Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

[colemanron]

Issue 1: Reverting to the bugged, unintended AoE situation that was TK pre 2.7 would be a mistake. Do I miss my AoE capabilities? Yes. Do I think it was a necessary change? Yes. While the bug causing the hardcast TK Wave to eat the Tidal Force proc is annoying, I've taken to using TK Wave > Disturbance > TK Wave for AoE situations to avert this problem. I'd like to see this get fixed, don't get me wrong, but there are ways to work around it.

 

Issue 2: This is a L2P issue regarding player timing not necessarily lag. So long as your latency is consistent, you can time your clip based off your cast. My only qualm is that this change makes the spec even more boring than it was before. Granted it does play quite a bit faster so that's a nice change from the pedestrian nature of the spec before.

 

Issue 3: The devs addressed KBN's post on the PTS regarding this and said they're looking into pushback. No need to burn a question on this.

 

Out of these, the only thing that MAY merit a question is the consumption of Tidal Force by a hardcast TK Wave. As it stands the current questions have more merit than any of these. The only exception possibly being Balance DPS which the devs have already said they're looking into. Sufficient response?

 

 

Your tone totally sound like as if I just screwed your mom. Let me tell you straight up: I did not. Or at least I don't know about it.

 

 

Issue 1: As I said, I don't want the old AoE back. I said it, to make it obvious, the rest of the explanation will not be about how I'm crying to get it back, so people will not stop reading as soon as they see Lightning AoE. Not sure why you would feel the need to state and explain it again.

 

The whole idea of pointing out broken mechanics is that we don't want to work around them. I don't want to anyway. They are not working as intended, so I want them fixed, instead of losing more DPS with workarounds like yours, than I already do due to other broken mechanics.

 

 

Issue 2: Sure, it is just as simple, as hitting the button at the right time, but even if the server you play on is right in your neighborhood, the lag will never be 100% consistent. Especially not since we are playing Lag Wars, where weird stuff is happening every minute, and it is not uncommon to see non-Sin people teleport in pvp for example. The idea of the ability queue is to defeat lag, instead of trying to hit the buttons at the right moment. Also the ability has 4 ticks, so breaking it at 3 ticks is clearly not the intended way of using it, which means some kind of fix will be required at some point. Probably they don't plan on releasing it before 3.0, but it can't hurt to ask.

 

Again you're coming up with workarounds, instead of solutions. Thank you, I would rather have the devs tell me I need to L2P, because I am supposed to be able to break that channel at the right moment, and I should not have the benefit of using the ability queue. Don't take it personally, but I consider their word having more weight than yours.

 

 

Issue 3: They did say, they are looking into ability pushback overall, but they did not acknowledge the particular issue Lightning has. Considering how easily it could be fixed, I definitely think it would be worth putting into a DPS QoL question, if it were asked, because it might even make it into a 2.7.x patch.

 

Also if they do anything about ability pushback overall, most likely it is not going to happen before 3.0, meaning for almost another 6 months. It may surprise you, but I would not like to "work around" their broken mechanics all the time until then.

 

 

So overall no, I did not find your comment on mine particularly satisfying. I don't want workarounds, I want fixes. Also for the record, I did not suggest all these issues to be asked as separate questions, but rather as one big question about DPS QoL, where more and/or other issues could be implemented too.

 

Using your way of thinking, I will say: all Sages need to L2P. If you don't like the animations of your abilities, just close your eyes while they are on screen. There is always a way to work around them, we really should not waste a question on an issue like this. /sarcasm

Edited April 14, 2014 by colemanron

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Your tone totally sound like as if I just screwed your mom. Let me tell you straight up: I did not. Or at least I don't know about it.

 

 

Issue 1: As I said, I don't want the old AoE back. I said it, to make it obvious, the rest of the explanation will not be about how I'm crying to get it back, so people will not stop reading as soon as they see Lightning AoE. Not sure why you would feel the need to state and explain it again.

 

The whole idea of pointing out broken mechanics is that we don't want to work around them. I don't want to anyway. They are not working as intended, so I want them fixed, instead of losing more DPS with workarounds like yours, than I already do due to other broken mechanics.

 

 

Issue 2: Sure, it is just as simple, as hitting the button at the right time, but even if the server you play on is right in your neighborhood, the lag will never be 100% consistent. Especially not since we are playing Lag Wars, where weird stuff is happening every minute, and it is not uncommon to see non-Sin people teleport in pvp for example. The idea of the ability queue is to defeat lag, instead of trying to hit the buttons at the right moment. Also the ability has 4 ticks, so breaking it at 3 ticks is clearly not the intended way of using it, which means some kind of fix will be required at some point. Probably they don't plan on releasing it before 3.0, but it can't hurt to ask.

 

Again you're coming up with workarounds, instead of solutions. Thank you, I would rather have the devs tell me I need to L2P, because I am supposed to be able to break that channel at the right moment, and I should not have the benefit of using the ability queue. Don't take it personally, but I consider their word having more weight than yours.

 

 

Issue 3: They did say, they are looking into ability pushback overall, but they did not acknowledge the particular issue Lightning has. Considering how easily it could be fixed, I definitely think it would be worth putting into a DPS QoL question, if it were asked, because it might even make it into a 2.7.x patch.

 

Also if they do anything about ability pushback overall, most likely it is not going to happen before 3.0, meaning for almost another 6 months. It may surprise you, but I would not like to "work around" their broken mechanics all the time until then.

 

 

So overall no, I did not find your comment on mine particularly satisfying. I don't want workarounds, I want fixes. Also for the record, I did not suggest all these issues to be asked as separate questions, but rather as one big question about DPS QoL, where more and/or other issues could be implemented too.

 

Using your way of thinking, I will say: all Sages need to L2P. If you don't like the animations of your abilities, just close your eyes while they are on screen. There is always a way to work around them, we really should not waste a question on an issue like this. /sarcasm

 

Let's see, I said I would like to see the hardcst tk wave eating tidal force bug fixed and suggested a workaround in the meanwhile. Interesting, it seems we agree on that (I'm ignoring statements in your original post for this).

 

As far as the telekinetic throw business goes, it's just timing. Inconsistent lag? Hit the button at the correct time anyway. This isn't a workaround. It's just learn your class.

 

Considering in the original post about pushback that the devs answered, TK/lightning was addressed as one of the biggest sufferers I really have no idea what you're complaining about. I'd love to see it so I can cast mind crush during phases where all damage counts, but for now I'll wait just like I have been. Did I mention a workaround here? No? Ok. Did I agree with you on some things? Yes. Did I disagree on some things? Yes. Was I a bit cynical? Maybe. Oh and thanks for understanding my way of thinking. Everyone must L2P. End of story. <-sarcastic

 

I'm going to go close my eyes and imagine throwing camels at Brontes for a while. It's an easy workaround to just dying to get. Just letting you know, the only "tone" in my post came from the last sentence. Goos fraba.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Mr_Fuzzle

[colemanron]

Let's see, I said I would like to see the hardcst tk wave eating tidal force bug fixed and suggested a workaround in the meanwhile. Interesting, it seems we agree on that (I'm ignoring statements in your original post for this).

 

As far as the telekinetic throw business goes, it's just timing. Inconsistent lag? Hit the button at the correct time anyway. This isn't a workaround. It's just learn your class.

 

Considering in the original post about pushback that the devs answered, TK/lightning was addressed as one of the biggest sufferers I really have no idea what you're complaining about. I'd love to see it so I can cast mind crush during phases where all damage counts, but for now I'll wait just like I have been. Did I mention a workaround here? No? Ok. Did I agree with you on some things? Yes. Did I disagree on some things? Yes. Was I a bit cynical? Maybe. Oh and thanks for understanding my way of thinking. Everyone must L2P. End of story. <-sarcastic

 

I'm going to go close my eyes and imagine throwing camels at Brontes for a while. It's an easy workaround to just dying to get. Just letting you know, the only "tone" in my post came from the last sentence. Goos fraba.

 

 

Apparently we agree on the first one.

 

 

 

As for the second how is trying to break the channel at the right moment not a workaround for the lag, the ability's poor design and the ability queue we can't use? What does either have to do with learning the class exactly?

 

 

 

In the dev response you mentioned, Lightning/TK was not addressed as one of the biggest sufferers. It was addressed by KBN in his original post, and the devs put in a generalized comment on how they are discussing the possible removal of pushback altogether. They did not comment on Lightning/TK at all, nor did they say the pushback removal was definitely going to happen. Meaning it might get fixed in the distant future as part of a rehaul to a game system, but they did not acknowledge the issue of the spec.

 

Also while you did not offer a workaround, we need to work around this anyway, because it is broken. As you said it yourself, "I'd love to see it so I can cast mind crush during phases where all damage counts, but for now I'll wait just like I have been" Well, I don't want to wait anymore. I want it fixed, and they could definitely fix it for the class specifically, as they did to other classes, and at some point in the future they could do whatever with pushback overall, whenever they are done planning and discussing. Would it be too much to ask?

Edited April 14, 2014 by colemanron

[Hakkology]

I have to get these out of my system, here is what i make of the 2.7 changes after some more testing.

 

About AoE, to be honest thats what i liked about my AC, it was like having a second rotation specially for AoEs.

AoE damage we had was OP, thats for sure but that was the design principle. A class that wears light armor getting %15 dmg reduction would be better with some impact, some glass cannon utility on its abilities and AoE was the way. If there is no reward for the risk you are taking, why am i playing a light armor class ?

 

About 2.7, let's face it, currently we have got a lot of QoL buffs and they were all to hide how bad they screwed up our class' design principle. Right now we are merely a mediocre RDPS with its pushback issues.

I love how they are trying to make our class "hard to master" by giving us pushback on its core abilities. Mind Crush, stupid but acceptable, TK Throw ? You make it a core part of the TK rotation and it has pushback.

And even devs accept balance dps is way behind compared to others amongst sustained dps classes. I have absolute respect for those that still play balance for any reason, with its current state.

 

From a developer viewpoint, AoE dmg nerf was something they had in mind with the upcoming NiMM operation i suppose and sage/sorc was the one that got the most hit. To be honest this is like the first time a dev getting this intimate with players on the PTS post, because they know they screwed up with this patch.

 

I truly don't understand how people get to accept the changes with 2.7.

[Ycoga]

If I were going for improvements, cleanses working on all damage types and being on a slightly shorter cooldown would be nice.

 

I would love to see cleanse in the Seer tree being turned into an AOE effect with 3m radius.

[KeyboardNinja]

I just re-read the questions, and I caught this item:

 

Sages have only two weapon attacks and those attacks do not benefit from our main stat Willpower.

 

They do, actually. Your melee bonus damage is increased by willpower (hover over melee bonus in your character sheet). Melee bonus damage directly affects the damage of both Double Strike and Saber Strike. This point also affects the "actual question" section.

Edited April 14, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[AlrikFassbauer]

They do, actually. Your melee bonus damage is increased by willpower (hover over melee bonus in your character sheet). Melee bonus damage directly affects the damage of both Double Strike and Saber Strike. This point also affects the "actual question" section.

 

Within this discussion someone wrote that Strength is the stat the Lightsabre attacks benefit from more. Or at least so I understood it.

Edited April 14, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[KeyboardNinja]

Within this discussion someone wrote that Strength is the stat the Lightsabre attacks benefit from more. Or at least so I understood it.

 

Strength and Willpower affect lightsaber attacks equally. Unless I'm completely off-base and misremembering my character sheet and sages/sorcs are somehow inconsistent with how secondary stats work throughout the rest of the game (e.g. Cunning for a Commando, or Strength for a Shadow).

Edited April 14, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Master-Nala]

Strength and Willpower affect lightsaber attacks equally. Unless I'm completely off-base and misremembering my character sheet and sages/sorcs are somehow inconsistent with how secondary stats work throughout the rest of the game (e.g. Cunning for a Commando, or Strength for a Shadow).

 

That's how it works for every class EXCEPT Sages (and Sorcerers). As I stated above, Sages LOSE Willpower's melee damage benefits (both bonus damage and crit) when they select the AC. Just verified that in game. Sage's melee attacks only benefit from Strength.

 

Shot of Willpower tab

 

Shot of Melee tab

 

Hopefully those screenshots work.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Master-Nala

[MidichIorian]

The dirty little secret about sage melee is that if you gear your sage as a sent (just stack strenght, power, surge) you'll wreck people. Double strike will hit for about 15K and saber strike for 3K. You will easily parse +4K.

[Master-Nala]

The dirty little secret about sage melee is that if you gear your sage as a sent (just stack strenght, power, surge) you'll wreck people. Double strike will hit for about 15K and saber strike for 3K. You will easily parse +4K.

 

People will think you're serious...

[KeyboardNinja]

The dirty little secret about sage melee is that if you gear your sage as a sent (just stack strenght, power, surge) you'll wreck people. Double strike will hit for about 15K and saber strike for 3K. You will easily parse +4K.

 

That would require a bonus damage of 8659.78. Assuming a 2:1 distribution of Strength and Power (since there are no strength bonuses in the sage tree), that much bonus damage equates to 12496 strength and 24992 power! So yes, you will wreck people…if you have access to gear that is 4 times more powerful than any items currently in the game.

 

As for the loss of willpower affecting melee bonus damage, that's really screwy. I stand corrected!

Edited April 14, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[MidichIorian]

People will think you're serious...

I'm still going to gear my sage in strenght gear, parse and record it as soon as I get home

 

Yeah I'm in a really weird place right now.

[Mr_Fuzzle]

That would require a bonus damage of 8659.78. Assuming a 2:1 distribution of Strength and Power (since there are no strength bonuses in the sage tree), that much bonus damage equates to 12496 strength and 24992 power! So yes, you will wreck people…if you have access to gear that is 4 times more powerful than any items currently in the game.

 

As for the loss of willpower affecting melee bonus damage, that's really screwy. I stand corrected!

 

hold on, KBN said "I stand corrected"? This is some end of the world stuff right here. Dogs laying with cats and everything.

[Ycoga]

Time for another analysis of your questions!

 

Survivability

 

The community believes that Sage survivability suffers from a number of inherent problems with its defensive tools.

Not all of us! I don't think this is true in 2.7.

 

In order to use Force Armor or Force Mend on yourself, you need to use a global cooldown. And in the case of Force Armor use 5%-10% of your resources. That's simply an unacceptable trade off in most PvE situations. For example in Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where a raid member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire raid. In many of these cases, Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is mitigated by armor and Sages have the worst armor.

This is relevant - but it should be made clear that the survivability question relates specifically to PVE only. PVP survivability has been directly improved by the fixes made to weapon damage in PVP - both on the healing and burst sides - in 2.7.

 

Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in all play environments? What is your philosophy towards the Sage class and its defenses? Are there any plans to improve the class's current survival tools? For example, by perhaps by providing a means with which to move our tools (Force Armor, Force Mend, etc.) off the GCD when cast on yourself?

A good question, gj.

 

Seer Spec Issues

 

The Noble Sacrifice/Consumption mechanic is really unique, and the community agrees that in PvE at least it provides Seer/Corruption with a sensible mechanic for restoring Force. In PvP, this mechanic presents very serious problems. Sage healers are one of the priority targets for being focused and in that situation purposefully sacrificing your health to maintain force is not possible. This is exacerbated by the issue of Sage healers being reliant on casts. This puts the Sage in the unenviable situation of having to stay still to restore health and Force.

Please note that there's little benefit for the risk in this mechanic, when you use NobleSac for force, and then spend it on heals to heal the NobleSac damage.

 

Also, while Benevolence has its uses in emergency situations and off healing as a DPS, for Seer Sages this ability is very underwhelming and rarely used.

Au contraire; in 2.7 this ability is fantastic when used after Barrier to facetank and H2F with enduring bastion. This surely should be factored in to your thoughts.

 

Finally, certain set bonuses are imbalanced between PvE and PvP. For example, the sage healer is incentivized to get the PvE mystic 2 piece, which is non-ideal but doable in the presence of bolster.

Sage gearing in general is peculiar (e.g. I choose use the Stalker set for an extra Potency charge). It might make sense to ask a gearing-specific question as has been suggested - I don't think it'll get proper attention as an aside.

 

The actual question

 

Are the developers considering any changes to Seer spec in light of these or any other issues?

A rather general question don't you think? The more specific you are the higher the chance of useful detail. I suggest you focus on Gearing as mentioned above, perhaps using sentinel gear as a comparison - the bonuses provided by their gear are obviously beneficial, whereas the Sage bonuses are non-specific (see 'stalker' example above).

 

Sage as Jedi

 

While the majority of these class representative questions, both Sages and other classes, have been about balance issues, the Sage community has a unique concern shared in some respects with our mirror class, the Sorcerer but in some ways unique to the Sage class. Put bluntly, the class has some visual and mechanical issues that make it feel more like a traditional mage class instead of a Jedi Knight. There are two main reasons for this: (1) We don’t use our lightsaber for anything; (2) Several animations lack the feeling of power. Discussing those in turn.

 

Sages and Sorcerers are force using classes and as such have the lightsaber as a weapon proficiency. In addition, our force free attack Saber Strike is a melee attack. The game mechanics, however, go out of their way to ensure that players have no incentive to use their lightsaber for any reason. Sages have only two weapon attacks and those attacks do not benefit from our main stat Willpower. This results in the unique situation of Sages (and Sorcerers) being the only class that does not use their main weapon for anything save a stat boost. This is directly LORE breaking as even the archetypal Sage and Sorcerer, Yoda and Palpatine were gifted melee combatants.

 

The second issue is with respect to certain animations of the Sage specifically. With the understanding that to mirror the consular and inquisitor classes, certain design choices had to be made, nevertheless many members of the Sage community question the appropriateness of two signature moves of the consular, Project and Telekinetic Throw. It is questionable whether Jedi should be using the force in this manner from a LORE perspective. Yoda tells us, “A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never to attack.” And the only force users in the movies to use telekinesis to throw items as an attack are the Sith: Darth Vader (in Ep.V), Darth Tyranus (in Ep. 2 & 3) and Darth Sidious (In Ep.3) Also, some players simply consider TK Throw particularly to be a lackluster animation that lacks the coolness factor of lightning on the Sith side – and nowhere in six movies or a host of licensed games, has debris throwing been a signature jedi move. For more information see http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=718365

 

The actual question

 

Will the developer do anything to ameliorate these issues? Examples include allowing Willpower to affect melee attacks; providing additional worthwhile lightsaber attacks; and offering alternate animations via the Cartel Market or otherwise (Marketing take note! ).

This is still my favourite question, gj.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Ycoga

[colemanron]

For the record: are the topics of the questions finalized then?

[Hakkology]

I like the questions, i only wish pushback on TKThrow and balance dps falling behind would be in them somehow.

Third question is something i really want to ask as well, but maybe its better to use that question for more technical issues instead of aesthetic changes.

 

Up to you and the majority, i'll agree either way.

[Master-Nala]

I like the questions, i only wish pushback on TKThrow and balance dps falling behind would be in them somehow.

Third question is something i really want to ask as well, but maybe its better to use that question for more technical issues instead of aesthetic changes.

 

Up to you and the majority, i'll agree either way.

 

There have been enough folks pushing for it that I think it needs to stay. And it's not wholly aesthetic. The melee attack thing involves a mechanics issue.

[Master-Nala]

For the record: are the topics of the questions finalized then?

 

At this point I would think so. Besides what people have posted here, I've looked back over the Sage and Sorc forums and these issues come up again and again. I'm going to try to refine them more, but I think these topics should be the 3. 2.7 dealt with some serious QoL issues and took some stuff off the table, like Balance force issues.

 

EDITS ARE UP. I'VE MOVED THE DISCUSSION OF THE SET BONUSES TO FEEDBACK.

 

I would like to bulk that section up, so if you have concerns with set bonuses, please post comments.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Ycoga]

Those look great to me. Thanks Nala!

[judgeender]

Suggested edits for question 1. Add the bold/italics, delete the underlined.

 

PvE - Survivability

 

The developers stated in the Sorcerer answers that healing is intended to make up a significant part of Sage survivability and the suggestion of providing defensive cooldowns besides Force Mend and Force Barrier were rejected outright. The community believes that Sage survivability suffers from a number of inherent problems with its defensive tools.

 

In order to use Force Armor or Force Mend on yourself, you need to use a global cooldown. And in the case of Force Armor use 5%-10% of your resources. That's simply an unacceptable trade off in most PvE situations. For example in Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V and now in DF), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where a raid member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire raid [operation. In many of these cases, Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is mitigated by armor and Sages have the worst armor. Although these issues exist in every fight, they are very evident in the final fight of DF, particularly the last phase of Brontes which is a very high DPS check with significant damage going out (both AOE and randomly targetted). Spending GCDs and resources rather than DPSing increases the chance of a wipe. Moreover, Force Barrier is lackluster as it (i) requires the Sage/Sorc to stop DPSing/performing their role increasing the chance of a wipe and (ii) in the case of orbs causes the orb to target another player potentially resulting in further problems. Although Sages/Sorcs are still able to clear the content, the community is concerned that their lower survivability makes them less desirable for progression content.

 

This has caused many in the community to speculate that Sages are intended to be a "glass cannon," frail but able to pack a punch. Sages, however, don't have the inverse advantage in damage to survival that one would expect if that was the case. Many spirited discussions have issued debating this question of the theory of Sage survivability and we invite the developers to take part.

 

The question

 

Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in all play environments? What is your philosophy towards the Sage class and its defenses? Are there any plans to improve the class's current survival tools? For example, by perhaps by providing a means with which to move our tools (Force Armor, Force Mend, etc.) off the GCD when cast on yourself?

[colemanron]

Fair enough. I would suggest then to add the issues I brought up earlier to feedback.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Just personally, I'd like to get the problem of LOS in arena-like boss-fights (Brontes, Styrak and other environments) added to the survivability, since the devs insisyted in the Sorc answers that Sorcs should rely a lot on LOS ... But that's my personal opinion - I'm fine with the questions as they are today anyway.

[MusicRider]

Overall the questions IMHO look fine. Maybe the intro leading to the question could be shortened but if by doing so it losses the message then so be it as long as it is.

 

I do have a counter-question to question 1 though, and I am not trying to play devil's advocate here, it's really a genuine question. The key point of the q1 is, "how do you devs feel about taking off the gcd self-cast static barrier and self-heal". IMHO that is pretty good. But, in the intro a key arguement for this is that: "sages wear light armor, therefore they take the most damage than any other class that does not wear light armor". I am a little bit confused about this... Since q1 is taken from a pve point of view solely, then what I don't understand is to what extend this is true. What I mean is that during an organised op/fp/pve whatever there are tanks that keep the aggro, only during particular mechanics someone else is taking damage, and in these cases each class has its own DCds, some have damage reduction, some have damage mitigation, others heals.... What does armor have to do with it? It is not that you are taking constant damage so you can't have a DCd up and then armor plays a role.... I like the idea of "please let us use our DCds without hindering our primary roles, both heal or dps", but the light armor arguement for some reason is not selling it to me. I may be missing something so if someone has a different view, it would be great to hear it.

[judgeender]

The issue is that, in NiM Ops, there are numerous examples of random damage (one or more members are targetted to take a hit) or AOE damage (whole raid gets hit). In many cases, those attacks deal damage that is mitigated by armor. That means that on those hits/multiple hits in many AOE cases, sages/sorcs take more damage from each hit. That means they require more healer attention (or have to use more GCDs to heal themselves). The disparity in damage taken can be quite large, even before accounting for other classes using DCDs. While not a complete solution, if they started designing fights such that armor did not impact damage taken, we'd at least start on an even footing with other classes. Regardless, as it exists now, it plays into survivability: we are starting at a disadvantage even before considering DCDs. Edited April 15, 2014 by judgeender