Make Storm as a baseline skill! Please devs

[JMagee]

What we need is a harpoon cd reduction where it is needed aka the assault tree. We really need some extra utility and that would do a bit. Or you know what would be even better, make harpoon be usable on allies, that would make my day.

 

This and a dps boost for tactical. Oh and how about you ditch the fake boring proc system like "40% 80% high impact bolt proc on ion pulse and stockstrike with 6cd internal cd(or smth like this)" by something a lot more fun and less predictable like "dots have x% chance to reset high impact bolt cd when it ticks without any internal CD.

 

I've read this post 6 times now, and I've thought about replying or not.

 

NO. NO to all of it.

 

Why does Assault need a reduced CD on Harpoon? Assault is so good in PvP right now and in PvE I'm not thinking to myself "Boy, SUSTAINED DPS would be higher if I could shoot my harpoon into these Ops bosses more frequently and not do any damage to them."

 

And I have no idea what "tactical" means. At first I thought you meant tactics, but then come up with such a ridiculously OP way to change the IA proc for Assault that I have no idea what you are even trying to convey. The idea of making us even Burstier with even less control over our sustained DPS is creating a bigger problem, especially for PvP, than the way the system is now.

 

Honestly the most likely fix is adjusting IA to be a guaranteed proc, which would probably be traded off with lower HiB damage, just to keep PvP burst where it is.

 

DPS VG is in an incredibly delicate position right now, that needs to be refined, not hacked to pieces.

Edited March 3, 2014 by JMagee

[Gyronamics]

Honestly the most likely fix is adjusting IA to be a guaranteed proc, which would probably be traded off with lower HiB damage, just to keep PvP burst where it is.

 

What makes you think commandos have something different about their proc system?

[JMagee]

What makes you think commandos have something different about their proc system?

 

Well, reading this and your other random, circumstantial post regarding HiB proccing.

 

If your point here is that guaranteeing a proc on HiB every 6s would break Assault Commando even more, than that's a good point and the shared tree is not something I thought while suggesting the most likely fix would be to simply make it a 100% proc chance.

 

But if it's some other point, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[julienfs]

I've read this post 6 times now, and I've thought about replying or not.

 

NO. NO to all of it.

 

Why does Assault need a reduced CD on Harpoon? Assault is so good in PvP right now and in PvE I'm not thinking to myself "Boy, SUSTAINED DPS would be higher if I could shoot my harpoon into these Ops bosses more frequently and not do any damage to them."

 

And I have no idea what "tactical" means. At first I thought you meant tactics, but then come up with such a ridiculously OP way to change the IA proc for Assault that I have no idea what you are even trying to convey. The idea of making us even Burstier with even less control over our sustained DPS is creating a bigger problem, especially for PvP, than the way the system is now.

 

Honestly the most likely fix is adjusting IA to be a guaranteed proc, which would probably be traded off with lower HiB damage, just to keep PvP burst where it is.

 

DPS VG is in an incredibly delicate position right now, that needs to be refined, not hacked to pieces.

 

Well i understand the concern regarding burst, tho there are some other mmo competitors who use the proc system I described on most classes with great success. I just find the way procs work in SWTOR is a little bit too predictable, which can become a bit tedious overtime.

 

Regarding harpoon I don't understand your arguments. I've always hated huttball as Assault because I feel there s that bit of utility missing with the spec. Making it at least usable on allies would be nice imo.

Edited March 4, 2014 by julienfs

[JMagee]

Well i understand the concern regarding burst, tho there are some other mmo competitors who use the proc system I described on most classes with great success. I just find the way procs work in SWTOR is a little bit too predictable, which can become a bit tedious overtime.

 

Regarding harpoon I don't understand your arguments. I've always hated huttball as Assault because I feel there s that bit of utility missing with the spec. Making it at least usable on allies would be nice imo.

 

Regarding Assault:

 

Right now Assault is very good in PvP. Buffing it even further, with a reduced CD on Harpoon would probably cause a large nerf down the line. I agree, Huttball defense is not the best job for VGs. I would really love to have a reduced CD pull, or a KB (Not going to happen), but, in my opinion would sort of make the spec OP.

 

Assault is currently suffering from low sustained DPS output in PvE. There's a strong agreement from a lot of the VG players on the forums that what the spec needs is help in the sustained department, without altering the burst capabilities. I was, somewhat sarcastically, suggesting that Harpoon CD reduction doesn't help address the most pressing issue for Assault at the moment.

[julienfs]

Regarding Assault:

 

Right now Assault is very good in PvP. Buffing it even further, with a reduced CD on Harpoon would probably cause a large nerf down the line. I agree, Huttball defense is not the best job for VGs. I would really love to have a reduced CD pull, or a KB (Not going to happen), but, in my opinion would sort of make the spec OP.

 

Assault is currently suffering from low sustained DPS output in PvE. There's a strong agreement from a lot of the VG players on the forums that what the spec needs is help in the sustained department, without altering the burst capabilities. I was, somewhat sarcastically, suggesting that Harpoon CD reduction doesn't help address the most pressing issue for Assault at the moment.

 

I get your point. But regarding the assault dps in PVE, I have the feeling that devs went with the idea that assault = PVP dps, tactics PVE dps. So I think it would be best for us to push devs toward an utility buff for assault and dps buff for tactics.

 

And yeah i totally agree when you say assault is ok in PVP, but the class is very straightforward, and a little tool to think out of the box at times would really make the gaming sessions more interesting.

[GOLANX]

Can't they just switch them? Place harpoon in tanking tree and make storm a baseline? I can't see how it will change things in PVP - both are gap closers there, and tanks have both anyway. And in PVE we will finally have something to follow bosses.

 

this idea is better than most, but imo as a tank i likely wouldn't spec harpoon, compared to storm, it is very underwhelming, and i could really say the same for my Sin tank, and force pull. i dont see any utility for Harpoon at all in PVP unless you have the root that requires 2 points to get how many vanguards find that worth their while? if they are ranged they can continue to ignore me, if they are warrior/knight they can leap away, if they are Inquisitor/consular they can force speed away, some of them even able to break the root while doing so. in essence its a wasted GCD. quite frankly i think if they did flip them, they would need to add something to harpoon, otherwise i would safely ignore it (or maybe make it the top tier talent and energy blast/power screens mid tier so i can safely get gut)

 

Htl isnt a good gap closer, i will take force speed any day over Htl for gap closing, force speed does last for about 30m and has a short CD, that is a major gap closer as long as you arnt rooted in the middle of it (in PVE not a problem, in PVP only a problem when you are using it to run)

[AmagonofBloodfin]

No.

 

Ability to stay within melee once there counts. (Perma slow auto attacks, or knife, hold the line)

 

Etc... You are simply not considering the ramifications of what you've proposing. What would be the counter to a leaping vanguard who can pull you when you make your escape? No effort, yet your target will die. No, just no.

 

welcome to assassins and they get stealth. and to be honest your statement is dumb because you can go tank spec and already get this... obviously you can counter it any number of ways.

[ScytheEleven]

welcome to assassins and they get stealth. and to be honest your statement is dumb because you can go tank spec and already get this... obviously you can counter it any number of ways.

 

Sin Tanks get the pull, not the entire class. We are talking about DPS VG's and PT's getting Storm/Jet Charge. And yes, it would break this class beyond belief.

 

Let's examine how this would work against Sorcs:

 

Jet Charge/Storm to target

Sorc uses knockback

VG/PT uses Harpoon/Grapple

Sorc roots and runs away.

VG/PT uses Hydraulics/Hold the Line

Sorc is now dead.

 

There is NO counter to that. It's not a problem for the tank trees to get Storm/Jet Charge since they aren't capable of destroying face in about 5 GCD's like our DPS trees are. Plus, tanks NEED the ability to leap to targets that are attacking their guarded alley so they can peel efficiently.

 

DPS PTs/VGs do not need Storm/Jet Charge.

Edited March 6, 2014 by ScytheEleven

[Luckeyduckey]

Sin Tanks get the pull, not the entire class. We are talking about DPS VG's and PT's getting Storm/Jet Charge. And yes, it would break this class beyond belief.

 

Let's examine how this would work against Sorcs:

 

Jet Charge/Storm to target

Sorc uses knockback

VG/PT uses Harpoon/Grapple

Sorc roots and runs away.

VG/PT uses Hydraulics/Hold the Line

Sorc is now dead.

 

There is NO counter to that. It's not a problem for the tank trees to get Storm/Jet Charge since they aren't capable of destroying face in about 5 GCD's like our DPS trees are. Plus, tanks NEED the ability to leap to targets that are attacking their guarded alley so they can peel efficiently.

 

DPS PTs/VGs do not need Storm/Jet Charge.

 

Agreed. Especially if you're AP, you'd be able to position Flamethrowers by leaping, Carbo, Flamethrower, and hit an entire respawn team, without giving them a chance to spread out, or leave you vulnerable to running in. As a Pyro, try to get away from me. When I swap toons, it's so *********** annoying to have a PT on my ***, it's not even funny.

[Kooziejr]

These jet charge/storm threads make me cry :'(

[Kooziejr]

Sin Tanks get the pull, not the entire class. We are talking about DPS VG's and PT's getting Storm/Jet Charge. And yes, it would break this class beyond belief.

 

Let's examine how this would work against Sorcs:

 

Jet Charge/Storm to target

Sorc uses knockback

VG/PT uses Harpoon/Grapple

Sorc roots and runs away.

VG/PT uses Hydraulics/Hold the Line

Sorc is now dead.

 

There is NO counter to that. It's not a problem for the tank trees to get Storm/Jet Charge since they aren't capable of destroying face in about 5 GCD's like our DPS trees are. Plus, tanks NEED the ability to leap to targets that are attacking their guarded alley so they can peel efficiently.

 

DPS PTs/VGs do not need Storm/Jet Charge.

 

I admire your diligence and obviously agree with everything you said!

[TheSupaCoopa]

Sin Tanks get the pull, not the entire class. We are talking about DPS VG's and PT's getting Storm/Jet Charge. And yes, it would break this class beyond belief.

 

Let's examine how this would work against Sorcs:

 

Jet Charge/Storm to target

Sorc uses knockback

VG/PT uses Harpoon/Grapple

Sorc roots and runs away.

VG/PT uses Hydraulics/Hold the Line

Sorc is now dead.

 

There is NO counter to that. It's not a problem for the tank trees to get Storm/Jet Charge since they aren't capable of destroying face in about 5 GCD's like our DPS trees are. Plus, tanks NEED the ability to leap to targets that are attacking their guarded alley so they can peel efficiently.

 

DPS PTs/VGs do not need Storm/Jet Charge.

 

Duran'del here:

 

How about Jet Charge only being useable on Non-player targets unless you are a Tank? That could make both groups happy, right?

[AmagonofBloodfin]

Sin Tanks get the pull, not the entire class. We are talking about DPS VG's and PT's getting Storm/Jet Charge. And yes, it would break this class beyond belief.

 

Let's examine how this would work against Sorcs:

 

Jet Charge/Storm to target

Sorc uses knockback

VG/PT uses Harpoon/Grapple

Sorc roots and runs away.

VG/PT uses Hydraulics/Hold the Line

Sorc is now dead.

 

There is NO counter to that. It's not a problem for the tank trees to get Storm/Jet Charge since they aren't capable of destroying face in about 5 GCD's like our DPS trees are. Plus, tanks NEED the ability to leap to targets that are attacking their guarded alley so they can peel efficiently.

 

DPS PTs/VGs do not need Storm/Jet Charge.

 

problem is you are balancing against one class and assuming (rather conveniently) that all cooldowns are up.

 

fail.

Edited March 10, 2014 by AmagonofBloodfin

[JMagee]

problem is you are balancing against one class and assuming (rather conveniently) that all cooldowns are up.

 

fail.

 

CDs used in that example: Storm, Harpoon, HtL

 

Storm CD: 15s

Harpoon CD: 45s (can be talented down to 35s in Tactics)

HtL CD: 30s. 6 sec uptime per 30s. (can be talented up to 10sec duration in Tactics)

 

This exact chain of events could happen every ~35sec. Hardly a rare occurrence, especially in an arena. Where if it happens once, it could result in a quarter of your team, potentially the healer, being dead.

 

So yea, OP.

Edited March 10, 2014 by JMagee

[ctor]

Not having a gap closer does make me lose dps in ops, despite what you all say. Giving a gap closer in pvp would basically break the class, yes. To fix that, all you have to do is make it so harpoon pulls you to the target if the target has boss immunity. Before they do that though, they should be buffing assault dots and nerfing charged bolts. If you don't think dps vanguards could seriously use a gap closer in pve, you clearly don't pve.

[Gyronamics]

Not having a gap closer does make me lose dps in ops, despite what you all say. Giving a gap closer in pvp would basically break the class, yes. To fix that, all you have to do is make it so harpoon pulls you to the target if the target has boss immunity. Before they do that though, they should be buffing assault dots and nerfing charged bolts. If you don't think dps vanguards could seriously use a gap closer in pve, you clearly don't pve.

 

I completely agree that many people will see their dps increase if they dont have to learn mechanics and can simply leap to the boss when it moves.

 

Mind you this is why sentinels have a reputation of being CC breaking idiots who have hilarious deaths as they jump to adds pushed into a pit because a leap allows and encourages less consideration of a fight.

 

Of course this is all a perception problem as a developer once said and I fully agree.

 

When your class has great damage it overrules any other issues it has.

 

When it's not the best at damage then its ok to moan about anything.

 

Assault Commando is utter garbage as a PVP class, it takes more damage than Gunnery and doesn't bring the raid useful armour debuff, but who cares, it does the dps and its pve where you dont need to be good at anything other than basic movement and your rotation.

 

 

In other words, if damage was improved on a VG people would shut up about gap closers because it wasn't an issue when VG were the best DPS and nothing about movement has changed since then.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Gyronamics

[ctor]

I completely agree that many people will see their dps increase if they dont have to learn mechanics and can simply leap to the boss when it moves.

 

Mind you this is why sentinels have a reputation of being CC breaking idiots who have hilarious deaths as they jump to adds pushed into a pit because a leap allows and encourages less consideration of a fight.

 

Of course this is all a perception problem as a developer once said and I fully agree.

 

When your class has great damage it overrules any other issues it has.

 

When it's not the best at damage then its ok to moan about anything.

 

Assault Commando is utter garbage as a PVP class, it takes more damage than Gunnery and doesn't bring the raid useful armour debuff, but who cares, it does the dps and its pve where you dont need to be good at anything other than basic movement and your rotation.

 

 

In other words, if damage was improved on a VG people would shut up about gap closers because it wasn't an issue when VG were the best DPS and nothing about movement has changed since then.

 

You clearly don't get it either. Vanguard dps could compensate for melee unfriendly mechanics because they did have the damage. Now post 2.0, they don't have the movement or damage ability. You claim a gap closer would allow vanguards to "bypass" fight mechanics by just leaping to the boss. I have bad news for you. You clearly don't play a vanguard, so let me tell you how it really works. Nightmare fights have an incredible amount of rng. Bosses and adds have random spawns, and therefore cannot be "learned." There are numerous examples of this, but you should go do nightmare olok and brontes on a vanguard dps and get back to me. Even if you knew where the boss is going to spawn next, you lose damage if you aren't in melee range.The perception problem would go away if they were on par with other dps classes in a raid setting, yes. A gap closer would help to compensate for the lack of sustained damage, by maximizing the uptime on a boss. The perception problem lies with people that don't understand how a class really works.

[Gyronamics]

You clearly don't get it either. Vanguard dps could compensate for melee unfriendly mechanics because they did have the damage. Now post 2.0, they don't have the movement or damage ability. You claim a gap closer would allow vanguards to "bypass" fight mechanics by just leaping to the boss. I have bad news for you. You clearly don't play a vanguard, so let me tell you how it really works. Nightmare fights have an incredible amount of rng. Bosses and adds have random spawns, and therefore cannot be "learned." There are numerous examples of this, but you should go do nightmare olok and brontes on a vanguard dps and get back to me. Even if you knew where the boss is going to spawn next, you lose damage if you aren't in melee range.The perception problem would go away if they were on par with other dps classes in a raid setting, yes. A gap closer would help to compensate for the lack of sustained damage, by maximizing the uptime on a boss. The perception problem lies with people that don't understand how a class really works.

 

In all that fluff you merely repeated it all back to me.

 

And agreed with me that the gap closer is not an issue at all and VG have no mechanical failure by not having a leap in PVE.

 

You simply want MOAR DPS and don't really care how you get it, at the moment you think a gap closer will do it while ignoring the issues that would cause in PVP combined with HTL and Harpoon.

 

But the baseline is you want more damage and with more damage all other issues will be unimportant.

 

As for the gratuitous slurs, I have a 55 VG and a 55 slinger and a 55 commando, would you like to make some more vacuous claims on what I say based on that or will you realise you are agreeing with what I said.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Gyronamics

[ctor]

In all that fluff you merely repeated it all back to me.

 

And agreed with me that the gap closer is not an issue at all and VG have no mechanical failure by not having a leap in PVE.

 

You simply want MOAR DPS and don't really care how you get it, at the moment you think a gap closer will do it while ignoring the issues that would cause in PVP combined with HTL and Harpoon.

 

But the baseline is you want more damage and with more damage all other issues will be unimportant.

 

As for the gratuitous slurs, I have a 55 VG and a 55 slinger and a 55 commando, would you like to make some more vacuous claims on what I say based on that or will you realise you are agreeing with what I said.

 

You aren't reading my posts at all. I just gave you two examples of why not having a gap closer is a problem, do you need more? Before that, my suggestion for a gap closer would not even apply to your argument; it would have no influence on pvp at all. The entire argument is based around the fact that vanguards aren't on par with other classes in movement or damage. If I didn't care about pvp, I would just say make storm baseline and buff high impact. The solution is to buff the dots for damage, and my suggestion for a gap closer. Of course this is going to have a minor effect on pvp, I'm not saying it won't. The idea is to buff pve while having minimal affect on pvp. There's no point in even arguing with people like you,

[Gyronamics]

Vanguard dps could compensate for melee unfriendly mechanics because they did have the damage.

 

Your own words.

 

As you say, there is no argument.

[ctor]

Your own words.

 

As you say, there is no argument.

 

Once again, you ignore my "fluff" of proving how you are incorrect, and cater to your own personal agenda of how it would "break" the class so badly. You are claiming that since they "once had great damage with a lack of mobility, they don't need mobility now." Do you realize how retarded that sounds? No one is going to complain if you have to walk to a target to do more dps than everyone else. The problem is they currently don't do more damage. Are you saying vanguards don't need a damage buff or a gap closer?

 

Please show me your 4k vanguard dummy parse.

 

 

PS. I wasn't aware pvpers had boss immunity.

[Gyronamics]

If you can happily say along with me that mobiliy was not an issue previously then the claims of needing a leap are void and you should simply be honest and say you want a straight damage buff.

[LordKantner]

How about Vanguardian Leap?

[Davionix]

If you can happily say along with me that mobiliy was not an issue previously then the claims of needing a leap are void and you should simply be honest and say you want a straight damage buff.

 

INCOMING WALL OF TEXT ! EVASIVE MANEUVERS !

 

1. After range of Incendinary Round and Assault Plastique had been nerfed ( because of PvP concerns ) to 10m mobility was STILL an issue in PvE previously. Nowadays only abilities you can use at 30m are : Hammer Shot, Sticky Grenade, Explosive Round, Full Auto and Mortar Volley. Latter two are not ideal mobility abilities because while they deal better damage then former three they also require channeling which means that you can not use them while moving towards your target. In other words, extra damage Full Auto & Mortar Volley have others is forfeited by the necessity to stay still to use them.
    
    
    
   You can try to use Hold The Line and anticipating movements to make up for it but they are not enough. Example : You get Doom at Dread Guards and have to run to green puddles. After getting rid of Doom only for Ciphas to jump to some ranged to choke them. You use Hold The Line to run to Ciphas only for him to jump back to tank as soon his force choke is interrupted. You can not wait for him to get back because you both lose dps uptime and maybe able to interrupt before any other dps who maybe otherwise occupied. You do not move = Possible death from force choke / Loss of dps and possible enrage. You do move = Loss of dps uptime since all you can do while running is spam hammer shot, sticky grenade and explosive round ( depending on your ammo situation )
    
    
   
2. Before nerf to Plasma Cell dot damage in 2.0 this decrease in mobility did not effect PvE performance drastically since you could try to keep plasma cell up as much as you can ( spamming hammer shot and ion pulse as soon as you got into 10m range ) while running to target.
    
    
   
3. However, with the Rise of The Hutt Cartel Plasma Cell damage was nerfed. In addition to that chance to trigger plasma cell with Ion Pulse was reduced from 100% to only 60% where as chance to trigger it with stockstrike was raised from 0% to 100% ( again due to PvP concers. Look at threads containing following keywords "perma-snare by Assault / pyro" "Ion pulse spam to win" )
    
    
   
4. To make up for the lost damage of Plasma Cell Assault Plastique was changed from direct damage only to a mixture of direct damage and DoT effect, some other talents were modified to increase damage and / or surge rating of filler abilities other than ion pulse.
    
    
   
5. Combined effect of these changes was gradual LOSS OF MOBILITY from launch until Rise of The Hutt Cartel and gradual LOSS OF DAMAGE from Rise of The Hutt Cartel until now.
    
    
   
6. To adress LOSS OF DAMAGE developers gave survivability cooldowns to Assault Spec at the cost of killing the Tactics - Assault hybrid. While these survivability cooldowns greatly helped with PvP the utility gained from them in the limited times they are put to use are not enough to make up for the loss of both survivability and damage.
    
    
   
7. From launch until Rise of The Hutt Cartel Tactics had just Hold The Line for mobility while having inferior damage to Assault. From Rise of the Hutt Cartel until now Tactics gained significant damage boost to be a ( plausible for single target fights and complete for fights with adds ) alternative to Assault while getting no additional mobility.
    
   
8. Since launch and Rise of The Hutt Cartel other melee classes had to undergo some changes regarding their damage potential as well but their options for mobility ( as in gap closers or moves to use while closing the gap ) has not been affected as bad as Vanguards. ( Scoundrels got the roll, Sentinels got the twin saber throw, guardians got the faster in combat movement speed Tactics gets for vigilance, shadows got phase walk )
   How beneficial these changes were to each respective advanced class in relation to change to their damage potential is debatable.
    
    
   
9. From my experiences with these ( some more than others ) advanced classes, I say that only Vanguards and Shadows are in a bad position for PvE. Shadows because their decent mobility is undermined by their lackluster PvE damage and Vanguards for their mediocre mobility and mediocre damage potential.
    
   

 

My preference in this discussion is that I do not want storm as a base skill because that would mean I would have to remove something from my ability bars to make up room for it as well I would rather have developers find a way to give us back the range versatility on the run ( other than sticky grenade and lolexplosive round) we have lost without making us op at pvp or if they want us to operate at the effective range we do then make that harpoon pull us to boss immune targets idea a reality.

 

TL;DR : You are wrong. Mobility has been a a disadvantage for a long time. This problem became WORSE, not a new issue, after reduced damage potential got added on top of it.