maneuvered by one some one just made up out of no where that as far as you can tell makes no sense, but because its a tactic they have never seen they have no idea what to do or how to react, that is the deffinition of by the book, something that droid commanders are ONLY capable of as their tactics are programmed into them rather then thought up on the spot.

[StarSquirrel]

Why are you saying that Guri and PROXY are "by the book"? Where do you get that impression?

They're not tacticians. Neither has lead a successful military operation in their entire existences. None of the DS's droids were programed, designed, or intended to carry out this task. Even if they were, I've yet to see a droid that can consistently outthink an organic commander and win battles. There are droid commanders that have won before, but they are few, far between, and specifically designed for that one task. Even then they still didn't completely dominate during their time like Garm, Koon, and Kenobi did.

 

It's not hard to think of suicide tactics.... heck, G0-T0's yacht had a bunch of mine droids just waiting to commit suicide. I don't think G0-T0 will have an issue applying that to a naval battle. And then the warfare upgrade will obviously account for whatever other tactical thinking you believe he doesn't have.

Again, Garm has seen and/or used such unconventional tactics. Not to mention, good luck blasting apart SD's with mine droids, the sheer number it would take would drain DS resources very quickly and take away from production of more useful things.

Edited March 4, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Warren-Stride]

Not to mention, good luck blasting apart SD's with mine droids, the sheer number it would take would drain DS resources very quickly and take away from production of more useful things.

 

XD Lol, that wasn't what I meant. I just brought up the mine droids as an example of when G0-T0 has used droids committing suicide to kill his enemies. This would be applied on the battle field as suicide bombing the enemy ships.

 

Of course I wouldn't expect the DS to blow up AE ships with tiny probe droids.

[Aurbere]

XD Lol, that wasn't what I meant. I just brought up the mine droids as an example of when G0-T0 has used droids committing suicide to kill his enemies. This would be applied on the battle field as suicide bombing the enemy ships.

 

Of course I wouldn't expect the DS to blow up AE ships with tiny probe droids.

 

You gotta admit that that would be funny.

[StarSquirrel]

XD Lol, that wasn't what I meant. I just brought up the mine droids as an example of when G0-T0 has used droids committing suicide to kill his enemies. This would be applied on the battle field as suicide bombing the enemy ships.

 

Of course I wouldn't expect the DS to blow up AE ships with tiny probe droids.

 

Good, good... I was worried there for a sec And yeah I understand the idea, I just think Garm would be used to it by now that it's effectiveness would quickly be diminished to the point it wouldn't be cost effective.