How do you take down a good gunship pilot with a scout?

[Kuciwalker]

Good luck killing me...

[MCaliban]

I can kill a gunship in 1.125 seconds with no crits, and distortion field is a huge negative (-30%).

It's a shockingly fast game at times, and gunships are big, stationary targets.

[Docmal]

Looks like the best idea I have seen is to take barrel roll. I have used retro for great effect in dogfighting but have wanted to pick up barrel roll on the flash fire for some time.

 

And no I am not RogueOne, he is a good pilot though. I was chasing Xa'io on his gunship this morning and just couldn't bring him down in 3 matches.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Looks like the best idea I have seen is to take barrel roll. I have used retro for great effect in dogfighting but have wanted to pick up barrel roll on the flash fire for some time.

 

And no I am not RogueOne, he is a good pilot though. I was chasing Xa'io on his gunship this morning and just couldn't bring him down in 3 matches.

 

Oh... Xi'ao. He's definitely an ace on the Shadowlands, though I haven't played against him in ages (and then mostly when he was in a scout, if I'm remembering right). I was wondering if he had left, to be honest. At any rate, he'll give you a challenge, considering he's on the leaderboards here on the forums for most damage, etc. Sounds like he's doing what you should in a gunship if someone is after you--not letting you get too big of a drop on them and making you pay for it.

 

My rule of thumb with a gunship is to keep after them so they can't peg you for going after them, but don't get in over your head. If they're running to a group of friends, it's better to head for cover and try to disrupt them later. There's nothing more frustrating on a gunship than needing to displace constantly. An approach from the sides or top or bottom... I need to do that more myself... too much a 2 dimensional approach sometimes for me if I don't remind myself.

 

Oh, and I believe I've flown with you some in one of my alts... I mostly fly with Ithyrn and Malachais, though I have other. I sometimes wonder if I should alt less, since it's nice to be able to recognize people.

[SithAceI]

From my own experience I tend to in domination and TDM to keep shields up when dogfighting. If a gunship takes a shot at me, or gets my attention I will boost to him and here is the key, I use blaster overcharge and conncentrated fire at the same time 2 shots and a cluster double tap and they just melt.( works for bombers too )

 

For this to work you have to have full engines( cus shields are up ) and the double tap clusters. Also basically a sting/flashfire tactic. If your in a strike then ion blasters, concentrated fire double tap clusters is also very effective. Ya you can crit with ions too! LOL

Edited March 3, 2014 by SithAceI

[Armonddd]

An approach from the sides or top or bottom... I need to do that more myself... too much a 2 dimensional approach sometimes for me if I don't remind myself.

 

The enemy's gate is down.

 

Would suggest completely disabling the auto-roll feature and practicing aligning your pitch with the enemy (so you're always chasing people towards 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock). Specifically don't re-orient afterwards, and use your HUD to find satellites and opponents. This is what helped me realize just how much space is out there to take advantage of.

[Sidenti]

The best gunship pilots can outrun even Scouts. They do so with full power to engines.

 

Get to know your power cycling options. Make friends with F1-F4. Take 'em out on a date. Know them INTIMATELY.

 

Then you will shred gunships. -bp

[-Streven-]

The best gunship pilots can outrun even Scouts. They do so with full power to engines.

 

Get to know your power cycling options. Make friends with F1-F4. Take 'em out on a date. Know them INTIMATELY.

 

Then you will shred gunships. -bp

 

Good gunship pilots will also cause you to over pursue every so often by going into scope mid barrel roll. A move I think should be fixed by the way.

[Kuciwalker]

No, the game should not be "fixed" to remove genuinely interesting flying tricks.

[-Streven-]

No, the game should not be "fixed" to remove genuinely interesting flying tricks.

 

Well your little "trick" is a cheap move. Gunships as it stands have access to the best of everything. Long range weapons, short range weapons, high mobility, plenty of defense, ability to stop on a dime. The only thing they lack is turn radius. Sorry I think they need a little more balancing. They shouldn't have barrel roll imo but since they do they should be stuck in the roll like everyone else.

[wvwraith]

I fly gunship myself a lot and I find double cluster missile much more annoying than rocket pods. If you're hitting gunships with rocket pods till they're dead, then more than likely its sitting there hoping to shoot you down before you kill them, or they're wanting to die. I find it funny though when I'm being chased and people are launching rockets like they're going out of style at me. An occasional smile creeps across my face because I'm getting you to spend your ammo fast.

 

As far as gunship "nerfs" they've been nerfed enough imo. If you haven't noticed, engine recharge is a little slower now.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes, when did that go live?

[Kuciwalker]

Well your little "trick" is a cheap move. Gunships as it stands have access to the best of everything. Long range weapons, short range weapons, high mobility, plenty of defense, ability to stop on a dime. The only thing they lack is turn radius. Sorry I think they need a little more balancing. They shouldn't have barrel roll imo but since they do they should be stuck in the roll like everyone else.

 

Out of all of those, the only thing gunships might need removed is BLC. Scouts have vastly superior short range weapons (because rockets/clusters, and optionally quads), far better defense and mobility (compared to a gunship a scout has basically endless thruster, and a scout has 10% more passive evasion + is nimble). Scouts also have access to an offensive cooldown which gunships lack.

 

The only scouts that have difficulty keeping up with a gunship over distance are those that pick retro thrusters over barrel roll - and in return for that they get retro thrusters.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

As far as gunship "nerfs" they've been nerfed enough imo. If you haven't noticed, engine recharge is a little slower now.

 

Ion railgun at the very least needs the aoe debuff removed. I think it needs the aoe damage to help with bombers (at least with how the game works now), but the debuff is ridiculous for a ST attack, let alone an AOE. As it is, I still think it shouldn't kill energy regen if it's going to drain as much energy as it does.

 

Note that I do fly gunships and think the idea of a debuff is okay--it's just too strong at the moment.

[Yndras]

Fully upgraded emp burst will kill engine ability for ten seconds. I use that with sabo probe. To be honest its a gimmicky build but satisfying when I get kills from it. If emp burst had a better range and shorter cooldown it would be worthwhile but as is you give up too much in other componenets to run this.

 

I really don't see single gunships as a problem but when you have more than three and they cover each other the only tactic that seems to work is bring more gunships. A strategy that imo blows.

 

Agree full heartedly. One or two gunships is actually fine. I play a starguard almost exclusively, and I rarely have problems killing gunships in it, but more and more I see the stacking of gunships, which makes flying anything other than a gunship utterly pointless.

[Yndras]

Ion railgun at the very least needs the aoe debuff removed. I think it needs the aoe damage to help with bombers (at least with how the game works now), but the debuff is ridiculous for a ST attack, let alone an AOE. As it is, I still think it shouldn't kill energy regen if it's going to drain as much energy as it does.

 

Note that I do fly gunships and think the idea of a debuff is okay--it's just too strong at the moment.

 

slug and ion need a range reduction. 10000km would be ok.

Either this or staggered damage like burst. ie the damage increases as the distance reduces. 1600 damage for targets within 5000m 5-10k 1200 damage and max range 800 damage.

 

this keeps in line with the damage missiles currently do with out the long lock times or the notification beeps. Imo it would be fair.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

slug and ion need a range reduction. 10000km would be ok.

Either this or staggered damage like burst. ie the damage increases as the distance reduces. 1600 damage for targets within 5000m 5-10k 1200 damage and max range 800 damage.

 

this keeps in line with the damage missiles currently do with out the long lock times or the notification beeps. Imo it would be fair.

 

That's... completely destroying the whole point of the gunship. 10k meters is the range of a Proton Torpedo, which is otherwise equipped on ships that are close range fighters (proton just makes them a little more flexible). The whole point of a gunship is a class of ship that isn't as good in close fights, but excels at range.

 

Any changes have to take that into account and balance accordingly. The range on slug and the rest isn't the problem, it's their other effects. Ion's debuff is too big and is applied as an aoe. I have less of an issue with it, but Slug does better against shields than it really should: if you toned that down, you could keep ion's place as a valid weapon to use (if you took out some of its debuff).

 

Basically, by doing that, the devs would be removing the "headshot!" problem. People hate those, and many games have account for some way to still make a sniper take two shots at an opponent... that, or make them have a lot of weaknesses up close to make up for that ability (TF2 does that well). I don't think the gunship really does that yet.

 

And Armondd, I know what you mean by the gate is down. I don't auto-roll, though... I frequently fly "upside down." The problem is I still stay on the same plane as most gunships, partially because of the cover most maps afford... those are mostly on one plane, notwithstanding a few peaks and random asteroids. Sometimes using cover to approach is even better than going high or low, because they don't have an option to hit you at all, then. And many gunships will be aware. Still, I could do better in staying low in the canyons as I approach.

[wvwraith]

slug and ion need a range reduction. 10000km would be ok.

Either this or staggered damage like burst. ie the damage increases as the distance reduces. 1600 damage for targets within 5000m 5-10k 1200 damage and max range 800 damage.

 

this keeps in line with the damage missiles currently do with out the long lock times or the notification beeps. Imo it would be fair.

 

At that range gunships would be pretty much useless. It would just be a little better range than a ship having range lasers and range capacitor. Gunships are like artillery pieces on a battlefield. They need to have range and certainly are not dogfighters. Again, I think gunships are fine the way they are now. If you're having trouble dealing with them, then change up your strategy. Now I could flip it to a different ship and say why do scouts have heavy weaponry like quads and burst when they should be about speed and quick hits(light weapons). Before I get flamed about that statement I'm not complaining, just saying.

 

 

I wouldn't be upset if they took burst away from gunships. Maybe they could give us something else instead of them. Again, we're artillery pieces and we should be as such.

Edited March 4, 2014 by wvwraith

[Zharik]

I wouldn't be upset if they took burst away from gunships. Maybe they could give us something else instead of them. Again, we're artillery pieces and we should be as such.

 

That is hardly what makes them more powerful than they should be...

 

I've made several posts about Ions, not wasting more time on those.

 

Barrel roll is getting general attention, that will help some.

 

The biggest issues with gunships is the zoom being so broken... zoom out and the target's hitbox GROWS. Ridiculous!

 

A slight adjustment to slugs (making them do less vs shields) is probably all they need.

 

Distortion Field is too powerful of an antimissile lock item for gunships to get. (though with the barrel roll nerf coming I would not be against them getting snap turn or power dive as a missile break engine).

Edited March 4, 2014 by Zharik

[Zharik]

Good gunship pilots will also cause you to over pursue every so often by going into scope mid barrel roll. A move I think should be fixed by the way.

 

Yeah the instant brakes are not exactly fair either...

[Yndras]

That's... completely destroying the whole point of the gunship. 10k meters is the range of a Proton Torpedo, which is otherwise equipped on ships that are close range fighters (proton just makes them a little more flexible). The whole point of a gunship is a class of ship that isn't as good in close fights, but excels at range.

 

Any changes have to take that into account and balance accordingly. The range on slug and the rest isn't the problem, it's their other effects. Ion's debuff is too big and is applied as an aoe. I have less of an issue with it, but Slug does better against shields than it really should: if you toned that down, you could keep ion's place as a valid weapon to use (if you took out some of its debuff).

 

Basically, by doing that, the devs would be removing the "headshot!" problem. People hate those, and many games have account for some way to still make a sniper take two shots at an opponent... that, or make them have a lot of weaknesses up close to make up for that ability (TF2 does that well). I don't think the gunship really does that yet.

 

And Armondd, I know what you mean by the gate is down. I don't auto-roll, though... I frequently fly "upside down." The problem is I still stay on the same plane as most gunships, partially because of the cover most maps afford... those are mostly on one plane, notwithstanding a few peaks and random asteroids. Sometimes using cover to approach is even better than going high or low, because they don't have an option to hit you at all, then. And many gunships will be aware. Still, I could do better in staying low in the canyons as I approach.

 

Ok, two things... this is a space pvp game, not a first person shooter. There should be no concept of a sniper..... period.

Secondly, if they are supposed to be bad in close up fights, then they wouldn't have burst laser cannons. At the moment, the gunship has, unbeatable range of any other ship class. The destructive power of the heaviest scout weaponry for close quarters fighting, the speed to out run all but the scouts equipped for outrunning and an ion cannon better than anything else out there that REMOVES any speed or shield advantage another class might have. And thats just one variant. The other one has the heaviest long range lasers available and the heaviest missiles available, coupled with the hardest hitting long ranged cannon in the game.

 

And people argue this is balanced? Get your heads out of the clouds, railguns need to be nerfed... significantly, and i wouldnt stop there, id nerf the sentry railguns range too.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Yndras

[wvwraith]

That is hardly what makes them more powerful than they should be...

 

I've made several posts about Ions, not wasting more time on those.

 

Barrel roll is getting general attention, that will help some.

 

The biggest issues with gunships is the zoom being so broken... zoom out and the target's hitbox GROWS. Ridiculous!

 

A slight adjustment to slugs (making them do less vs shields) is probably all they need.

 

Distortion Field is too powerful of an antimissile lock item for gunships to get. (though with the barrel roll nerf coming I would not be against them getting snap turn or power dive as a missile break engine).

 

 

Never said anything about burst causing them to be more powerful. Just said basically wouldn't mind them being taken out.

 

 

I'd written out more about why some things on gunships shouldn't be changed, but at this point it would be beating a dead horse. I'm hoping bioware doesn't do a knee jerk reaction to all the screamers about gunships on here and ruin a fun and interesting ship to play.

[Lytewraith]

Here is the easy way to kill a gun ship now use a nova/blackbolt with emp burst ranked up to stop there barrel roll.

then wile your that close hit him with sab probe and pop your consentraited fire with light lasers .

Final result if you target well and get your emp off he cant barrel roll and with sabe probe reduction of eng speed and the debuff to system abites and engine abiltys from emp and sab that equals 1 dead gun ship no matter who they are if you do it right.

[DamascusAdontise]

Thought id chime in on this:

 

T2 Scout vs Gunship - (Engine Power) Try to approach with cover up to about 17k, Barrel Roll toward the target but not directly, pick a spot a short distance away from the gunship (1-2 inches from dead center). Depending on the situation you may have to use one of the below as the next step.

 

Method 1 - Best used if gunship isn't watching you - (Weapon Power) Pop Blaster Overcharge and Bypass (or concentrated fire) and lay into the target for as long as possible, until dead or they run / focus you.

 

Method 2 - Best used if gunship is focusing you - (Weapon Power) Fire and attempt to lock a missile as you fly towards them. Fly directly past them, Hit X turn hard into target and feather the boost to turn quickly (holding s the whole time as well) Pop Blaster Overcharge and Bypass and lay into target until dead or they run. With this one you might have to chase so switch to Engine Power if they try to run.

 

Additional Notes:

 

Your harder to hit up close (like inside of 1-2k) - use this to your advantage, be prepared to take evasive action if they start using burst lasers (aka if they stop sniping and switch to primary weapon)

 

When a gunship looks like its going to run always switch to engine power and use a barrel roll to catch up rather than your boosters, this will put you behind them again and with more boost than they have. At this point its a losing battle for them as they will run out of engine power before you do. Try not to follow them into bad places like minefields or domination cap ships.

 

Whenever you take damage from a gunship hit R immediately and target them. Use some solid boost to get out of their immediate cross-hairs and turn into them, repeat the above methods for engaging.

 

If you get hit with an ion rail switch to engine power immediately and pray that you get enough power to roll away before they can line up their next shot. Either fight the target shooting you or Find cover and regroup, try to bait them into an unfavorable situation. Ion Rail is your #1 worst enemy as a scout, everyone loves nothing more than to pick off a wounded sting =)

Edited March 4, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

[Armonddd]

That's... completely destroying the whole point of the gunship. 10k meters is the range of a Proton Torpedo, which is otherwise equipped on ships that are close range fighters (proton just makes them a little more flexible). The whole point of a gunship is a class of ship that isn't as good in close fights, but excels at range.

 

Any changes have to take that into account and balance accordingly. The range on slug and the rest isn't the problem, it's their other effects.

 

No, no, no, not true at all.

 

10 km is long range when compared to any ship's rate of travel. If you want to traverse that much distance quickly, you have to burn resources -- engine power or a cooldown in the form of barrel roll. If you don't have either of those resources available for some reason, you flat out cannot travel that distance quickly.

 

15 km? That is extreme range. Capital ships don't even have that much range, and their guns are gigantic. The very existence of a weapon with 15 km range completely alters the battlefield, and, accordingly, the strategies and balance of the game. It wouldn't matter if railguns did a fifth their current damage -- the ability to pelt from that much range is, in and of itself, a significant factor.

 

Even if you disagree with that (though I have no idea why you would), you can't deny that extra range is an advantage. If it weren't, gunships would always pelt things with burst cannons! And when something has an advantage, if balance is to be maintained, it should have a disadvantage. Railguns... don't. They do more damage than any other combination of components, they have your choice of lethal amounts of shield piercing or lethal amounts of CC, they don't require leading the target, and they don't give any of the warning signs common among weapons with large burst damage.

 

Range and damage combine badly. By default, the shorter the range of an attack, the harder it is to use effectively. Getting into close range (melee in ground combat, < 1-2 km in GSF) involves exposing yourself to a significant amount of risk -- at the very least, you're exposing yourself to other short range attacks, and if there's any mid- to long-range attacks on the enemy team, well, you're vulnerable to them too. Approaching an enemy makes you predictable, which gives the enemy a chance to avoid the damage. Anything that affects the attacker's mobility makes it harder to get off a short-range attack. In some (many?) games, melee-range counters are much more prevalent than spell-range counters. When defending an area, short-range attacks severely limit your targeting options -- if someone's out of your range, you can't attack him without giving up the point, which is an enormous risk.

 

In short, melee is hard. It takes significantly more skill to be effective at short range than it does at long range. In the interests of even performance in raids and PvP, Blizzard introduced mechanics such as gap closers, knockback, ranged stuns, and death grip, bringing the performance of melee dps characters up to their (poorly designed) ranged counterparts and destroying the value of the resource of positioning. Their reasoning was obvious -- the very existence of Fire and Arcane mage specializations proved that they were more concerned with appealing to the least common denominator than rewarding skilled play. When BioWare copied mechanics from WoW to SWTOR, these were brought along for the ride, presumably for similar reasons.

 

Now, in GSF, we see the longest range class causing problems on the damage front for the same reasons that fast casting elementalist-mesmers were causing problems early in Guild Wars' career -- large rewards for less skill investment than the alternatives. Outside of that particular build, mesmers were mostly fine as a ranged control/shutdown class, carefully treading a line between "effective at making enemies weaker" and "extremely unfun to play against". Once players realized how to ramp up their damage, mesmers got access to the best interrupt, debuff, and tactical maneuver in the game: ranged death. The difference is that while ArenaNet realized the issue and corrected it fairly quickly, BioWare has designed an entire class around this concept.

 

I'm ok with the idea of ranged debuffs, and I think the ion debuff could be balanced if it were adjusted properly. I've long advocated the idea of ranged support in the form of gunships shooting allies to heal them. Ranged damage -- especially when so much of it ignores the shields we commonly consider our safety bubble -- just does not work.

 

I agree that because railguns cannot be used concurrently with primary weapons, they should be as strong as the combined power of the primary and secondary weapons other ships can use concurrently. I agree with the concept of a long-ranged class. Unfortunately, the current implementation of gunships has too many positives and not enough negatives, to the point where I don't believe the class would be balanced if railguns had a 10 km max range.

 

Range, damage, and balance: pick two.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Armonddd