All i hear is "don't nerf me bro": a gunship's thread

[Nempo]

If you are a scout, going for damage reduction...you are a total fool for thinking that matters.

The scout's exact opposite is the gunship, which has 100% ignore damage reduction on all of it's rail gun options.

 

I actually use the ion rail gun quite often, hit a ship once with that and you strip away 40% of their boost, swap to slug gun then finish them off.

I occasionally use the proton rail gun on strike fighters or turrets. A single full charge proton rail shot will usually kill a turret or severely damage it so someone can come by and sneeze at it to kill it (it's a dot after all, use it like one). This is also a great gun to use to get a LOT of assists.

 

If anything, if people playing scouts want to truly prove they are the gods of dogfighting they say they are, their hull should be cut in half so they are true scouts incapable of long term fighting. a scout is characterized by hit and run fighting...ANY long term engagement should be death for a scout and yes they should be balanced around that (and I say this as someone who loves to use the Sting advanced scout). In my mind a scout should die from a single blaster hit to it's hull, aka the moment your shields are gone you die.

 

Gunships should be the inverse, incapable of having any real shields and totally reliant upon their hull for defense, in this way a gunship cannot simply take a few hits and escape to the nearest help to stay alive as event he best gunship pilots will simply get worn down as their hulls can't keep being repaired endlessly (yes I know their is a repair crew skill but it is on a long cool down and if you leave ANY gunship alone for that long they deserve to kill you endlessly). In this way shields are used for nothing but to absorb the first hits of an opening salvo.

 

If you want good shields AND a decent hull you should be forced to fly a strike fighter as that is what they are for...taking punishment and dealing death in true ww2 dogfighter fashion (which is what Star Wars space fighting is based upon btw). To be labeled a true dogfighter able to actually shrug off hits in any meaningful way you should be forced to fly these particular ships.

 

Lets recap for the tldr crowd...

Scouts - cut hull health in half, make them unable to improve their hulls at all, keep current shield ratings as is...forcing scouts to act as scouts...play hit and run or die horribly.

Gunships - cut shield strength by half, increase hull strength by a 4th, remove shield upgrades, increase hull upgrades...farther reduce total base engine pool of the gunship.

Strike fighters - leave as is.

 

This creates actual balance as scouts typically have to run from a strike fighter and get distance, while treating gunships as prey. Gunships can continue to do what they always do...snipe and move trading kills for deaths. Strikes continue to do what they always do, taking the brunt of the punishment while adding what damage they can.

[Vember]

A smart scout turned back towards the objective half way to the spawn point and is already chasing another gunship.

 

 

Situational awareness. A good gunship pilot will blow that scout out of the air (space?) the second he turns around.

 

Couldn't this be applied to a scout chasing any type of ship?

 

Yes, but the only ship that presents any real threat at range is the gunship.

[Whitelightr]

LOL

 

Come to Beregren, and point out to me these 'skilled' scout pilots. Top damage, top kills, and faceroll ease. I play pub, and I am embarrassed when I see half my team as scouts. Havent lost a game in 2 days, haven't had a scout with over 100 points in objectives in a week.

 

I'll take that bet.

[Brewski]

Situational awareness. A good gunship pilot will blow that scout out of the air (space?) the second he turns around.

By the time he turns around, I'm already out of range.

 

Not that they ever turn around. I keep them scoped until they are out of sensor range just to be sure, but they never turn around. When you are boosting full tilt trying to get to the line before dying, you won't notice the number suddenly reverses and starts going up for a second, maybe two, and by then it's too late.

 

Either that, or everyone is so used to the tactic working they don't feel the need to be careful. Either way, it works for me.

[Zoom_VI]

By the time he turns around, I'm already out of range.

 

Not that they ever turn around. I keep them scoped until they are out of sensor range just to be sure, but they never turn around. When you are boosting full tilt trying to get to the line before dying, you won't notice the number suddenly reverses and starts going up for a second, maybe two, and by then it's too late.

 

Either that, or everyone is so used to the tactic working they don't feel the need to be careful. Either way, it works for me.

 

If the gunships is running on a straight course they can just hold down C to see exactly what you are doing.

 

Besides they *will* come back and I have *never* had a gunship that I chased off but didn't kill *not* come back and try to kill me. I guess they can't resist trying to one-up the guy that almost got them.

[Sangrar]

If the gunships is running on a straight course they can just hold down C to see exactly what you are doing.

 

Besides they *will* come back and I have *never* had a gunship that I chased off but didn't kill *not* come back and try to kill me. I guess they can't resist trying to one-up the guy that almost got them.

 

Its not just gunships though pretty much everyone does that, even in the ground game, they try to get before they get got, you dig?

 

Seriously though its not only gunships who try to get revenge like that I mean really, that pretty much applies to any kind of pvp in general.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

If anything, if people playing scouts want to truly prove they are the gods of dogfighting they say they are, their hull should be cut in half so they are true scouts incapable of long term fighting. a scout is characterized by hit and run fighting...ANY long term engagement should be death for a scout and yes they should be balanced around that (and I say this as someone who loves to use the Sting advanced scout). In my mind a scout should die from a single blaster hit to it's hull, aka the moment your shields are gone you die.

 

Their hulls and shield strength is fine. The problem is the evasion stat which can be increased to apply a straight 41% penalty to accuracy to enemy blasters before any tracking penalties are calculated. In an identical situation firing on a striker (with low evasion) and a scout with maxed passive evasion you'll have to fire more shots at the scout to do the same damage because their high evasion makes it far more probable that your shots will miss. When you only consider their hull + shield strength it looks like they can only take so many shots but if you were to factor in the amount of damage they avoid because of misses caused by the evasion stat the amount of damage increases (no I haven't done any number crunching but in game experience both as a striker and scout pilot would indicate that this is the case).

 

Now I also understand that evasion may be there to compensate for poor hitbox design so if that's the case keeping a ship's base evasion stat seems fine. What needs to be done is remove the components, abilities, and companion buffs that increase evasion further. Do that and you'll effectively decrease the amount of damage scouts can take by making survival purely dependent on an pilot's ability to manually take evasive action and not have pilot skill replaced (or in the case of good pilots supplemented) by the evasion stat.

 

And yes I know other ships can equip components/companions that buff evasion. While I don't believe thatevasion belongs in the game, on any ship the reason it doesn't appear as problematic on other ships is for several reasons 1) gunships are largely stationary and/or easy to outmaneuver so any tracking penalty will be minimal making the evasion accuracy penalty less severe 2) the base scout, while equally problematic with the evasion accuracy penalty, isn't as big a pain because they don't have firepower rivaling the striker class; when you get to the 2nd scout ship the evasion stat effectively nullifies most/all of the paper thin armor weakness that is supposed to counterbalance their firepower. This doesn't make evasion balanced, it doesn't belong period, but the reason it doesn't belong is most noticeable in the case of the second scout type.

[willfarlow]

Honestly, if you really want to counter Gunships (not that that is always the best tactic, although I do enjoy hunting them myself), all you have to do is make them re-locate often. You don't even need to kill 'em, just don't let 'em sit and snipe. A fly-by attack almost always, in my experience, makes a Gunship go zipping away like a scared rabbit (a fat, slow rabbit, I might add)

That statement is, of course, posited on the idea that the Gunship isn't LOOKING STRAIGHT AT YOU THE WHOLE TIME YOU'RE APPROACHING. Fly at them in a straight line without checking the little model of them in the upper right to see which way they are facing relative to you, and yes, you are dead. Because you essentially just flew down the Gunship's railgun's BARREL. Which isn't the Gunship's fault, is it? I KILL GUNSHIPS DEAD in my Scout all the time, because I hunt them carefully. But more often, I just get them to move, and then move again, because then they are pretty useless.

And yes, that IS defending an objective...if a Gunship ain't sniping, it isn't killing turrets or other defenders. If by "defending" you only mean racking up defense medals for the board, then that's your problem.

Gunships make me nuts, but I don't think they're OPed at all...ANNOYING, but not OPed. I don't think "annoying" really deserves a nerf.

[MCaliban]

Situational awareness. A good gunship pilot will blow that scout out of the air (space?) the second he turns around.

That's going to be difficult. By the time a gunship can turn 180, a scout can move 10k. They then have to charge the shot and actually hit.

 

As a scout, I've never disengaged from a gunship and gotten shot by it while moving away.

 

Besides they *will* come back and I have *never* had a gunship that I chased off but didn't kill *not* come back and try to kill me. I guess they can't resist trying to one-up the guy that almost got them.

 

You know that strikers and scouts do this to gunships as well, right? One AOE ion blast is like kicking a hornet's nest. In a match earlier today, I was able to lure not one, but three ships back to the capitol ship turrets. And I didn't even do hull damage.

Edited December 17, 2013 by MCaliban

[Brewski]

If the gunships is running on a straight course they can just hold down C to see exactly what you are doing.

 

Besides they *will* come back and I have *never* had a gunship that I chased off but didn't kill *not* come back and try to kill me. I guess they can't resist trying to one-up the guy that almost got them.

 

How is this any different than me killing him, him respawning, and coming after me again? It's part of the game. The point is, he restarts at his spawn point, I don't die, and while he's waiting for his engine to recharge, I'm back at the cap point chasing his buddy.

 

People need to stop treating gunships as all powerful boogiemen. They have strengths, they have weaknesses, but in the end they are just ships piloted by other players. The gunship may (eventually) need some slight nerfs, but people on this forum act like flying one is a win button. If that was true, it would be the only thing anyone flew, and that just doesn't happen.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Brewski

[Zoom_VI]

How is this any different than me killing him, him respawning, and coming after me again? It's part of the game. The point is, he restarts at his spawn point, I don't die, and while he's waiting for his engine to recharge, I'm back at the cap point chasing his buddy.

 

Firstly he isn't at respawn point. Respawn point would mean he ran all the way to directly above his ships bridge. Nobody does that b/c the killzone for the turrets extends nearly 12km in front of the ship. And he doesn't have to wait on the respawn timer. So no you didn't "effectively kill him" Not even close.

 

And if you think it takes him days to get back to point LoL, it takes him no more than 20 seconds to get back into a firing position unless he is braindead and wasn't using power to engines. You probably haven't even killed his buddy by the time you're going to be eating his rail again.

[Cashal]

You know that strikers and scouts do this to gunships as well, right? One AOE ion blast is like kicking a hornet's nest. In a match earlier today, I was able to lure not one, but three ships back to the capitol ship turrets. And I didn't even do hull damage.

 

LOL, I think I was in that game. And I was one of the three. Yes, we were determined to kill you

[Brewski]

Firstly he isn't at respawn point. Respawn point would mean he ran all the way to directly above his ships bridge. Nobody does that b/c the killzone for the turrets extends nearly 12km in front of the ship. And he doesn't have to wait on the respawn timer. So no you didn't "effectively kill him" Not even close.

 

And if you think it takes him days to get back to point LoL, it takes him no more than 20 seconds to get back into a firing position unless he is braindead and wasn't using power to engines. You probably haven't even killed his buddy by the time you're going to be eating his rail again.

 

Except I don't. Your explanations never happen in the actual game, at least not to me. I'm not sure what godlike mind reading genius gunship pilots you have on your server, but on mine they are just like everyone else. Some good, some bad, some great, some horrible, and what I'm telling you is even against the great ones I have never been snipped while returning, nor have I been snipped at the cap point by the same guy after chasing him off without a respectable interval. An interval, I might add, in which I have the same chance to find him as I do any inbound gunship.

 

You seem to have built gunships into some sort of godlike category, and their pilots into unstoppable killing machines. Reality just does match this assessment.

[Vember]

How is this any different than me killing him, him respawning, and coming after me again? It's part of the game. The point is, he restarts at his spawn point, I don't die, and while he's waiting for his engine to recharge, I'm back at the cap point chasing his buddy.

 

People need to stop treating gunships as all powerful boogiemen. They have strengths, they have weaknesses, but in the end they are just ships piloted by other players. The gunship may (eventually) need some slight nerfs, but people on this forum act like flying one is a win button. If that was true, it would be the only thing anyone flew, and that just doesn't happen.

 

The original context was about ships being out of play. You guys are going off on a different tangent now. Good gunship pilots are notoriously hard to kill, and even though you may have taken the gunship out of play by chasing him, you are also out of play, and it will take you longer to get back into effective fighting range than it will him.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Vember

[Brewski]

The original context was about ships being out of play. You guys are going off on a different tangent now. Good gunship pilots are notoriously hard to kill, and even though you may have taken the gunship out of play by chasing him, you are also out of play, and it will take you longer to get back into effective fighting range than it will him.

 

Actually, yes there is a tangent, but my point still revolves around this. When I chase a gunship and he rabbits for the border, I hunt until he's about halfway home, and if I haven't killed him I just boost back to the objective. All these situations people throw out there just never happen.

 

• I have never been killed on the return trip by a gunship I was chasing.
  
• I have never had said gunship beat me back to the objective.
  
• I have never been snipped by said gunship after I return without a respectable time lapse. Time enough for me to chase off or kill another gunship.
  

 

The best gunship pilots take time to position themselves for best advantage. They don't boost in blind and try to snipe the first guy they see. Those guys end up dead.

 

So in the end, if I play well, I am contributing more to the game more than I am losing, because I can keep more than one gunship occupied (or dead) by myself. I do it all the time. The simple fact is all of these theoretical scenarios that make gunships sounds so overpowered just do not happen as they are being represented here in the forums.

 

Hell, the best gunship pilots I see don't run for the spawn point at ll. They boost towards combat, trying to shake me by bringing me closer to their strike fighters and scouts. That gives the best chance to lose me while still being able to reposition faster.

[Vember]

Actually, yes there is a tangent, but my point still revolves around this. When I chase a gunship and he rabbits for the border, I hunt until he's about halfway home, and if I haven't killed him I just boost back to the objective.

 

And in the right situations that can be beneficial. In other situations, that can end up hurting your team.

 

[*]I have never been killed on the return trip by a gunship I was chasing.

 

I have, and have done so. I don't pilot gunships often, but I've killed more than a few scouts that gave up chasing me. It's all about situational awareness, as Zoom pointed out: use that C key.

 

The best gunship pilots take time to position themselves for best advantage.

 

The best ones already know where they're going.

 

So in the end, if I play well, I am contributing more to the game more than I am losing, because I can keep more than one gunship occupied (or dead) by myself. I do it all the time. The simple fact is all of these theoretical scenarios that make gunships sounds so overpowered just do not happen as they are being represented here in the forums.

 

I really have to question you on this, because I can't possibly see how every gunship pilot you come across is a noob. Granted, there is a time to chase and a time not to chase, but they're also not so easily discarded as you make them out to be. Very good gunship pilots are extremely dangerous, more so, I find, than good scout or fighter pilots.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Vember

[Brewski]

If you are killing scouts who turn around, it's because the scout is a noob, and if you are dying, it's because you aren't paying attention. There's no way a gunship can turn around, aim, charge and fire before a boosting scout can be out of range.

 

And really, all of it is academic most of the times since 3/4 times I will kill a running gunship before he gets there anyway.

 

And in the end you will believe, or not believe, what you choose. I can only tell you what I see myself. I pilot scouts most of the time. I spend a lot of that time hunting gunships, and rarely have issues keeping them busy/dead. When I do, it's invariably from a pre-built squadron with multiple ships coordinating, in which case they don't run at all, and I just get pegged with proton torpedoes before I force them to run.

 

Frankly, if you are flying a gunship hunting scout and can't do so effectively, you need to find a role you are better suited for.

[Brewski]

Very good gunship pilots are extremely dangerous, more so, I find, than good scout or fighter pilots.

 

I also wanted to pull this out specifically and say I fully agree. Very good gunship pilots are just as (but not more) deadly as very good pilots in other roles. Very good gunship pilots can (and do) kill me, just not in the easy mode manner you express. Very good gunship pilots realize after the first time they fail to lead me to the spawn turrets that I won't follow, and instead of rabbiting away from the objective, they boost towards friends and get me peeled off that way.

 

We aren't discussing very good gunship pilots, we are discussing the average gunship pilot. If gunships are as OP as some people suggest, everyone would be flying them, and matches would be determined by which side has more gunships. Since neither of those are true, I think the sky is not falling after all.

[Vember]

If you are killing scouts who turn around, it's because the scout is a noob, and if you are dying, it's because you aren't paying attention. There's no way a gunship can turn around, aim, charge and fire before a boosting scout can be out of range.

 

 

If the scout hasn't burned his boost pursuing you, he wasn't close enough to be a threat to begin with.

[Brewski]

If the scout hasn't burned his boost pursuing you, he wasn't close enough to be a threat to begin with.

Now I have to call you out on this, as it is entirely dependent on the scout build, power conversion status, relative starting location and path of both ships. Personally I take remaining boost power into account when making the decision on if/when to turn around. Properly managed, boost power is not an issue here.

 

Once again, you act like gunships have 50% more boost power, maneuverability, armor and DPS than every other ship. Like every other ship they have strengths and weaknesses. They are not all power god killing win buttons.

 

It comes down to the play style and ability of a pilot. If you are not able to effectively play the role you are in, try a new one until you find a good one for you.

 

Just as an example, I am miserable at flying gunships. Put me in a gunship and I will spend the entire match feeding free kills to the enemy. I have no idea why, but I am found and killed faster than I can charge my gun.

 

I moved to playing scouts that kill the gunships, and I not had a match where my deaths exceeded my kills since.

 

I guess I don't want you to nerf gunships because if you do no one will play them, and I will have to change roles too.

[Vember]

Once again, you act like gunships have 50% more boost power, maneuverability, armor and DPS than every other ship.

 

Nope, I'm acting like they have a much more effective range than every other ship. Which they do.

 

It comes down to the play style and ability of a pilot. If you are not able to effectively play the role you are in, try a new one until you find a good one for you.

 

Just as an example, I am miserable at flying gunships. Put me in a gunship and I will spend the entire match feeding free kills to the enemy. I have no idea why, but I am found and killed faster than I can charge my gun.

 

I moved to playing scouts that kill the gunships, and I not had a match where my deaths exceeded my kills since.

 

I guess I don't want you to nerf gunships because if you do no one will play them, and I will have to change roles too.

 

This is true, I found my niche in the Novadive And I don't really want gunships nerfed to be honest, but I do think bypass and barrel roll are a tad overpowering for that kind of ship's loadout.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Vember

[Brewski]

This is true, I found my niche in the Novadive And I don't really want gunships nerfed to be honest, but I do think bypass and barrel roll are a tad overpowering for that kind of ship's loadout.

 

Woot! Total agreement! \O/

 

Bypass needs a slight nerf, but it needs to be slight, and I haven't played with the barrel roll thing yet, but I would probably agree there too if it's as effective as some say.

 

My issue has never been with tweaks. There are several needed beyond those. None of them are game breaking though. My issue has always been with the more alarmist statements some people are fond of making. On my server, the days of gunships scoring double digit kills in every match are gone. They vary in effectiveness based on the pilot and the match, which is exactly where it should be. (For all ship types.)