Why must we grind for PVP gear anyway?

[HexDecimalUK]

If theres one thing thats always puzzled me about this game, or ANY game, is the need to mix gear progression with PVP. If BW care so much about balance as to come up with a whole bolster mechanic then why is there tiers of gear for PVP? and why do we have to earn and spend coms on gear to do what is already being done by a buff? (too an extent) the message is " we want the game to be balanced but we also want you to try and out gear eachother" am i the only one who finds that notion totally absurd? am the only one who refused to arena until im full min max obroan? am i the only one who is constantly sighing in disappointment when my team mates are in lvl 40 greens?

 

Now it seems to me that the only reason to add a progression system to PVP is to make players feel good about themselves by being stronger than others and enjoy their superiority, That or pressure us into playing more than we would to get on even ground with everyone else, is the gameplay alone not fun enough? i for one think it is and doesn't need this kind of a system to keep me playing it and if anything the thought of winning simply because the other team were under-geared is worse than loosing

 

This other side is the whole PVP vs PVE thing, the gear must be equal in terms of stats right?, Why? im pretty sure that old warhero gear would still stamp all over the current best PVE set or maybe they just need to update the armour ratings without effecting the stats.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply have 1 tier of PVP sets for FREE that is good enough that it can stand up to even the best PVE set in the world without being nearly as good against the environment say maybe Partizan grade? and then as a bonus serve a starter set for PVE like the old recruit gear. No need for bolster at all then.

 

But perhaps thats all a bit of an overreaction to say all my gear should be free for all of us, im merely trying to blow my point enough out of proportion that my logic makes sense, because happily it doesn't take too long to get the first set, i just really don't see the need for the second set? its caused me to bench half my 55s because if i haven't got time to gear them then why play them? it stops me exploring other aspects of the game because i gotta get my obroan min maxed and still keep a plentiful supply of adrenals and med packs and i think if this game just stopped at Obroan and left it at that come the next season of gear there would be allot less PVPers leaving the game as i see in disturbing numbers in every guild iv been in. Ask yourself how many inactive 55s are in your guild?

 

Of course if there's a good argument to this i will welcome it, in fact i would thank you to give me a reason to renew my subscription

[DarthMaulUK]

They can't allow players to rely on skill. So long as there is a gear gap, the majority are happy. It's an outdated game mechanic but right now, Bioware have nothing else to offer pvpers and 2 years on, Ilum is STILL broken

[ralphieceaser]

no gear=pure skill

Most players=bad skill

Bad skill=realization that you are weak and useless

such realizations=ragequit

ragequit=no money for company

[HexDecimalUK]

no gear=pure skill

Most players=bad skill

Bad skill=realization that you are weak and useless

such realizations=ragequit

ragequit=no money for company

 

I play counterstrike buddy, that logic is not true lol i mean srsly that game is hardcore difficult and sees over 1 million unique players a month, hows about halo CE, 8-10K daily spike on a 2001 game, you like not having lag compensation? GW1, still active still running tournys i could go on listing busy games to you and in all of them 90% of the players are worthless yet they play because the game is good. And i think if this game wasnt AS good then it would be gone by now like every other MMO that tries to compete with world of warcraft and using that same outdated progression system. feeling like a giant because your top geared and getting off at the size of your own metaphorical junk is for other games (ehem eve) Swtor is already above pay2win it should be above grind2win as well and that doesnt have to conflict with PVE at all.

Edited December 7, 2013 by HexDecimalUK

[Taankjr]

Grind gear - spend time in the game - pay $. Simple as that.

[Zunayson]

I've made a shorter more to the point version which I can reproduce below

 

 

Expertise:

• At launch, expertise was 15% across the board - clearly meant for an advantage for those who have pvp gear. No expertise bolster at all.
  
• By 1.2, expertise was recurved on the DR because people would only do BM/rakata hybrids. This change shows that they want people to do full pvp gear.
  
• By 2.0, expertise was recurved into its linear DR today. It was ambiguous as to which was better - power or exp crystals. Bioware clearly wants us stacking pvp gear to get an edge over our opponents.
  

 

Bolster:

• At launch, bolster did not look at expertise. It was only used to bolster ability ranks, effective level (so lv 10s can hit lv 50s and not resist everything), hp, general stats, etc.
  
• By 1.2, bolster looked at expertise I'm pretty sure (can't remember ), because in 1.2 expertise went up to 22/18/12 percentish as far as dps/DR/healing goes. Clearly meant to even the playing field.
  
• By 2.0, expertise is now fully bolstered and has no real use. From launch to 2.0, the bolster has evened the playing field to the point where expertise is useless.
  

[HexDecimalUK]

I've made a shorter more to the point version which I can reproduce below

 

 

Expertise:

• At launch, expertise was 15% across the board - clearly meant for an advantage for those who have pvp gear. No expertise bolster at all.
  
• By 1.2, expertise was recurved on the DR because people would only do BM/rakata hybrids. This change shows that they want people to do full pvp gear.
  
• By 2.0, expertise was recurved into its linear DR today. It was ambiguous as to which was better - power or exp crystals. Bioware clearly wants us stacking pvp gear to get an edge over our opponents.
  

 

Bolster:

• At launch, bolster did not look at expertise. It was only used to bolster ability ranks, effective level (so lv 10s can hit lv 50s and not resist everything), hp, general stats, etc.
  
• By 1.2, bolster looked at expertise I'm pretty sure (can't remember ), because in 1.2 expertise went up to 22/18/12 percentish as far as dps/DR/healing goes. Clearly meant to even the playing field.
  
• By 2.0, expertise is now fully bolstered and has no real use. From launch to 2.0, the bolster has evened the playing field to the point where expertise is useless.
  

 

IKR but people in the full obroan still have an edge, if balance is so important to BW that they will put this bolster system in, why is there an Edge over it? why dont i just grind out the top PVE gear im shure it takes as long but at least i can stand up in HMs or just dance through dailys.

[Laoi]

agree, its totally brainless to make us pvpers grind for this ****. just give pvp gear for free that is on par with stats of best pve gear + has the expertise bonus. leave the grinding to the roleplayers who actually enjoy it.

[Xanas]

Completely agree with OP but I need to know why do we need to grind for PVE gear to? Let's remove that one to...

[HexDecimalUK]

I've made a shorter more to the point version which I can reproduce below

 

 

Expertise:

• At launch, expertise was 15% across the board - clearly meant for an advantage for those who have pvp gear. No expertise bolster at all.
  
• By 1.2, expertise was recurved on the DR because people would only do BM/rakata hybrids. This change shows that they want people to do full pvp gear.
  
• By 2.0, expertise was recurved into its linear DR today. It was ambiguous as to which was better - power or exp crystals. Bioware clearly wants us stacking pvp gear to get an edge over our opponents.
  

 

Bolster:

• At launch, bolster did not look at expertise. It was only used to bolster ability ranks, effective level (so lv 10s can hit lv 50s and not resist everything), hp, general stats, etc.
  
• By 1.2, bolster looked at expertise I'm pretty sure (can't remember ), because in 1.2 expertise went up to 22/18/12 percentish as far as dps/DR/healing goes. Clearly meant to even the playing field.
  
• By 2.0, expertise is now fully bolstered and has no real use. From launch to 2.0, the bolster has evened the playing field to the point where expertise is useless.
  

 

IKR but people in the full obroan still have an edge, if balance is so important to BW that they will put this bolster system in, why is there an Edge over it? why dont i just grind out the top PVE gear im shure it takes as long but at least i can stand up in HMs or just dance through dailys.

[Odyseus]

This is an MMO, if you don't want to grind for gear go play Street Fighter. Simple as that. Edited December 7, 2013 by Odyseus

[MidichIorian]

I play counterstrike buddy, that logic is not true lol i mean srsly that game is hardcore difficult and sees over 1 million unique players a month, hows about halo CE, 8-10K daily spike on a 2001 game, you like not having lag compensation? GW1, still active still running tournys i could go on listing busy games to you and in all of them 90% of the players are worthless yet they play because the game is good.

You pretty much nailed it there.

 

*This game doesnt have the competitive population other games have. Granted that the vast majority of players utterly suck in those other games but their approach is more competitive. There's a more casual stance toward ranks too so people are willing to hang in there.

 

*A bunch of those other games rely on a younger age group, an age group that has the time and mindset to stick with it.

 

*The things mentioned above combined with the lack of content, specifically maps, and general population (as an outcome of no x-server) forces swtor to rely on something els and they chose gear progression. The same gear progression would have ruined a game like Halo 2but in this game it's necessary.

 

Perhaps they should make everything ranked and track more stats. I made a big deal out of placing high on Gamebatlles and Halocharts (and other stat tracking sites/leagues) back in the day. Those things kept me interested and it was fun to compete against pros and other top players, some of which i usually played with. Then again, in shooters you're able to have a greater impact on the outcome of games. I could pug Reach Arena and quickly get to Onyx. I can pug swtor Arena day in an day out and I'm still not going to win every time unless I get extremely lucky with team mates and play a decent class.

Edited December 7, 2013 by MidichIorian

[af_raptura]

Completely agree with OP but I need to know why do we need to grind for PVE gear to? Let's remove that one to...

 

I was thinking about that one, too. Would PvE players still do ops without the incentive for better gear?

[Evolixe]

I would personally prefer to have my gear mailed to me on patchday aswell. But it just won't happen since a large portion of the people keeps playing because they need a reason to.

 

And beating the competition with just suprerior skill isn't a good enough reason.

[TheNahash]

IKR but people in the full obroan still have an edge, if balance is so important to BW that they will put this bolster system in, why is there an Edge over it? why dont i just grind out the top PVE gear im shure it takes as long but at least i can stand up in HMs or just dance through dailys.

 

"Grinding" is doing something you don't enjoy. If you don't enjoy PVPing, why do you care about PVP gear? It's not like it's equal to or better than PVE gear for anything else besides PVP. In fact it's significantly worse, stat-wise.

 

PVP gear is something for PVPers to work towards.

The same way a PVEr cares about clearing an operation, PVPers need to have a goal as well.

Ranked Arenas is one thing and season 1 has just started so you could say that could be what they should work towards, but then again a very small portion of the game's population does ranked.

 

Adding vanity items (like speeder or pets) is also a good alternative goal, but it won't keep people in the game for long, especially not with cooler Cartel Market items being added all the time, making everything seem "old" 4-5 weeks after it's been added.

 

And even if you PVP once in a while, you can just get full conqueror which is doable in a week or less and you're fine. Obroan is pretty insignificant improvement over it.

Edited December 7, 2013 by TheNahash

[Zunayson]

"Grinding" is doing something you don't enjoy. If you don't enjoy PVPing, why do you care about PVP gear? It's not like it's equal to or better than PVE gear for anything else besides PVP. In fact it's significantly worse, stat-wise.

 

PVP gear is something for PVPers to work towards.

The same way a PVEr cares about clearing an operation, PVPers need to have a goal as well.

Ranked Arenas is one thing and season 1 has just started so you could say that could be what they should work towards, but then again a very small portion of the game's population does ranked.

 

Adding vanity items (like speeder or pets) is also a good alternative goal, but it won't keep people in the game for long, especially not with cooler Cartel Market items being added all the time, making everything seem "old" 4-5 weeks after it's been added.

 

And even if you PVP once in a while, you can just get full conqueror which is doable in a week or less and you're fine. Obroan is pretty insignificant improvement over it.

 

pretty much this.

 

It was 1.6-1.7 that eliminated the gear grind imo. Obv the RNG crap at launch was BS. Starting at 1.2, BM gear was easy, but WH was so much better but just took forever.

 

Once WH gear was easy like BM gear and EWH was added, the gear gap was almost non existent, as it is was with partisan/conq and now with conq/obroan

[cashogy_reborn]

There is no more gear gap. Stop the crying.

[madtycoon]

This game needs the PvP gear grind. Honestly it should have been spread out with weekly caps at the start of a new tier (season) like WOW does, with increased caps for people who haven't reached cap so every week players can catch up.

 

The gear grind might be horrible, but it helps the player base numbers. If the gear grind wasn't there, the game would come down to its raw PvP gameplay. A lot of players would get bored and unsubscribe.

 

When a player reaches max level and wants to PvP, they have to spend some time gearing before they can actually compete. Even if they don't like the grind or gameplay, they are more likely to stick it out until they are fully geared. Who knows maybe after such a long grind they might want to stay.

 

If you give the best gear away at 55, now the game just comes down to gameplay at least from a PVP standpoint. You have to now have really strong gameplay. Look at multi-player games that are successful without a gearish type grinds. Starcraft 2, counterstrike, halo... etc. Even DOTA style games. Games that you can sit down and play without worrying about gearing or leveling. Those games are more skill based. They reward players with rating off individual skill better than a game like this. The people who play those games for the most part want to get good at them and want to achieve higher rating.

 

That's not really the case in a game like this. The skill based draw isn't there. Especially in the PVP aspect of this game. For some players it is, but those are the same players that are going to stick it out with this game no matter what happens. So giving those players full gear when they hit 55 or even just giving them an unlimited amount of 55s or making them grind gear and level, they are going to stay with the game regardless.

 

WOW high end arena is probably the PVP mecca for games in this genre. I mean its been around for awhile and has definately seen a drop in activity, but even in its hay day there were servers where you could log on and get fully geared characters and just play PVP content. Everyone knew about the blizzard arena tournament realms and everyone knows about the non blizzard tournament realms.

 

Its the equivalent to what you are talking about with this game. Everyone is in the best gear possible and now it just comes down to gameplay. Those servers are dead when compared to live. The only one who plays them are the hardcore players who really enjoy the game's PVP.

 

You take away the gear grind and it will hurt the PVP player base in SWTOR even more, because the PVP gameplay cannot stand alone and be successful.

[RodneyMcNeely]

I understand Bolser for pre-55 PvP. I really do.

 

What I DON'T understand is Bolster for max-level PvP in a game that was designed FROM THE GROUND UP to be a gear-driven MMORPG. Tiers of progressive Expertise-itemized gear make absolutely no sense if the second you queue into a warzone or arena, you're sitting on 2018 Expertise anyway.

 

I DO understand the frustration of getting facerolled by the gear gap as a fresh 55, but I also understand that I have to level a bit and gear up if I want to run an operation. I don't expect to be able to jump right in.

 

I would also be a lot more favorably inclined toward 55 Bolster if it weren't so wonky. Apparently, not even the developers can explain quite how it works. Here are my reasons for disliking it, taken from another thread:

 

One thing you may be experiencing is Bolster wonkiness. I wish I had video evidence to support what I'm about to tell you, but I've just never gotten around to downloading a capture program.

 

I used to play on Jung Ma. Right after Bolster was added to the 55 bracket (in about three different instances) I faced the same several Imperial players who just DESTROYED everyone else whenever they queued up. I assumed they were fully geared out, and didn't mind losing to them as they were skilled and gracious players.

 

Then we had several scheduled open world PvP events with well over 30 people per faction. The action lasted several hours in each case, and I noticed those same players were present. In the interest of a little payback, I decided to target them.

 

They absolutely blew up. Consistently. Even with tank/healer support, I could kill them. I hadn't changed a thing about my playstyle or gear. But I could kill them. And they weren't 3-shotting me like they were before. It was gratifying, to say the least.

 

But, I figured they were in PvE gear and hopped onto my Imperial alt to check it out for myself. Boy, was I in for a shock.

 

All 3 of the players I had just handily dispatched (but couldn't scratch in a warzone) were wearing fully-augmented Conqueror gear WHILE THOSE FIGHTS WERE STILL GOING ON.

 

The only logical conclusion that I've been able to come to is that Bolster applies its effects in a wildly inconsistent fashion. Of course I can't say that with certainty, because I have no idea how it's supposed to work.

 

I'd be interested to see if anyone else's experience has been the same.

[RougeBeaver]

If there was no gear grind, pvp would be a useless venture since commendations wouldn't do anything. Not everyone finds enjoyment in the sheer aspect of pvp, there needs to be a reason to do it.

 

Without it, pvp probably wouldn't exist.

[Tentou]

People want a struggle, they want to work for something. MMOs aim to give people that false sense of achievement from the comfort of their own home with very little risk of failure, hence the gear grind. Edited December 8, 2013 by Tentou

[HexDecimalUK]

If there was no gear grind, pvp would be a useless venture since commendations wouldn't do anything. Not everyone finds enjoyment in the sheer aspect of pvp, there needs to be a reason to do it.

 

Without it, pvp probably wouldn't exist.

 

Why do you even play video games? or breath? im deadly serious here as well, what your saying is you spend your spare time and money on something you don't enjoy just to get a sense of superiority and accomplishment, i got news for you buddy, getting geared in video games is no accomplishment by anyone's standards in any context at all its not even a reward its just a hurdle, an inconvenience and i feel deeply sorry for you if that's what your life has been reduced to, i for one would like think the majority of players play PVP for the enjoyment of facing off against players and mastering their class over others. What you have just typed demonstrates that people are coming into PVP, waiting in line till their geared, and expecting to have their happy meal-free kill served to them. that's not PVP bro, that's grind vs grind your not even being rewarded with anything other than playing more OFTEN than others, you would think that actual personal experience would give enough advantage but i know that's living in dream world every time i see 55s with high valor rushing the far node on novara coast instead of attacking healers but that another gripe altogether.

[Evolixe]

Not everyone finds enjoyment in the sheer aspect of pvp, there needs to be a reason to do it.

Not everyone finds enjoyment in the sheer aspect of pvp

Not everyone

 

That's just it. Those who don't really don't have much sense for competition and aren't playing PvP for the, well.., PvP.

 

So in other words:

Without it, pvp probably wouldn't exist.

 

That is complete ********. It would just be more competative and less for the "casual" player.

[cashogy_reborn]

If there was no gear grind, pvp would be a useless venture since commendations wouldn't do anything. Not everyone finds enjoyment in the sheer aspect of pvp, there needs to be a reason to do it.

 

Without it, pvp probably wouldn't exist.

 

And this right here is what is wrong with the majority of the PvP population.

[MidichIorian]

That is complete ********. It would just be more competitive and less for the "casual" player.

I really don't get how you came to that conclusion. The "competitive" part of the community has had every chance to be competitive and it has failed due to the lacking population. You don't honestly think that people who can't endure 1 weeks worth of a gear grind all of a sudden would become super hardcord competitive and join the ranked scene? All that would happen is that:

 

A. Less people would play, because the game isnt good enough to stand on its own. Or make that; the game doesnt have the content to keep you entertained for long. With 10 different 8 vs 8 warzones and a promise of more on the way it might have been a different story.

B.A lot of the players who actually play a fair amount, myself included, would probably play less. I have , on several occassions, played an extra 1-2 games just to get a piece of gear when I, in a game with no gear, would have quit for the day.