How are Flashfires/Stings not Overwhelmingly OP?

[Sideblaze]

Think of the Flashfire as the scout from TF2.

 

It's the fastest, and most manueverable, and can lay down some pain when it gets close enough and has full ammo ready. But if you manage to get like, two seconds of sustained fire on it, it's going to be dead or dying.

[Phantasym]

To add why I really think it's unbalanced: combined with maxed out evasion and the distortion field ability I can make attack runs on turrets and be essentially immune to any damage from them. That leaves me in relatively good position to take on defending fighters because I still have significant shield strength. By contrast in my striker my shields will take a beating and possibly leave me very vulnerable to defending fighters. To me it seems inbalanced when a single stat allows the ship with the weakest armor to be more effective making attack runs on defensive hard points than more heavily armored starfighters.

 

Not sure what build you are using on your star fighter, but I make attack runs on turrets on mine without issue all the time. I have quick charge shields all 3 unlocks this means I get 60% shield regen even when being hit or about 100 shield per second. If I put power to shields that seems even better, I easily make it out of an attack run with a full green bar of shields and the 2nd level shield regenerating quickly back to full. It is only a problem if I have someone dead on my tail while making an attack run or a gunship hiding in the turret firing rail gun out while your shots only hit the turret.

 

The other option is directional shields, double front and it is even more survivable, of course if you get hit in the back you have an issue.

 

Lastly strike fighters can open up on the turret from longer range, lockon with missile from 10km or 7km some of the gun choices have 7km range, The scout has to wait until 3-4km to open up and takes damage while doing it, if they are not using focus to weapons, and rockets, or blaster over charge cooldown it takes multiple attack runs or way more then then 3 seconds of invulnerability to take out the turret. With the focus to weapons the scout, either one has paper thin shields if anyone gets on my tail I am dead as soon as those 3 seconds are up. If I spec for 6 seconds it might be better but then don't have the missile evad it gives. I believe turrets start firing at you around 7-10km so a scout takes shots just like a strike fighter. The 6 second bonus might let you take out a single turret with 0 damge to shield, otherwise I usually have some shield damage. When I use my blackbolt with the armor piercing rockets I am better off but my shield still gets hurt on anything but the first turret.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Not sure what build you are using on your star fighter, but I make attack runs on turrets on mine without issue all the time. I have quick charge shields all 3 unlocks this means I get 60% shield regen even when being hit or about 100 shield per second. If I put power to shields that seems even better, I easily make it out of an attack run with a full green bar of shields and the 2nd level shield regenerating quickly back to full. It is only a problem if I have someone dead on my tail while making an attack run or a gunship hiding in the turret firing rail gun out while your shots only hit the turret.

 

The other option is directional shields, double front and it is even more survivable, of course if you get hit in the back you have an issue.

 

I run with directional shields. And yes I can make it through decently.

 

Scouts can use evasion + abilities to take no damage to shields (or almost no damage). Given the choice between taking some damage to shields or no damage it seems the scout has an advantage in being able to respond to defending fighters with it's defenses more intact than a strike fighter that just completed it's attack run. Now I'm not saying that scouts shouldn't have the firepower to destroy turrets, just that an attack run against turrets without strike fighter support to draw turret fire should be suicide.

 

My point then is that evasion + evasion boosting abilities gives them comparable multirole utility to strike fighters while maintaining an edge as a dogfighter. It seems unbalanced that a stat grants scouts the ability to perform a role that should be suicide without the heavy armor/shields of a strike fighter. What's the role of a strike fighter if they are neither the dominant dogfighter nor the dominant multirole fighter? (I've heard scouts claim that dogfighting and turret destruction is the purpose of the scout which leaves me wondering what purpose strikers have since that pretty much defines the niche that multirole starfighters are supposed to fill).

[Bleeters]

I'm curious what weapons people are using that turrets represent such a hazardous obstacle for a strike fighter. Heavy lasers with armour ignore rip right through them with pinpoint accuracy from 6000m away.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I'm curious what weapons people are using that turrets represent such a hazardous obstacle for a strike fighter. Heavy lasers with armour ignore rip right through them with pinpoint accuracy from 6000m away.

 

I run with quads and ions. I might switch the ions for heavy lasers later though for that armor piercing. It's not that turrets are extremely hazardous to strikers making attack runs, it's that scouts can use evasion to make attack runs on turrets with equal effectiveness when an attack run without another ship drawing fire should invariably end in death for the scout due to their weak defenses.

 

Currently unassisted attack runs on turrets don't end in a scout's death and I've heard scouts claim that their job is making attack runs on turrets and destroying enemy starfighters. So again if the purpose of a scout is to destroy enemy fighters AND destroy enemy defensive hardpoints/turrets (essentially defining the purpose/niche of a multirole starfighter) then what is the purpose of strikers if the mutlirole niche is already filled by scouts?

Edited December 17, 2013 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Kurkina]

OP: if you are getting killed by your pet peeve in your flavour of the month ship, you should probably learn to avoid the Flashfire/Sting in situations that favour its strengths and not yours. It's called situational awareness and tactics.

[Phantasym]

Currently unassisted attack runs on turrets don't end in a scout's death and I've heard scouts claim that their job is making attack runs on turrets and destroying enemy starfighters. So again if the purpose of a scout is to destroy enemy fighters AND destroy enemy defensive hardpoints/turrets (essentially defining the purpose/niche of a multirole starfighter) then what is the purpose of strikers if the mutlirole niche is already filled by scouts?

 

I would say the strike fighter is the jack of all trades, fast enough to get to objectives unlike a gunship, firepower to take down turrets, gunships, scouts or other strike fighters. Shields and hull enough to survive almost anything. I was up against a good strike fighter pilot the other day in my sting and he consistently got the better end of that engagement. Strike fighters are also the most Tankable of any of the classes I would say surviving through a lot. They are by far the most versatile being able to spec for several different roles depending on which missiles and laser they pick and the only medium range ship there is.

[Helig]

And lol they are not a upgrade of Novadrives, you lose maneuverability and raw engine speed and power.

Same base stats. If you want to, you can achieve the same speed, maneuverability and engine pool on a Flashfire. You can't get Dampening, though.

personally I think that light armor (which currently boosts evasion) should boost speed (both cruise speed and boost), and/or boost agility. Not sure what to do with companion buffs/abilities but I'm sure something could be worked out to replace their evasion buffs.

Won't solve anything without drastic increase in cruise speed for all craft. Unless it's double of what it is now, you can't really evade blaster cannon fire on cruise speed at a distance greater than short.

IMO all these adjustments would help give scouts either 1) enhanced ability to take evasive action on their own or 2) make it harder for an enemy to hit them by emphasizing pilot skill. In both cases the ability would focus on pilot skill not stats in determining the success or failure.

I do agree that Scouts should get mechanics to be more elusive - including stealth, or, at least, temporary sensor invisibility. While I don't think that Distortion/evasion is really OP, it really isn't the brightest idea that BW came up with.

To add why I really think it's unbalanced: combined with maxed out evasion and the distortion field ability I can make attack runs on turrets and be essentially immune to any damage from them. That leaves me in relatively good position to take on defending fighters because I still have significant shield strength. By contrast in my striker my shields will take a beating and possibly leave me very vulnerable to defending fighters

.

Strikers and Gunships can destroy satellite defenses from a safe distance. To attack you, defenders would have to move to intercept.

I concede that flashfires are probably designed/intended to be the best at close range dogfighting but when evasion also allows them to function as effectively (or more effectively) as strike fighters in attacking defensive hardpoints it leaves me wondering what role strike fighters are left with when flashfires are superior dogfighters and multirole fighters.

Different roles. But I do agree that Strikers need some buffs. Chaff flares against missiles, some sort of special "rigid shields" that block shield bypass mechanics, access to other special defenses, like sensor decoys which would screw over lead target indicators, etc, etc.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Helig

[Vember]

I think people are putting way too much emphasis on the role evasion plays. Generally, if my reticle is over theirs when I'm firing, I'm seeing damage numbers.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I would say the strike fighter is the jack of all trades, fast enough to get to objectives unlike a gunship, firepower to take down turrets, gunships, scouts or other strike fighters. Shields and hull enough to survive almost anything. I was up against a good strike fighter pilot the other day in my sting and he consistently got the better end of that engagement. Strike fighters are also the most Tankable of any of the classes I would say surviving through a lot. They are by far the most versatile being able to spec for several different roles depending on which missiles and laser they pick and the only medium range ship there is.

 

on paper I agree that being a multirole ship is the intent of the striker. If we accept what mutlirole fighters normally mean with today's fighters means that their primary role is dogfighting with additional functionality in ground attack (or in this case attack on turrets). But in practice scouts are equally capable of performing the ground attack role while maintaining a slight edge against the striker in dogfighting abilities.

 

 

Which is my point: I agree strikers are designed to be multirole ships but in practice the evasion stat gives scouts near equal proficiency in attacking targets like turrets without support. If scouts are designed as dogfighters/space supremacy as many claim then that means they should have traded their ability to attack targets like turrets unassisted and that scouts that try should invariably die (and from my experience the ONLY reason that currently isn't the case is because the evasion stat artificially allows them to survive such attack runs).

 

That's where I see the inbalance: strikers are designed as the multirole starfighters of the game and in practice they fill that role just fine. The inbalance is that evasion gives scouts the ability to function as multirole starfighters while maintaining their (supposed) intended role of space supremacy.

 

It's the equivalent of strikers having the ability to kill targets at 15k meters, yes gunships can still perform their role as snipers but there'd be a clear inbalance if another ship class was able to rival a gunship in that performance while maintaining it's intended design as multirole ship.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Won't solve anything without drastic increase in cruise speed for all craft. Unless it's double of what it is now, you can't really evade blaster cannon fire on cruise speed at a distance greater than short.

 

fair enough and these were just suggestions. It was my assumption that the primary way scouts (or any starfighter really) avoids blaster fire is with agility/evasive action until they have an opportunity to use speed to get out of range entirely. Hence my suggestion was meant to help increase the speed with which scouts can get out of blaster range as I assumed that gaining the agility to actually dodge blaster fire by taking evasive action would be left to existing components that boost agility.

 

I do agree that Scouts should get mechanics to be more elusive - including stealth, or, at least, temporary sensor invisibility. While I don't think that Distortion/evasion is really OP, it really isn't the brightest idea that BW came up with.

 

I wouldn't use OP but I do think it's inbalanced because of the versatility it gives scouts to perform roles (such as turret attacks) outside of what they should be capable of unassisted. Again offensively I don't have a problem with them taking out turrets provided they had a striker drawing fire, it's when they have defensive stats that artificially allow them to do this unassisted where I think there's an inbalance (turret attacks by scouts should require coordination with strikers to perform something like an A-Wing Slash).

 

In my experience the only reason scouts are equally proficient at taking out turrets unassisted is because evasion + evasion boosting abilities artificially give them the ability to do so when without such benefits turrets would rip them apart. Hence why I think it's unbalanced, it would be like strikers having an ability that boosts their blaster range to 15k meters. Their stats clearly show they're not intended to attack targets at that range but this ability would allow them to perform a role they were clearly not intended to be capable of. Would it be OP? probably not as quads couldn't 1 shot anyone but it sure as heck wouldn't be balanced. Same case with what evasion allows scouts to do.

 

Strikers and Gunships can destroy satellite defenses from a safe distance. To attack you, defenders would have to move to intercept.

 

True but I'm not sure that strikers can destroy them faster than a scout can. Which again is the problem if the supposed space supremacy fighter can effectively attack all the same targets the multirole starfighter can with comparable effectiveness. Heck I've heard scout pilots claim that it's their job to take out turrets with the implication that it isn't the role of the multirole strikers to attack turrets.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Resipsal]

I fly a strike fighter and do pretty good overall. For the scouts I try not to dogfight them, they are faster and up close I am not going to get a lock or see a lot of blaster shots hit. I keep my distance and go after them when they are pursuing others. When they are coming for me I try to bait them into a head on attack, all I need is the few seconds for a lock. Using the shield boost and hydro spanner I can absorb their damage, burn their shields with blasters and when I get the lock they are done. Quad lasers and a concussion missile is more than enough fire power.

 

Head-to-head jousts is exactly where you'd expect the strike fighter to win, and exactly where the Sting/Flashfire dominates them the most. If you come at my Sting head on, I'll pop Distortion Field, Blaster Overcharge, and my copilot ability. Distortion Field grants me 6 seconds of immunity to blaster fire and railguns, and that alone is enough to guarantee victory is such a scenario.

 

If a striker is going to kill a Flashfire, he'd best do it from the rear or the side, because you surely won't if you're in front of those overcharged guns.

 

The strike fighters best asset when fighting a scout is the beating it can take along with just a slight edge in firepower.

 

That's true with regard to the base scout, but not the Sting/Flashfire. The Sting has most of the armament of the strikers, plus the extremely powerful Blaster Overcharge ability, allowing it to easily surpass the strikers in damage potential.

[Phantasym]

I think you will find scouts are not more powerfull in taking out turrets then strikers, it is extremely loadout bassed.

 

If my scout has armor piercing rockets it is very effective at taking them out. If it has armor piercing on its burst laser again very effective.

 

If it has cluster missiles and a light laser not that effective.

 

Defensive wise if you have your distortion field on a scout set to 6 seconds rather then a 2nd missile lock avoidance you will be much more effective at taking out turrets or head on fights but possible less so in a furball where you are getting constantly locked up.

 

Strikers can spec into extra shield and extra hull, they can focus to shields and still take out turrets and have shields only scratched using either the quick recharge tier 3 ability or the directional shields. Remember the thing you are comparing it to with distortion field is also a tier 3 ability that turns it from 3 seconds to 6.

 

Strikes can also spec into armor piercing lasers that will greatly help taking out those turrets even longer range ones that keep you our of the turret firing range and completely out of harms way, proton torpedos are another options. They go about it differently.

 

Scouts use distortion field evasion, strikers use crazy shield regen or direction shields and range to keep themselves safe.

 

Anytime a scout and a striker are in a head on battle the striker should have the advantage if the scout doesn't have his cooldown up. The things you are talking about making scouts powerful are cooldowns, the blaster overcharge, the distortion field. or even a bypass companion ability, strikers get cooldowns too like the ability to go back to full shields a second after having almost none, as soon as a pass is done, ability to increase range where they have advantage using kolgran turn or retro thrusters, or just barrel roll past the scout and turn around, now his distortion field is spent, probably blaster overcharge and guess who wins the next joust.

[Luckyluzi]

 

Anytime a scout and a striker are in a head on battle the striker should have the advantage if the scout doesn't have his cooldown up. The things you are talking about making scouts powerful are cooldowns, the blaster overcharge, the distortion field. or even a bypass companion ability, strikers get cooldowns too like the ability to go back to full shields a second after having almost none, as soon as a pass is done, ability to increase range where they have advantage using kolgran turn or retro thrusters, or just barrel roll past the scout and turn around, now his distortion field is spent, probably blaster overcharge and guess who wins the next joust.

 

problem is disortion field only has 20 sec cooldown , he can easily kite you until it is ready again, resulting in a stalemate if you use barrel roll every time

[Svarthrafn]

problem is disortion field only has 20 sec cooldown , he can easily kite you until it is ready again, resulting in a stalemate if you use barrel roll every time

 

Then you're an idiot for playing to his strength instead of yours.

[Phantasym]

I find I defend objectives better as a strike fighter then a Sting scout, but if I want pure dog fighting I go for the sting, of course my sting is more upgraded them my strike fighter so that may be why I am better dog fighting in it. For attacking a note I use my blackbolt scout with the rockets that are armor piercing and the extra boost to make it to any objective quickly if everyone is fighting at the far side of the map and we only own one objective. I can usually take out all 3 turrets this way, but if there is a strike fighter or another scout of any kind there it is almost always my death before I can fully secure it because they can take advantage of me while I kill the turrets. By the third turret I usually have almost no shields or a bit of hull damage because my distortion field only last for one of them. If I back away for 20 seconds so it can recharge then people have a chance to come defend.

 

When my strike fighter is almost fully upgraded I will see how that is in dogfighting. For gunship hunting I still prefer one of the two scouts but can do it fine in either one. My strike fighter is by far much more survivable then either scout though and the only thing they have mastered is their quick charge shield.

[Telos]

Why??? The hell??? Are strike fighter pilots complaining about taking turret damage??????????

 

Strike fighters can destroy a turret with an absolute zero risk of taking damage from said turret. If you find yourself, at any time, taking damage from a turret you are trying to kill, the fault is not with any game mechanic.

[TheJacobin]

Why??? The hell??? Are strike fighter pilots complaining about taking turret damage??????????

 

Strike fighters can destroy a turret with an absolute zero risk of taking damage from said turret. If you find yourself, at any time, taking damage from a turret you are trying to kill, the fault is not with any game mechanic.

 

Now, I'm only a middling pilot, but I often have severe shield damage after killing a turret with my strike. If I fly fast enough to avoid a defender hitting me hard, my blasters aren't enough to kill the turret in one pass. If I fly straight and slow enough to kill the turret in one pass with my blasters, I'm a juicy gunship target.

[DarthVindictus]

Strike Fighters are able to operate much better at medium/long range than Flashfires/Stings (while still carrying a short range weapon if they want to). I don't think making Strike Fighters better at short range AND medium/long range would be balanced overall. It just so happens that being better at longer range doesn't matter much if you have to hug a satellite.

 

They tend to carry the exact same arsenals. Cluster missiles and quad lasers. Not to mention, when we're talking a range difference of 2000m, it's nothing, that's about 1s difference of boost.

[Zoom_VI]

They tend to carry the exact same arsenals. Cluster missiles and quad lasers. Not to mention, when we're talking a range difference of 2000m, it's nothing, that's about 1s difference of boost.

well a 2km difference is almost doubling the sweet spot once you consider the sweet spot for scouts is 3km. Also 2km is only 1s difference if the target is immobile, against any moving target 2km becomes a much bigger difference.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[DarthVindictus]

Think of the Flashfire as the scout from TF2.

 

It's the fastest, and most manueverable, and can lay down some pain when it gets close enough and has full ammo ready. But if you manage to get like, two seconds of sustained fire on it, it's going to be dead or dying.

 

The Novafire/Blackbolt, sure. But the Flashfire/Sting is like a scout carrying a Demoman's loadout.

[DarthVindictus]

well a 2km difference is almost doubling the sweet spot once you consider the sweet spot for scouts is 3km. Also 2km is only 1s difference if the target is immobile, against any moving target 2km becomes a much bigger difference.

 

Actually I usually have an easier time locking on and hitting targets at about 4000-5000m. This is for both scouts and strike fighters. Too close and a sudden change in movement takes them out of your arc too quickly, not to mention problems with the mechanics of the game handling really close engagements. Under 1000m distance hitting targets is dubious at best.

 

If I'm using concussion missiles, sure, a strike fighter can hit at 6-7k. But not their blasters. You're limited to missiles at that range. Better to get under 5k range to hit with blasters anyway. The heavy blaster cannons fire too slow to be really effective against anything but a stationary turret or comatose pilot who's probably trying to communicate to their team by typing.

 

So the effective range arguement is essentially a moot point.

 

If strike fighters had a faster firing blaster cannon that had a 7k range, maybe you might have a point. But they don't.

[Bleeters]

True but I'm not sure that strikers can destroy them faster than a scout can.

Let me clarify that for you, then: yes. Much, much faster and from a reliably further distance given certain primary/secondary weapon choices, which strike fighters have greater versatility in by extension of the fact they can carry either two of one or two of the other depending on which fighter they're flying.

 

Turrets don't have much health, they just have high armour. I believe 75% reduction is the figure I've seen mentioned on these boards. The only weapon a scout has that goes through that to any extent are burst lasers, which are fairly inaccurate at anything other than point blank range and aren't particularly suited for flying headfirst at something guns blazing.

 

Not that I'm sure why turrets are this important. They're a cannon fodder stalling method to give one team time to actually head over to a satelite that's under attack and little else.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Bleeters

[Telos]

Now, I'm only a middling pilot, but I often have severe shield damage after killing a turret with my strike. If I fly fast enough to avoid a defender hitting me hard, my blasters aren't enough to kill the turret in one pass. If I fly straight and slow enough to kill the turret in one pass with my blasters, I'm a juicy gunship target.

 

Get within 10 km of turret. Proton torpedo. Repeat.

 

Seemed to me the biggest strike fighter pilot complaint is that they can't play them like a scout and still be effective. It isn't the scout's fault that the 2 current maps promote circling the satellites or sniping then running back to base turret cover when you get attacked. The problems you say are inherent to scouts and gunships are really just that those 2 ships are better for the type of cap and hold pvp we have.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Telos

[Svarthrafn]

Yup, don't try to play your strike like a scout.

 

Also, the RoF on the strike's heavy armament is fine. If you are using your range to line up good shots, they hit fine and hard.