Thrawn trilogy - meh?

[Machshoot]

There will probably be some spoilers in my post and in some replies, so turn away now if you've never read the series and don't want parts of it ruined.

 

 

I just finished reading the Thrawn trilogy for the first time, and I must say I was a little frustrated by the books. Did anyone else it a little annoying at the fact that Thrawn basically always won, up until the end? I understand that was part of the premise of the series, how smart and fantastic a leader a Grand Admiral is, but it got a bit old. For 95% of the story, Thrawn basically out-smarted and smashed The New Republic and anyone else. The only cases of this not happening(besides the end) is the times when Luke escapes him, or the Smuggler's turn on Ferrier(which is more Karde's intelligence over Ferrier than Thrawn's doing).

 

It was a fantastic series, but I feel like the one-sidedness of the series took away from that epicness.

 

How do you nerds feel?

[AstralFire]

I've long shared this criticism and believe it significantly hurts Zahn's credibility as a writer. I believe he did an excellent job with his supporting cast (particularly Pellaeon) and returning members, but Karrde, Mara Jade and super-especially Thrawn benefit from writer fiat rather than true cleverness more than they needed to. I'm especially critical of Thrawn's pointless art schtick; by analogy, he'd gain a significant edge against, say, Genghis Khan by examining a series of Rembrandt paintings (created well after Khan was alive.)

[ImmortalLowlife]

I think that was kind of the point of the series. Thrawn was a tactical genius. He was "just that good". The book "Outbound flight" gives you a glimpse into his early life and mindset. But yes......Thrawn WAS NEARLY unstoppable. So much so, that thebooks "specter of the past & vision of the future" show us

how just the rumor of his return set the galaxy in a state of chaos

[Vandicus]

I'm especially critical of Thrawn's pointless art schtick; by analogy, he'd gain a significant edge against, say, Genghis Khan by examining a series of Rembrandt paintings (created well after Khan was alive.)

 

The idea behind that is that each "species" of "alien" including humans has common traits that are so ingrained in their society and way of thinking that they themselves don't perceive them.

[TUXs]

I think that was kind of the point of the series. Thrawn was a tactical genius. He was "just that good". The book "Outbound flight" gives you a glimpse into his early life and mindset. But yes......Thrawn WAS NEARLY unstoppable. So much so, that thebooks "specter of the past & vision of the future" show us

how just the rumor of his return set the galaxy in a state of chaos

 

I agree. Thrawn was always 10 steps ahead of anyone else. I think the Thrawn trilogy is by far the greatest of any of the EU and without a doubt, the most "Star Warsy" of any of the books (X-Wing series excluded).

[AstralFire]

The idea behind that is that each "species" of "alien" including humans has common traits that are so ingrained in their society and way of thinking that they themselves don't perceive them.

 

Yes, I'm aware, and the essential idea is interesting, but the practical application isn't much better than a Shonen anime would do with the same concept.

 

I agree. Thrawn was always 10 steps ahead of anyone else. I think the Thrawn trilogy is by far the greatest of any of the EU and without a doubt, the most "Star Warsy" of any of the books (X-Wing series excluded).

 

Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Best Star Wars product ever, IMO; a triumph of conciseness in writing characters from multiple eras and continuities that manages to do great Space Opera pulp with its B Story while its A Story is one of the rare good musings on the Force.

Edited February 12, 2014 by AstralFire

[TUXs]

Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Best Star Wars product ever, IMO; a triumph of conciseness in writing characters from multiple eras and continuities that manages to do great Space Opera pulp with its B Story while its A Story is one of the rare good musings on the Force.

 

Oh...I'll need to look that one up. I appreciate the suggestion!

[Joesixxpack]

Other SW books have been discussed in here, and plenty of irrelevant ****, not sure why this thread inspired some to sit on a carrot.

 

Anyway, OP I suggest reading what ImmortalLowlife mentions for a fuller picture of Thrawn. I thought some of the stuff like his art analysis was a little kitschy but hey he's a freakin' supervillain (or is he ) so found it all made for good reads.

 

I think that was kind of the point of the series. Thrawn was a tactical genius. He was "just that good". The book "Outbound flight" gives you a glimpse into his early life and mindset. But yes......Thrawn WAS NEARLY unstoppable. So much so, that thebooks "specter of the past & vision of the future"

Edited February 12, 2014 by Joesixxpack

[Machshoot]

I was responding to his response to my response to his original post, where he asked us "Nerds" how we felt.

 

Tait Watson just posted a thread, quickly go cry to him before he goes offline!

 

 

 

Reno, how do you feel about Chewie's relationship with the Nohgri?

[AstralFire]

Oh...I'll need to look that one up. I appreciate the suggestion!

 

No problem. In general, I think Matthew Stover really has the rights to "best writer in the SW EU", though Zahn is certainly the most influential. You may also wish to check out Stover's Ep. 3 novelization; if that had been what we'd seen on the screen, it'd have been even better than Empire Strikes Back, I think. It's really an object lesson on the importance of editing; the vast majority of crucial events are shared between book and movie, but pacing, subtle alterations and additions to dialogue, and a few minor additional scenes really transformed the whole thing.

 

That said, he doesn't appeal to everyone, and if you don't like one Stover book, you're not likely to like the others.

Edited February 12, 2014 by AstralFire

[Reno_Tarshil]

You've replied to this thread that you dislike twice now, and properly a third and fourth time very soon lol.

 

Thanks for the free bump bro!

 

This isn't a thread in which you can brown nose EAware, so please move a long, it's not for you.

 

 

 

Anyways, how about that Thrawn guy eh?!

 

Brown nose EAware? What has that got to do with anything? I was merely suggesting you to move your discussion to the right forum. I do not know why you are being so hostile towards my helpful and friendly suggestion?

[Reno_Tarshil]

Tait Watson just posted a thread, quickly go cry to him before he goes offline!

 

 

 

Reno, how do you feel about Chewie's relationship with the Nohgri?

 

I have no idea who the Nohgri are.

[Machshoot]

Other SW books have been discussed in here, and plenty of irrelevant ****, not sure why this thread inspired some to sit on a carrot.

 

Anyway, OP I suggest reading what ImmortalLowlife mentions for a fuller picture of Thrawn. I thought some of the stuff like his art analysis was a little kitschy but hey he's a freakin' supervillain (or is he ) so found it all made for good reads.

 

I just looked the duology up, they look great. I'll be picking those up after I finish reading the TOR novels.

[Joesixxpack]

I just looked the duology up, they look great. I'll be picking those up after I finish reading the TOR novels.

 

Cool, they're like moar SW movies on paper. Outbound Flight might seem a little tedious in comparison but has notable backstory.

 

About the Nohgri/Chewbacca question, I could prattle at length but think they're essentially brothers from other mothers. "Primitive" by choice in a sense putting family, clan, and their martial and tribal cultures ahead of what's driving many others in the galaxy.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Joesixxpack

[ImmortalLowlife]

I just looked the duology up, they look great. I'll be picking those up after I finish reading the TOR novels.

 

I'd also recommend "survivors quest" as a great read also. It basically wraps up everything with Thrawn & outbound flight. It's without a doubt my FAVOURITE BOOK in the EU.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Someone I knew wanted action-packed Star Wars novels and nothing but action-packed Star Wars novels.

He found the Thrawn Trilogy to be extremely boring because of that.

 

He even held the opinion that George Lucas was forcing authors to write soooooooooooooooooo much boring novels (translation : non-action novels, novels based on intrigue, psychology etc. - like the Thrawn Trilogy) so that his (George Lucas') own, original ( of course action-oriented ! ) Star Wars novels could sell so much better !

 

That was his view.

 

 

 

Me, I learned through this that there are quite different tastes regarding literature.

And that everything is basically just a matter of taste.

[Nickious]

Thrawn to me felt like one of those antagonist that you find yourself rooting for. He was startegically brilliant and seemingly one step ahead of everyone else and yet not overly arrogant to where he didn't consider the advice of others and didn't waste talent just because **** happened. I would say his only fatal mistake was the unforeseeable connection between the Noghri and the Vader bloodline Leia possessed.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I find Thrawn to be similar as Dr. Doom, he always has a plan ahead of everything, is very smart and able to do a bunch of things in no time at all. Of course the comparsion is small, because Doom is ridiculous(he has a superiority complex so high that he thought being a god was beneath him) compared to Thrawn but even so you could compare the two in some form or another, in that they have something up their sleeve to pull out and take out the heroes. Edited February 12, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Jandi]

To the OP, I agree. It was simply not believable. Being smart doesn't make you omiscient and that is exactly how he was portrayed. I thought the books sucked.

[LordGarmaZabi]

Someone I knew wanted action-packed Star Wars novels and nothing but action-packed Star Wars novels.

He found the Thrawn Trilogy to be extremely boring because of that.

 

He even held the opinion that George Lucas was forcing authors to write soooooooooooooooooo much boring novels (translation : non-action novels, novels based on intrigue, psychology etc. - like the Thrawn Trilogy) so that his (George Lucas') own, original ( of course action-oriented ! ) Star Wars novels could sell so much better !

 

That was his view.

 

 

 

Me, I learned through this that there are quite different tastes regarding literature.

And that everything is basically just a matter of taste.

 

Was this someone a 13 year old boy ?

[CaulderBenson]

Did anyone else it a little annoying at the fact that Thrawn basically always won, up until the end? How do you nerds feel?

 

I think you need to re-read the books because that's not the case at all.

 

Thrawn loses in the first book, wins in the second, and loses in the third. The Thrawn Trilogy follows the same dramatic structure as the Original SW trilogy.

 

The final battle in the first book was the Battle of Sluis Van, in which Thrawn was attempting to steal a fleet of ships. He's beaten by Lando, Han, and Luke.

 

The first book of the Thrawn Trilogy ends with Thrawn retreating.

 

Thrawn accomplished his goal in the second book and captures most of the Katana Fleet.

 

In the third book, he pushes the heroes to the brink of defeat (good story telling), however Thrawn begins to lose the Battle of Bilbringi, and is killed before he can potentially turn it around.

 

Thrawn dies in the third book because he completely fails to be ten steps ahead. He underestimates his ability to control Joruus C'Baoth, he fails to discern the noghri treachery, he underestimates the New Republic, and would have lost Mount Tantiss even without C'Baoth going nuts because Mara Jade led the heroes there.

 

So no, I don't find it annoying that Thrawn basically always won, up until the end, because that never actually happens. It's a hard fought battle between the heroes and Thrawn throughout the entire Trilogy.

 

It was a very nice game of chess with each side scoring victories and defeats over each other.

 

To the OP, I agree. It was simply not believable. Being smart doesn't make you omiscient and that is exactly how he was portrayed.

 

See above. Thrawn was not portrayed as omniscient. He made way too many mistakes for that, and it costs him his life in the end. He was however, a brilliant tactician, and a genius even among his fellow Chiss. That was the portrayal given.

Edited February 13, 2014 by CaulderBenson

[Spetulhu]

Thrawn was not portrayed as omniscient. He made way too many mistakes for that, and it costs him his life in the end. He was however, a brilliant tactician, and a genius even among his fellow Chiss. That was the portrayal given.

 

Seconded. Thrawn did have contingency plans for many of his operations, but any good planner should have that. And he did let his own brilliance blind him to some of the things going on. He took steps to reassure the crews under his command that he's not Lord Vader killing people at a whim, but at the same time bullied the Noghri when he thought they were having doubts. He should have seen that wouldn't work if he was actually so good at understanding different races - but maybe he only tried to understand major races? And at a few points he totally discards the idea that the heroes could have done something through dumb luck, instead assuming they had a brilliant plan like he too would have had.

 

He thinks he's got everything under better control than he actually does, and he gives his enemies more credit for planning than they actually deserved. He's so brilliant that he outsmarts himself.

[Jandi]

Thrawn was not portrayed as omniscient. He made way too many mistakes for that, and it costs him his life in the end. He was however, a brilliant tactician, and a genius even among his fellow Chiss. That was the portrayal given.

 

Too often he knew how people would react too accurately. In addition, this "10 steps ahead" gimmick is not believable because if you actually take the time to think about any scenario, at step 4 you realize that the possibilites of what step 5 might be become too numerous to actually plan for in advance.

 

Read some actual history about the military geniuses of the real world and you'll realize this. What's worse, is that we are talking about technology far superior to what we have or have had which makes the variables in Thrawns case even more numerous. War is a methematical equation where you deal with unknowable values and when the equation becomes too complex, no amount genius can solve it.

 

But hey, if you just want to suspend all disbelief and just enjoy the books, more power to you. I'm stating why *I* found it ridiculous.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Jandi

[Wolfninjajedi]

Too often he knew how people would react too accurately. In addition, this "10 steps ahead" gimmick is not believable because if you actually take the time to think about any scenario, at step 4 you realize that the possibilites of what step 5 might be become too numerous to actually plan for in advance.

 

Read some actual history about the military geniuses of the real world and you'll realize this. What's worse, is that we are talking about technology far superior to what we have or have had which makes the variables in Thrawns case even more numerous. War is a methematical equation where you deal with unknowable values and when the equation becomes too complex, no amount genius can solve it.

 

But hey, if you just want to suspend all disbelief and just enjoy the books, more power to you. I'm stating why *I* found it ridiculous.

 

In other words, it's fiction...of course it's not believable and it would be ridiculous, yet it still worked for the character. Of course not nearly ridiculous as some DC/Marvel characters, you wanna talk about ridiculous they make anything SW characters do rather tame by comparsion!

Edited February 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[LordSeraphiel]

Too often he knew how people would react too accurately. In addition, this "10 steps ahead" gimmick is not believable because if you actually take the time to think about any scenario, at step 4 you realize that the possibilites of what step 5 might be become too numerous to actually plan for in advance.

 

Read some actual history about the military geniuses of the real world and you'll realize this. What's worse, is that we are talking about technology far superior to what we have or have had which makes the variables in Thrawns case even more numerous. War is a methematical equation where you deal with unknowable values and when the equation becomes too complex, no amount genius can solve it.

 

But hey, if you just want to suspend all disbelief and just enjoy the books, more power to you. I'm stating why *I* found it ridiculous.

 

Technology was more advanced, but Thrawn was fighting the people using those machines. I think of Thrawn as a flawless tactician, who had a deep understanding of technology, and how to utilise it in ways that others cannot comprehend, and the best strategist in the galaxy, but not flawless.

 

Keep in mind, outside of their own geniuses, the commanders of the New Republic were trained. in relatively, the same way, likewise with the Imperial commanders. There always was a "standardized military doctrine". This is why I found the introduction of Garm Bel Iblis as a foil for Thrawn appropriate, he was fighting the war his own way, with his methodology, which produced innovations(a-wing slash) that Thrawn couldnt have anticipated, since Bel Iblis operated outside the NR military doctrine.

 

Yes the 10 steps ahead was a bit of a stretch, but you have to admit, Thrawn completely dominated most NR forces utterly. As a story telling mechanic, it stressed that Thrawn wasnt going to be beaten via "by-the-book" commanders. He was probably 5-6 steps ahead in reality, but that doesnt quite have the same ring to it as 10 =3

 

As for the art thing, well I kind of believe it. There are always over-riding impulses that are ingrained deeply into individuals, fight or flight, the urge to breed(giggity). Individuality is always present, but there is always a unity behind a culture whether it is genetically ingrained or socially trained from birth. Thrawn simply saw those impulses, and manipulated it to his advantage