Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

[Benets]

Should copy and paste the questions

[Ycoga]

FEEDBACK

 

Skill Tax - In order to maintain any reasonable force management, Sages must spend 5 points in the Telekinetics tree. In addition, while VERY much appreciated, Egress requires an additional 7 points in the Seer tree. Finally, the Balance tree has boosts of mainstat, resistance and periodic damage boosts that are very desirable. All of this contributes to making full trees less than desirable.

Sustained damage for Balance - As discussed in the 2.7 test forums, Balance sages need some boosts in PvE to maintain comparable damage per second to other damage specs. The community encourages the developers to continue to explore ways to improve this without creating a corresponding PvP imbalance as Balance is seen as a very good PvP spec.

They're already looking into these issues - don't ask this question please.

 

Pushback - Also as discussed in the 2.7 test forums, TK suffers greatly from pushback on Mind Crush and Telekinetic Throw. The developers have stated that they are considering removing pushback and the Sage community lends its approval of that idea. The concern about healers is not well founded because the undisputed best PvP healing class Scoundrel/Operatives are not limited to any significant extent by pushback while it is a great concern for Sages and Commandos.

They've already told us they're looking into pushback as well as improving sustained damage for off-heal DPS specs. Don't ask this question.

 

Execute - In the Commando answers, the developers stated:

 

But in addition to sustained damage, a damage spec needs some reasonable burst in both PvE and PvP. Base Sages have no ability that has any appreciable burst. As we move toward the new expansion and level cap, the Sage community suggests that the developers reconsider whether Sages could reasonably be granted an execute talent or ability.

This is subjective - I personally use Project as an 'execute' and it works fine. I'd rather we don't spend a question asking about some new ability, especially when they've spoken before about this being a sustatined damage class - an execute would be burst, non? Don't ask this either, it's just begging for a 'wait and see what's coming up' answer.

 

Please just stick to the 'sage as jedi' bonus question beceause it's the ONLY one the dev's have never responded on and therefore a valuable opportunity.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Ycoga

[AdrianDmitruk]

They're already looking into these issues - don't ask this question please.

 

Where have they said they're looking into reducing our skill taxes? I know they are talking about reducing how much offhealing is considered "utility" for game balance purposes in answers to other classes, and they are taking concrete actions in the direction of reducing/eliminating pushback. But the only yellow comment I've ever found even remotely concerning our excessive skill taxes is admitting that perhaps our crit was overnerfed as a feeble attempt at a face-saving concession to us in the Heal to Full disaster; I have seen no follow up to that of any kind (and no, they never directly admitted that said crit nerf forced us into paying crit-related skill taxes). I suppose that actually applies to alacrity as well (which they have tried to make more important, but continue to leave the scaling of the stat poor).

 

NEVER have I seen a yellow post admitting that sages are forced by game design to take talents up to the second tier in all three trees, which is what the potential skill tax question would be meant to address. Oh, and they're adding another skill tax for PVP come 2.7 (granted in an attempt to break the 0/30/16 hybrid, but still).

Edited April 4, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[Master-Nala]

They're already looking into these issues - don't ask this question please.

 

 

They've already told us they're looking into pushback as well as improving sustained damage for off-heal DPS specs. Don't ask this question.

 

 

This is subjective - I personally use Project as an 'execute' and it works fine. I'd rather we don't spend a question asking about some new ability, especially when they've spoken before about this being a sustatined damage class - an execute would be burst, non? Don't ask this either, it's just begging for a 'wait and see what's coming up' answer.

 

Please just stick to the 'sage as jedi' bonus question beceause it's the ONLY one the dev's have never responded on and therefore a valuable opportunity.

 

Noted. Right now, none of these are 'questions'. Just issues that will go in the back. Many classes have done this. But thank you for speaking up regarding the "Sage as Jedi" question. Trying to tally how people feel about that one.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Master-Nala

[AlrikFassbauer]

As used in SWTOR theorycraft, an 'execute' is a damage ability or talent that either requires or does additional damage to targets below 30% of health.

 

For example, Spinning Strike for Shadows requires the target to be under 30% health, but does almost twice (1.9x IIRC) the damage of Double Strike.

 

Another example is the Dirty Fighting tree (Smugglers) has the 'Cold Blooded' talent that increases damage on damage over time (DoT) effects when a target is below 30% health.

 

Ah, okay, then, I think, I interpreted it correctly. I know the Gunslinger has a similar capability - I think it was called "Trickshot".

[Dyvim]

Ah, okay, then, I think, I interpreted it correctly. I know the Gunslinger has a similar capability - I think it was called "Trickshot".

 

Well, as another example to keep it in the jedi realm, guardians and sentinels both have a version of "Dispatch", which is a short range saber throw (10m, I believe) at the target when the target is <30%.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Dyvim

[johnbgood]

it's called "quickdraw" for slingers. and as master-nala already stated, the "cold blooded" talent is an execute too. Edited April 5, 2014 by johnbgood

[colemanron]

I've been meaning to dig out my calculator and test to see if it's the tooltip that is wrong or the game engine itself, but I haven't done it yet. My guess is that it is the tooltip, but it's hard to say. It would definitely be a substantial DPS jump if it were the engine.

 

I'm pretty sure there have been threads about this, and smarter people than myself got to the conclusion it's the tooltip being wrong, and the ability is working as intended.

[Benets]

This is subjective - I personally use Project as an 'execute'

 

Oh yes i use it only cos' i don't have any of other, but to that end, shouldn't it do more damage specially below 30%?

So a finish that do 4k is as good as a finish that do 8k, don't think so. Sage need a real good hit that always hit more than 5 and up to 8. Otherwise is no burst.

[MusicRider]

Noted. Right now, none of these are 'questions'. Just issues that will go in the back. Many classes have done this. But thank you for speaking up regarding the "Sage as Jedi" question. Trying to tally how people feel about that one.

 

With much fondness... Sage speaks like yoda but does not fight like yoda.... or at least kind of look like he is fighting like him cause getting ataru form mastery I think is out of the question.

[MusicRider]

Quote: Originally Posted by AdrianDmitruk View Post

This is subjective - I personally use Project as an 'execute'

 

Oh yes i use it only cos' i don't have any of other, but to that end, shouldn't it do more damage specially below 30%?

So a finish that do 4k is as good as a finish that do 8k, don't think so. Sage need a real good hit that always hit more than 5 and up to 8. Otherwise is no burst.

 

Everyone does, but in balance is weak and costly. In TK is a bit more stronger when it double procs but still <<<< than normal execute. An execute ability would be nice for balance for two reasons a) increase the dps which they are looking into it, b) finishing off people, a domain balance lacks due to lack of burst.

 

Not giving an execute to dot specs is none-sense.... snipers don't lose their execute when they are lethatlity, the contrary it becomes part of their normal rotation , which is preceeded from another high burst ability (cull).

[AdrianDmitruk]

This is subjective - I personally use Project as an 'execute' and it works fine.

 

Request: Please don't misquote me as I'm not the one who said the above

[MidichIorian]

watiing for another round of DEV quotes such as 'heal to full' and 'you don't know how to play your class' and other idiotic responses

Which is why it's pointless to bother with this. The fact that we're supposed to ask questions instead of just outlining the problems and suggesting solutions just buys them more time. We'll end up in a new round of unsatisfying answers and people saying they'll un-sub.

 

Here's how I would solve the current issues:

*Slight increase of DD core ability output (tele throw and disturbance), to put tele/madness on par with other classes in PvE.

*Rollback on insta WW and stun range combined with moving effusion down to the first tier in the tele tree and have it apply to some heal abilties too. It would solve both the balance and healer force issues and give sages back their crowd control in PvP.

 

Bam, this would take minimal effort for BW since all they had to do would be to tweak existing mechanics. No new abilties or significant class changes.

Edited April 5, 2014 by MidichIorian

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Which is why it's pointless to bother with this. The fact that we're supposed to ask questions instead of just outlining the problems and suggesting solutions just buys them more time. We'll end up in a new round of unsatisfying answers and people saying they'll un-sub.

 

Here's how I would solve the current issues:

*Slight increase of DD core ability output (tele throw and disturbance), to put tele/madness on par with other classes in PvE.

*Rollback on insta WW and stun range combined with moving effusion down to the first tier in the tele tree and have it apply to some heal abilties too. It would solve both the balance and healer force issues and give sages back their crowd control in PvP.

 

Bam, this would take minimal effort for BW since all they had to do would be to tweak existing mechanics. No new abilties or significant class changes.

 

As far as buffs to pure DPS go, in 2.7, TK is in a good place. Would I like to see my AoE damage capabilities returned? Sure, but I do like where the DPS is going albeit a bit mroe boring. Balance could use some love but the devs have already confirmed this and are working with the community (OH MY) to actively resolve that issue. Given those changes, Sage DPS is very competitive but simply lacks incentive because of low survivability.

 

As far as the instant WW goes, you have got to be kidding me. Even the most hardcore of Sages would agree that this ability was absurdly OP in PVP. If you're going to get a mez off the way WW worked, you cannot have it be instant. That's all I have to say about that.

 

Regarding your sentiment about the devs just giving us smart aleck responses, we are in an unprecedented age of SWTOR where the devs are not only listening, but they are actively engaging us in the forums. If you want to be bitter, sure go for it, but come on, they are working with us to bring the improvements needed. If you want to look back at the disaster that was the sorc questions (and even the vanguard questions) they were for one, insulting and for two, just so poorly worded that they didn't get across the needs of the community. Let's make something of this round so we don't bring that same fate upon ourselves again. And yes, I am saying the community brought on the heal to full fiasco that ensued from the sorc questions. Frankly I'm still embarrassed those were the questions asked. Let's make these worthwhile and worthy of dev consideration instead of a snide commentary on the class.

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Previous post aside, I'm enjoying the feedback section Mister Nalla, keep up the good work. I know I'm someone who brought up the execute, but I'll agree to keep it out of the questions. If anything, Adrian's skill tax comments/questions are far more pressing than any execute abilty ever will be. So as far as my vote goes, I'd say ask about doing a bit of fat trimming on the skill trees please.

[AlrikFassbauer]

As a side-note : Here is an not uninteresting discussion : "Sorcerer vs. Marauder" : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=733737

[MidichIorian]

As far as the instant WW goes, you have got to be kidding me. Even the most hardcore of Sages would agree that this ability was absurdly OP in PVP. If you're going to get a mez off the way WW worked, you cannot have it be instant. That's all I have to say about that.

Agents/smugglers have had an aoe mez forever now and I can't remember seeing any big QQ topics about that. It wasnt until BW came out and said that they were going to nerf it that people popped out of the woodworks and went on about how it was OP (classic "I'm going to get all the classes I don't play nerfed"). Should I go on about some of the more or less spammable jugg/guardian abilties? A speced single target mez is however too much? Does not compute.

 

But hey, it's obviously better to cater to all the "we need more DCD"'es" whiners, resulting in that we potentially end up with some passive crap that that narrows the gap between a competently played sage and one that is just coasting along on passive abilties. Using WW is an active choice, something that will distinguish a good player from a bad one. A passive ability is the same for everyone. One shouldnt have to rely on the other team to be completely incompetent for a WW to go off but that's pretty much how it is these days. I can't remember a single time I've been WW'ed since the nerf, I don't think it has ever happened. Why? Because it's so easy to interrupt, KB or LOS during the cast time.

 

The other remedy for the survivability complaints is an active DCD? You don't think that somewhat defeats the purpose of a light armor class? Hence, the only way of making us viable without turning the class into something it wasnt intended to be or mitigating player skill is to give us back crowd control.

 

On another note, are you one of those who visit other class threads in an attempt to keep your own class on top?

Edited April 5, 2014 by MidichIorian

[Chemic_al]

The other remedy for the survivability complaints is an active DCD? You don't think that somewhat defeats the purpose of a light armor class? Hence, the only way of making us viable without turning the class into something it wasnt intended to be or mitigating player skill is to give us back crowd control.

 

Well yes, but seeing as the CC keeps getting taken away and there is no sign of this trend reversing, then where do you go?

All I see is how much easier they keep making it for other classes to stick on sorcs.

[AlrikFassbauer]

With much fondness... Sage speaks like yoda but does not fight like yoda.... or at least kind of look like he is fighting like him cause getting ataru form mastery I think is out of the question.

 

 

LOL - kind of right, though.

 

As far as the instant WW goes, you have got to be kidding me. Even the most hardcore of Sages would agree that this ability was absurdly OP in PVP. If you're going to get a mez off the way WW worked, you cannot have it be instant. That's all I have to say about that.

 

As an completely Newbie to PvP (pre-2.0), I was whining about that a LOT. And hardcore PvP players responded with L2P, basically.

 

All I see is how much easier they keep making it for other classes to stick on sorcs.

 

Well, people will usually say that this is where better players diustinguish from bad players : The better ones are able to get a car running which mainly consists of decades-old material, rust, and bad oil. They just adapt and are able to get out the maximum out of everything.

 

Others are not that well able to adapt and get out the maximum even out of heaps of rust. They [have to] rely on better quality,newer material and less rust to be able to become efficient.

 

I think that's the difference between good and bad players. But somehow the elitists among the good players frown upon the bad players having to rely on better material with more quality. Of course it is an not small achievement to get a heap of rust up & running, but that doesn't mean that playing with a brand new car shouldn't be forbidden at all, only because getting efficient with a brand new car would mean that the achievement of getting a heap of rust to the same level as the brand new car could be consiodered not that important (because4 there are always new cars in production, in out throw-away culture / society).

Edited April 6, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Aerilas]

As far as buffs to pure DPS go, in 2.7, TK is in a good place. Would I like to see my AoE damage capabilities returned? Sure, but I do like where the DPS is going albeit a bit mroe boring. Balance could use some love but the devs have already confirmed this and are working with the community (OH MY) to actively resolve that issue. Given those changes, Sage DPS is very competitive but simply lacks incentive because of low survivability.

 

As far as the instant WW goes, you have got to be kidding me. Even the most hardcore of Sages would agree that this ability was absurdly OP in PVP. If you're going to get a mez off the way WW worked, you cannot have it be instant. That's all I have to say about that.

 

Regarding your sentiment about the devs just giving us smart aleck responses, we are in an unprecedented age of SWTOR where the devs are not only listening, but they are actively engaging us in the forums. If you want to be bitter, sure go for it, but come on, they are working with us to bring the improvements needed. If you want to look back at the disaster that was the sorc questions (and even the vanguard questions) they were for one, insulting and for two, just so poorly worded that they didn't get across the needs of the community. Let's make something of this round so we don't bring that same fate upon ourselves again. And yes, I am saying the community brought on the heal to full fiasco that ensued from the sorc questions. Frankly I'm still embarrassed those were the questions asked. Let's make these worthwhile and worthy of dev consideration instead of a snide commentary on the class.

 

Shhh. Blink twice if a BW employee has a gun pointed at you, he doesn't have to know.

[Chemic_al]

Well, people will usually say that this is where better players diustinguish from bad players : The better ones are able to get a car running which mainly consists of decades-old material, rust, and bad oil. They just adapt and are able to get out the maximum out of everything.

 

Others are not that well able to adapt and get out the maximum even out of heaps of rust. They [have to] rely on better quality,newer material and less rust to be able to become efficient.

 

I think that's the difference between good and bad players. But somehow the elitists among the good players frown upon the bad players having to rely on better material with more quality. Of course it is an not small achievement to get a heap of rust up & running, but that doesn't mean that playing with a brand new car shouldn't be forbidden at all, only because getting efficient with a brand new car would mean that the achievement of getting a heap of rust to the same level as the brand new car could be consiodered not that important (because4 there are always new cars in production, in out throw-away culture / society).

 

your response is rendered entirely moot by the fact that skilled players play other classes too, and there comes a point where that heap of rust becomes uncompetitive even squeezing every drop of performance out of it.

[AlrikFassbauer]

your response is rendered entirely moot by the fact that skilled players play other classes too, and there comes a point where that heap of rust becomes uncompetitive even squeezing every drop of performance out of it.

 

I did not mean the Sage / Sorc class with the "heap of rust" specifically - in part yes, but all in all that was rather one general analogy about the theme "how to achieve things under different circumstances".

 

Some people are able to actually work with heaps of rust. One Grandfather of mine was literally able to build his own lawnmower from a few spare parts and a motor. He had such a iknack of building everything he wanted just from spare parts I still pay the highest respect to him, even although he is dead for more than 20 years now. He was definitively able to get around with heaps of rust !

 

Me, I'm not as good. And I know it. I will never be. I'm just a bad mechanic who is able to repair the family's bicycles. Nothing more. I will never be able to build my own lawnmower - and I know it. My talents are elsewhere.

 

My talents are elsewhere - where csociety doesnm't need them. People frown upon people who are good with words, like I am. People consider this "light work everyone is able to do, evenm the most bad writer is able to do excellent work". Because people consider other talents to be so much better.

 

A heap of rust can be so many things. Yes, I have been working with cars that had severe problems. But I wasn't able to repair them.

Yes, I had been working with bicycxles that had severe problems. Except in one case I did it alone, I was able to woirk with this "heap of rust" - here in an figurative sense. When family members have problems wiuth their bicycles, they don't go to a mechanic. They go to me. Because I'm able to work with these "heaps of rust".

 

But still - a Vettel would be able to squeeze so much more out of a car that's basically a heap of rust than I will ever be able to.

Edited April 6, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Master-Nala]

Which is why it's pointless to bother with this. The fact that we're supposed to ask questions instead of just outlining the problems and suggesting solutions just buys them more time. We'll end up in a new round of unsatisfying answers and people saying they'll un-sub.

 

To be perfectly honest, I've always thought this 'class rep' thing was a big mistake. I said at the time, that they should just respond more often to well reasoned complaints. I think we saw a big example of the "right way" in the 2.7 test for Sages/Sorcerers. But like I said earlier in the post, if we allow apathy to take over then we have no reason to complain anymore.

 

This is just a means to get a comment on long standing issues and for that it's OK. This is why I'm becoming more of a booster for the 'Sage as Jedi' question. I agree I don't expect very detailed answers on the balances issues, so why the heck not do the visual/animation thing that has bothered a lot of people.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Dyvim]

...

 

This is just a means to get a comment on long standing issues and for that it's OK. This is why I'm becoming more of a booster for the 'Sage as Jedi' question. I agree I don't expect very detailed answers on the balances issues, so why the heck not do the visual/animation thing that has bothered a lot of people.

 

Its nice to see you come full circle. I knew, if you thought about it, you would see reason...rofl....

 

Why not make it question #1?

 

Personally, I loved this quote earlier in the thread, it still makes me chuckle...

 

...The third wildcard topic is definitely an interesting one. On a selfish note, I would love to see the devs called on the carpet for the awful monstrosity that is the animations for Project and Telekinetic Throw...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Dyvim

[Master-Nala]

Its nice to see you come full circle. I knew, if you thought about it, you would see reason...rofl....

 

Naw, you're still wrong (), but you deserve to have the question answered to your satisfaction just as much as people concerned about their performance are. To be honest, I fear you're going to get some non-answer on the animation front, but we'll see.

 

The three question we have are not the three issues I have with the class. But they are what has risen to the top among the community and I'm OK with that.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Master-Nala