This game badly needs mods and macros.

[Delekii]

You miss the point of my argument sir, ofcourse they compete but at the end of the day its not who has the best skate or shoes or cloths that wins its the most talented skater.

No, it is a combination of the best skater in the equipment that suits them best. If you have two equally geared skaters, and one has a skateboard missing a wheel, you can be damn sure the other one will win.

 

Same should be true in all competitions, it shouldnt matter if you have a dps meter or not if you have addons or not. you wanna know whos the better dps'r have them dual winners best.

 

if you wanna know whos the best tank, have them both dual the same dps toon, one who lasts longest wins.

So simplistic it hurts. Clearly no understanding of statistics or variable environments.

 

Having addons shouldnt be needed to show whos the best that should just be obvious. which guild finished quickest? they are the best.

 

Which Guild finished the quickest with the least number of people they are the best. i mean its not childs play

You clearly have no idea, and this is a waste of time.

[Bobbeh_Cgly]

Sure, if you actually beat the game. But then again in that case you're solo so you only rely on your own abilities...

 

Unlike the case here where you can be carried by the rest of the group while completely sucking out.

 

what if my entire guild did it without addons? then would they be the best guild?

 

why would i be solo as well why does not using addons immediately make me solo?

[Delekii]

what if my entire guild did it without addons? then would they be the best guild?

 

why would i be solo as well why does not using addons immediately make me solo?

 

Only if you beat the other guilds. Otherwise it just makes your guild masochistic and stupid.

[Bigbazz]

You miss the point of my argument sir, ofcourse they compete but at the end of the day its not who has the best skate or shoes or cloths that wins its the most talented skater.

 

Same should be true in all competitions, it shouldnt matter if you have a dps meter or not if you have addons or not. you wanna know whos the better dps'r have them dual winners best.

 

if you wanna know whos the best tank, have them both dual the same dps toon, one who lasts longest wins.

 

i mean the contests are all the irrelevant.

 

Having addons shouldnt be needed to show whos the best that should just be obvious. which guild finished quickest? they are the best.

 

Which Guild finished the quickest with the least number of people they are the best. i mean its not childs play

 

Dueling and doing high dps are completely different, especially if they are different classes.

 

PvP is about control, PVE is about maximising damage = Its apples and oranges. Using PVP skill as any base of PVE is bad, I've taken the best pvpers on the server to raids and watched them get owned on damage, and die to boss mechanics. The same PvP player on his mage could beat the best pve warrior without taking damage, and beat any single person out of a group of thousands, in a duel, every time.

 

 

Without damage meters you cannot tell who is doing the most damage anyway, unless one player is massively worse than the other, and they are being compared directly.

 

 

Pretty much everything you said is just useless.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Bigbazz

[Skeelol]

what if my entire guild did it without addons? then would they be the best guild?

 

why would i be solo as well why does not using addons immediately make me solo?

 

Sigh, how hard is it to get the point?

 

I was talking about singleplayer games which test your own abilities when playing them on hard vs easy.

 

Then i explained how in an MMO where a group consists of more than 1 player, the rest of the players can carry you through the "hard" difficulty even if you're completely clueless and wouldn't be able to do "easy" on your own. Even if the group completed stuff on "hard" it doesn't make you good just because you were a part of that group if you didn't contribute nowhere close to their level.

 

Really?

Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol

[Ninaran]

I've taken the best pvpers on the server to raids and watched them get owned on damage, and die to boss mechanics.

 

The tBC guild "PvE is hard" would like to have a word with you.

 

Pure PvP players with pure PvP equip (except tanks who went crit immune) went Black Temple and cleared it without a hassle. I'd even say that PvPers are the better PvEers because they tend to have better awareness and reactions. But that's a personal opinion.

[Knyghtprowler]

Damage meters don't make better players either.

Is it really so hard to do that or do you only attempt bosses when you have giant great big alarm bells ringing across the screen telling you to do something.

 

No but in a guild with a large group of people - if the guild requires people to use Boss mods, the officers KNOW people are being alerted to certain actions in the fight. So there is NO reason to screw it up.

 

Have you ever been in a guild that had content on lock down, and is running it daily to farm gear for the guild and a semi-active member joins the raid and has less knowledge of the encounters?

 

Would you allow wipes until he gets up to speed with a bunch of people that are expecting a smooth run? Yes guildies could explain it but lets face it - explaining it ahead of time saying "watch of this... when you see that do this, then if phase two blah blah blah, and pahse three blah blah blah... "

 

1. He won't remember all of that...

2. He will be worrying about the encounter an not DPSing or Healing or Tanking to the best of his ability because he is looking around waiting for something to happen

 

With something like Boss Mods - he can relax and do his job and watch for alerts to let him know "GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!" he can cancel a heal or stop DPS and move immidiately.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Knyghtprowler

[Minnea]

Glad you agree. People who want to play at the top of their game need macros. Thanks for the support.

 

Lol, you slightly quoted me out of context there. I dont NEED macros for my gameplay. Some emotes accessable through macros would be nice.

 

What people dont often realise, is that these choices have their impact on gaming community. What people expect of each other etc. I'd rather have a more laid back community, where every other player doesnt feel having the right to inspect your alt nro x and noob call you because you didnt bother to min/max this one. As someone earlier said, addons give tools to discriminate and I personally dont trust people to be wise enough. Simple macros in that respect are quite innocent, if it doesnt boild down to PvP where the skill should be about your playing and cunning, not the ability find and copy-paste the best macros. People play and learn different ways and BW should support embracing diversity, not divide.

[Skeelol]

Lol, you slightly quoted me out of context there. I dont NEED macros for my gameplay. Some emotes accessable through macros would be nice.

 

What people dont often realise, is that these choices have their impact on gaming community. What people expect of each other etc. I'd rather have a more laid back community, where every other player doesnt feel having the right to inspect your alt nro x and noob call you because you didnt bother to min/max this one. As someone earlier said, addons give tools to discriminate and I personally dont trust people to be wise enough. Simple macros in that respect are quite innocent, if it doesnt boild down to PvP where the skill should be about your playing and cunning, not the ability find and copy-paste the best macros. People play and learn different ways and BW should support embracing diversity, not divide.

 

You don't need addons to discriminate. I can easily inspect you and see you're using the wrong stats, or just inspect and make an average of your armor rating which is exactly what ilvl is.

[Bigbazz]

The tBC guild "PvE is hard" would like to have a word with you.

 

Pure PvP players with pure PvP equip (except tanks who went crit immune) went Black Temple and cleared it without a hassle. I'd even say that PvPers are the better PvEers because they tend to have better awareness and reactions. But that's a personal opinion.

 

PvP equipment in TBC was sought after, because many of the parts were better than the PVE pieces, considering people cleared Black Temple in a mix of Blue, T4, T5 and T6 gear, using PvP gear would have been easy, for druid tanks PVP gear was the best in slot. Black temple was not a hard raid, and not all PvP'ers are bad at PvE, but some are. I'm talking Rank 1 quality players who suck balls at PVE, and the same top of the server quality PVE players, who suck balls at PVP, its apples and oranges, cannot be compared.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Bigbazz

[Bobbeh_Cgly]

No, it is a combination of the best skater in the equipment that suits them best. If you have two equally geared skaters, and one has a skateboard missing a wheel, you can be damn sure the other one will win.

 

So simplistic it hurts. Clearly no understanding of statistics or variable environments.

 

 

You clearly have no idea, and this is a waste of time.

 

kk did you not read the fact that i played spreadsheets online for 7 years, wow and every other mmo in existance has nothing on EvE when it comes to statistics and playstyles.

 

In eve noone cares how you wanna play, you play to win or you lose everything and i mean everything.

 

What im saying is that Addons artificially inflate the players abilities compared to someone that can do the same thing without. Why should life be fair?

 

Pop Quizzes arent fair the kid with the photographic memory will almost always do better.

 

Does that mean other kids should get cheat sheets so they can compete? **** no.

 

What this boils down to is that everyone here believes that there should be a difficulty in Tor that is not possible without addons and aids. Because it should have this it should also have the addons and aids to make this possible, because there MUST be a difference between casual and hardcore not seen the sunlight nerds.

 

Why should there be a difference, it wasnt the hardcore people that wow got the 9million subs from it was mostly casuals scary thought right.

 

Its not the PvPers that rule eve even though we certainly do rule the forums and communities, there are 75% silent casual and hardcore pvers.

 

Just cause you want one thing from ToR doesnt mean its gonna or gotta happen. its just what you want, and dont we all want our dreams to become true?

 

At the end of the day its a harmony between hardcore and casual that builds a good game with a good community. A little elitist behavior and a little accepting and teaching behavior.

 

That means that the devs should and will listen to both sides of the argument and make a compromise whether you or i like it..

 

My guess is very limited macros and local addons only, why i dunno just a guess not like ive been reading alot of twitter all the dev blogs and interviews or anything.... not that i have head the devs say they care very much for the casual gamers and the hardcore ones and don't wish to alientate either.... I dunno maybe im just think a few steps ahead here

[Minnea]

You don't need addons to discriminate. I can easily inspect you and see you're using the wrong stats, or just inspect and make an average of your armor rating which is exactly what ilvl is.

 

I see I didnt communicate clearly enough. Yes, I am fully aware that inspecting doesnt require addons. What I meant, is that giving certain tools counts towards a certain kind of mindset. I know, more about psychology than game mechanics or addons as such.

[Truga]

Trugs i've been playing eve since 03, ive done everything in that game from kbs to sigs to ts servers. The game still holds my soul but i do not have the time for it right now + 0.0 burn out has left me a lil sore lol.

 

And as you know Eve is all about stats numbers and calculations.

 

So i've spent a long time around that shtuff and listened to the worst and best of people abuse it.

 

Yeah, I was in PL for a couple years. I even helped with some tourney theorycrafting (helped us get our 3rd alliance tournament win), but I, too, kinda burnt out shortly after that. Haven't really played the game for over a year now (other than some lowsec ganks here and there), but when I start craving for PVP again, EVE is the way to go. I even still boot EFT up sometimes, to try and make a good setup for that new ship (Tornado I think?).

 

On topic: I agree the UI is currently horrid and I hope we get a better version (with movable and resizable elements).

 

I hope we don't get add-ons though, because if we do, say goodbye to competitive gameplay and say hi to competitive add-on making. And since I love the star wars universe oh so much, I'll probably be one of the people leading on this, making everyone else's life a nightmare. And oh what a glorious nightmare it'll be. Want to play well? Better use my mod I made for this raid when I 0-day'd that new content earlier this morning!

 

Except I won't charge for services in ISK but in euros this time.

[Skeelol]

Yeah, I was in PL for a couple years. I even helped with some tourney theorycrafting (helped us get our 3rd alliance tournament win), but I, too, kinda burnt out shortly after that. Haven't really played the game for over a year now (other than some lowsec ganks here and there), but when I start craving for PVP again, EVE is the way to go. I even still boot EFT up sometimes, to try and make a good setup for that new ship (Tornado I think?).

 

On topic: I agree the UI is currently horrid and I hope we get a better version (with movable and resizable elements).

 

I hope we don't get add-ons though, because if we do, say goodbye to competitive gameplay and say hi to competitive add-on making. And since I love the star wars universe oh so much, I'll probably be one of the people leading on this, making everyone else's life a nightmare. And oh what a glorious nightmare it'll be. Want to play well? Better use my mod I made for this raid when I 0-day'd that new content earlier this morning!

 

Except I won't charge for services in ISK but in euros this time.

 

Competitive gaming without a tool to measure performance.

 

Ok pal.

[Truga]

Competitive gaming without a tool to measure performance.

 

Ok pal.

 

I find winning or losing quite the indicator of performance myself. And I'm not your pal by any means, sir.

[Bigbazz]

I find winning or losing quite the indicator of performance myself. And I'm not your pal by any means, sir.

 

He's not your sir, buddeh.

[Skeelol]

I find winning or losing quite the indicator of performance myself. And I'm not your pal by any means, sir.

 

Oh, then you were referring to pvp.

 

My bad, pal.

[Truga]

Oh, then you were referring to pvp.

 

My bad, pal.

 

Dying in an instance against a boss is a lose too.

[Bobbeh_Cgly]

Competitive gaming without a tool to measure performance.

 

Ok pal.

 

have you played eve? watched the world broadcasted tournaments?

 

you want competition? corps and alliances literally pay hundreds of dollars for spots in these tournaments with are 2 round knockouts. That are broadcasted live off the site then uploaded to you tube.

 

 

there is no competition like eve, where the winner takes all and the loser is well dead.

 

 

noone cares how quick you killed the biggest plex or how much isk you make a minute, or how you fit your ship. unless you get caught and then well bucko if your not competitive you lose everything.

 

 

So truga and i know a lot about very high stakes mmo competitions, and so yes our opinions are valid maybe not the ones you like but valid still.

 

But obviously you don't like our opinion or just cant see past your own so there is really no point in arguing with you.

 

 

I gave my predictions and im very sure that they will be spot on if not very close to what is released.

[Skeelol]

Dying in an instance against a boss is a lose too.

 

You mentioned competitive gameplay.

 

In pvp if you go 1v1 bar the class balance issues you either win or lose.

 

In pve if you raid with 15 other people you're not competitive at all without a tool to judge everyone's performance compared to yours.

 

Or maybe you think "raid" vs "boss". "raid" beats "boss". "raid" was competitive with "boss".

[Skeelol]

You mentioned competitive gameplay.

 

In pvp if you go 1v1 bar the class balance issues you either win or lose.

 

In pve if you raid with 15 other people you're not competitive at all without a tool to judge everyone's performance compared to yours.

 

Or maybe you think "raid" vs "boss". "raid" beats "boss". "raid" was competitive with "boss".

 

@bobbeh this ain't eve. The only competition you can have here is pvp or pve vs other players who are filling the same role as you.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol

[OldBehn]

Customization allows people with disabilities to do the same as everyone else. Whinging that addons shouldn't be added in is the same as saying you wouldn't customize a car for a disabled person.

 

I bid you good day.

[Bigbazz]

When it gets competitive is when they make the boss so hard that you have to maximise to perfection, where you are competing against your fellow players to earn your position in a raid, a raid where due to the requirements of the content it only makes sense to take the highest damage players.

 

 

That is when damage meters get competitive, and in WoW that started (mostly) with the Sunwell, and has been the main factor in the difficulty of the encounters in WoW.

 

If you cannot prove you are good enough, and the content is balanced so that only perfection can beat it, without a combat log parser (damage meter) you have no way of knowing who is the weak point in your group.

 

 

That is competitive PVE. and when its just farming, you're doing speed kills damage/healing record attempts. Which is still competitive PVE.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Bigbazz

[AlpsStranger]

My guess is very limited macros and local addons only, why i dunno just a guess not like ive been reading alot of twitter all the dev blogs and interviews or anything.... not that i have head the devs say they care very much for the casual gamers and the hardcore ones and don't wish to alientate either.... I dunno maybe im just think a few steps ahead here

 

Explain how a 'local addon' works or even what one is. How does one structure the scripting language the mods use to be 'local' or 'global'?

 

This makes no sense. Certain information will be available for collation and certain information won't. The 'local' distinction is bizarre and nonsensical.

[Boffski]

Not read the whole thread but one point seems to have been misssed about addons and that

game devs have only some much time etc to devote to different aspects of their games and often fail to address alot of the annoyances that one bright spark thinks hmm i can do this better

 

makes an addon and tada! problem gone without a 3 year wait.

 

multiply by 2-300k people doing it and that is alot of creativity and development time being added into the playability of the game.

 

it makes for an amazing test bed that devs can look at to see what is popular and often add them into the basic UI. Brings the community and game devs closer together and the game becomes something that they grow together.

Its a good thing...

 

the addons can be limited as well dont forget..rem when wow first started there was 'autotravel' so it would take your toon automatically anywhere in the world you set a waypoint. Obviously things like that were wrong and led to too much automation and thus were removed.

But ones that let you changed gear so can swap into social stuff at a button push?

 

or anyone rem the 'bennyhill' mod for razorgore ? we wiped so many times from laughing at that one.

heal assign mods for raiding so could plan the orders while on trash and send out healing orders at a button push as soon as got to the boss instead of taking 10 minutes to set up.

etc etc...

it made the tedious aspects of raiding and guild management much less so.

 

many many useful customise mods/addons that for me made the game playable and peoples UI'S their own....

 

sure this isnt wow (thankfully-after runined with all the instant gratification stuff)

but as long as its done carefully it adds so much to an mmo.

 

same for macros rly..

 

stop the extremes guys and gals.. and try for a happy medium eh....

Edited December 23, 2011 by Boffski