Hardmode queue time!

[Agenteusa]

Let's not be black and white here.

 

It's clear that Tanks and healers are always in shorter suppiles than DPS. That's an issue. It's clear that hast to be addressed not just here but in every mmo.

 

It's also clear that some DD's can't be arsed to respect the tanks so there is also an issue in here. This one is easily solvable.

 

It's also clear that lots of tanks and healers leave queues if they don't get what they want cause they know they can get a fast one after.

 

What's ironic about all this is I'm betting 95% that lots of people complaining abotu this issue were tanks, are geared now and did the same **** before to other DD's.

 

Funny isn't it?

[gorstram]

Let's not be black and white here.

 

It's clear that Tanks and healers are always in shorter suppiles than DPS. That's an issue. It's clear that hast to be addressed not just here but in every mmo.

 

It's also clear that some DD's can't be arsed to respect the tanks so there is also an issue in here. This one is easily solvable.

 

It's also clear that lots of tanks and healers leave queues if they don't get what they want cause they know they can get a fast one after.

 

What's ironic about all this is I'm betting 95% that lots of people complaining abotu this issue were tanks, are geared now and did the same **** before to other DD's.

 

Funny isn't it?

 

I don't understand your post. There are just a couple of places i need some clarification. If you could just expand upon the bolded items above.

Edited December 3, 2013 by gorstram

[Agenteusa]

I don't understand your post. There are just a couple of places i need some clarification. If you could just expand upon the bolded items above.

 

either /sarcasm or learn english

 

And I forgot to add one , there's also those tanks that want to cc every ****ign pack of mobs when clearly the group can handle it easily. Those are also annoying.

 

There I'm done.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Agenteusa

[gorstram]

Let's not be black and white here. (What primary color would you like the people in this thread to be?)

 

It's clear that Tanks and healers are always in shorter suppiles than DPS. That's an issue. It's clear that hast to be addressed not just here but in every mmo. (I see past your mild mannered forum avatar for who you really are, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!)

 

It's also clear that some DD's can't be arsed to respect the tanks so there is also an issue in here. This one is easily solvable. (That's not why there's a shortage of tanks)

 

It's also clear that lots of tanks and healers leave queues if they don't get what they want cause they know they can get a fast one after. (A tank and healer don't know what they're going to get FP wise unless they hit the "Accept" button, if they do and then bail, it's a 15 minute cooldown before they can requeue)

 

What's ironic about all this is I'm betting 95% that lots of people complaining abotu this issue were tanks, are geared now and did the same **** before to other DD's. (This makes absolutely no sense)

 

Funny isn't it?

 

There.

Edited December 3, 2013 by gorstram

[grinchus]

The only thing I would say (and this is just my observation) is that there are a lot of superstar know-it-all SWTOR players who are complete jerks in FPs. IMO rather than crying like babies and leaving because of a bad DPS, take a moment to whisper to the problem DPS (or other) and explain the problem. I have done this many times and it almost always (95% of the time) works. I have found that bad DPS players are not normally doing it on purpose, they simply did not know good protocol. This applies to the concept of when to need, when to greed and when to pass. Just take a moment to explain and get everyone on the same page before the FP starts. Be a mature player and try to help someone. If they don't listen, then boot them from the team or leave the FP. It sure makes the game more enjoyable than to have so many people pi$$ing and moaning and complaining all the time about "bad" players. It takes only a minute to get everyone on the same page before the FP starts.

 

In other words, the only way to have better players on SWTOR Flashpoints is to help them be better players by educating them.

Edited December 3, 2013 by grinchus

[Agenteusa]

 

Let's not be black and white here. (What primary color would you like the people in this thread to be?)Here kid go buy an ice cream if you don't understand sentence meanings

 

It's clear that Tanks and healers are always in shorter suppiles than DPS. That's an issue. It's clear that hast to be addressed not just here but in every mmo. (I see past your mild mannered forum avatar for who you really are, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!)

If you would have read the whole thread you would probably acknowledge it as not being obvious for everyone kid (btw CAPS doesn't make you more intelligent, yes?)

 

It's also clear that some DD's can't be arsed to respect the tanks so there is also an issue in here. This one is easily solvable. (That's not why there's a shortage of tanks)

I didn't say it is, I only said it's an issue, are you mind reading there?

 

It's also clear that lots of tanks and healers leave queues if they don't get what they want cause they know they can get a fast one after. (A tank and healer don't know what they're going to get FP wise unless they hit the "Accept" button, if they do and then bail, it's a 15 minute cooldown before they can requeue)

Again I didn't say they left after hitting enter, I said "if they don't get what they want" and I meant by that class wise

 

What's ironic about all this is I'm betting 95% that lots of people complaining abotu this issue were tanks, are geared now and did the same **** before to other DD's. (This makes absolutely no sense)

Good. I didn't think it would make sense to a kid, at least behavior wise

 

 

answers above.

[ImpactHound]

Let's not be black and white here. (What primary color would you like the people in this thread to be?)Here kid go buy an ice cream if you don't understand sentence meaningsHe's an old man

 

It's clear that Tanks and healers are always in shorter suppiles than DPS. That's an issue. It's clear that hast to be addressed not just here but in every mmo. (I see past your mild mannered forum avatar for who you really are, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!)

If you would have read the whole thread you would probably acknowledge it as not being obvious for everyone kid (btw CAPS doesn't make you more intelligent, yes?)It was a lot of sarcasm, but you used it too. Also he's an old man.

 

It's also clear that some DD's can't be arsed to respect the tanks so there is also an issue in here. This one is easily solvable. (That's not why there's a shortage of tanks)

I didn't say it is, I only said it's an issue, are you mind reading there?This is where you could had started a meanignful dialogue, but chose not to. Why is there a shortage of public tanks?

 

It's also clear that lots of tanks and healers leave queues if they don't get what they want cause they know they can get a fast one after. (A tank and healer don't know what they're going to get FP wise unless they hit the "Accept" button, if they do and then bail, it's a 15 minute cooldown before they can requeue)

Again I didn't say they left after hitting enter, I said "if they don't get what they want" and I meant by that class wiseValid point, I think you two might be having two different conversations

 

What's ironic about all this is I'm betting 95% that lots of people complaining abotu this issue were tanks, are geared now and did the same **** before to other DD's. (This makes absolutely no sense)

Good. I didn't think it would make sense to a kid, at least behavior wiseThis is a somewhat pointless statement, I don't understand what you were trying to convey either. And why do you keep calling him a kid? He helped build the pyramids.

I'm involved too!

[gorstram]

answers above.

 

I have read the whole thread, and your response appeared to be a disjointed attempt at hopping on the anecdotal bandwagon. As for calling me a kid, I suppose that's a valid retort for someone who has failed so utterly and completely to address the concerns originally posted in the thread. So now that you're seated comfortably on the aforementioned bandwagon, let me offer you an opportunity to actually contribute a substantive idea to this thread.

 

1) Why do you think there is such a shortage of tanks in the queue?

 

2) What is your suggestion on bringing more tanks and healers into the fold?

 

3) What would you propose to make sure that DPS wouldn't cheat to get quicker queue times?

 

Feel free to answer any of one or more of these, and thank you in advance for actually contributing to the thread.

[Agenteusa]

I have read the whole thread, and your response appeared to be a disjointed attempt at hopping on the anecdotal bandwagon. As for calling me a kid, I suppose that's a valid retort for someone who has failed so utterly and completely to address the concerns originally posted in the thread. So now that you're seated comfortably on the aforementioned bandwagon, let me offer you an opportunity to actually contribute a substantive idea to this thread.

 

1) Why do you think there is such a shortage of tanks in the queue?

 

2) What is your suggestion on bringing more tanks and healers into the fold?

 

3) What would you propose to make sure that DPS wouldn't cheat to get quicker queue times?

 

Feel free to answer any of one or more of these, and thank you in advance for actually contributing to the thread.

 

No I didn't, I read the whole thread and it was you who started the sarcasm but sure let's cover valid points:

 

1 - This is obviously a mix that's what I referred to when saying "it's not black and white" as lots of people in the thread are saying it's just because of this or that. Tanks always had shortages in most if not all MMO's and it's mainly due to the fact (from my experience) that most don't want to take on the responsibility of the role. Healers also are traditionally in shortage but not as much as tanks.

 

So basically a mix of some DD's behavior, people playing Tanks arrogance, short queues for tanks and generally community state in mmo's are the cause.

 

2 - Like I read before I really don't think there's much that can be done as most tanks and healers already do their thing with friends/guildies. Again I would think that the improvement of the community would probably boost it a little but people are arrogant as hell these days in mmo's so no one wants to meld with potential idiots. I'm sure you know what I mean.

 

3 - You can't queue as a Tank if you're a dps in most other mmo's so your answer is right there. I dunno why they felt that just because you have an AC that can be either a tank or a dps should be able to queue as both. that's an easy check right there.

 

Thanks to you too for continuing to be sarcastic.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Agenteusa

[ImpactHound]

I have read the whole thread, and your response appeared to be a disjointed attempt at hopping on the anecdotal bandwagon. As for calling me a kid, I suppose that's a valid retort for someone who has failed so utterly and completely to address the concerns originally posted in the thread. So now that you're seated comfortably on the aforementioned bandwagon, let me offer you an opportunity to actually contribute a substantive idea to this thread.

 

1) Why do you think there is such a shortage of tanks in the queue?

I think that because there are still closed queues within each server and legacy names encourage the "community that people so often try to find fault with in WoW's dungeon queues, it comes down to the dichotomy of why new and old players use the 55 flashpoints(a minority want actual gear drops, random parties with random people to mingle and socialize, and the experience of the activity itself; a majority jsut see it as a chore to speed thru with maximum efficiency for weekly comms for gear, a reward that shouldn't be associated with this activity since it's clear it doesn't encourage players from the two trains of thought to get along)

 

2) What is your suggestion on bringing more tanks and healers into the fold?

An incentive system like WoW's where a tank or healer gets something more meaningful if they queue solo, be it a cool title, mount, pets, etc. Current comms like Ultimate would be the last resort. The incentive is automatically pulled or reinstated based on the overall needs of the queue.

 

3) What would you propose to make sure that DPS wouldn't cheat to get quicker queue times?

The community seems unwilling to allow any sort of system-supported inspection, expectation of properly statted gear equipped, or anything similar to qualify and show basic competence of your selected role. This is a community issue at its root, unwilling to force accountability into automatic grouping.

 

Feel free to answer any of one or more of these, and thank you in advance for actually contributing to the thread.

 

/5char

[gorstram]

No I didn't, I read the whole thread and it was you who started the sarcasm but sure let's cover valid points:

 

1 - This is obviously a mix that's what I referred to when saying "it's not black and white" as lots of people in the thread are saying it's just because of this or that. Tanks always had shortages in most if not all MMO's and it's mainly due to the fact (from my experience) that most don't want to take on the responsibility of the role. Healers also are traditionally in shortage but not as much as tanks. I completely agree with this statement. I would further add that Bioware's PvE penalty (commendation caps) further drives this shortage as tanks and healers do not want to leave commendations on the table.

 

So basically a mix of some DD's behavior, people playing Tanks arrogance, short queues for tanks and generally community state in mmo's are the cause.

 

2 - Like I read before I really don't think there's much that can be done as most tanks and healers already do their thing with friends/guildies. Again I would think that the improvement of the community would probably boost it a little but people are arrogant as hell these days in mmo's so no one wants to meld with potential idiots. I'm sure you know what I mean. (I don't know i I agree with you on this. Surely there are people who are arrogant, but for the most part, people just want to put their head down and do their instances. I think given the right incentive, essential people will queue. The real questions are, what incentive will the player base bear, and what is Bioware willing to do to alleviate the problem?)

 

3 - You can't queue as a Tank if you're a dps in most other mmo's so your answer is right there. I dunno why they felt that just because you have an AC that can be either a tank or a dps should be able to queue as both. that's an easy check right there.

 

Thanks to you too for continuing to be sarcastic.

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions. Please see the quote for responses.

[Caelrie]

It also resulted in a lot of DDs who COULD skill as a tank or healer to queue as tank or healer in order to shorten their queue times. To be qualified as a healer or tank for the queue you only need to be technically allowed to dress and skill as that specialist. You do not need to own a single piece of equipment for the job, you do not need to be skilled for the job (in game skill, not player skill) and you do not even need to have the right stance active.

 

How that could be seen as an improvement is beyond me.

You act like this is a new thing. DPS players are already doing this.

 

Exactly. The DPS can and will exploit any mechanics checks the devs might put in place. Sad, but true, in today's MMO player base.

Oh give it a rest. The very first MMORPG playerbase was rife with exploiters too. Gamers haven't changed. Stop with the "kids today" nonsense.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Caelrie

[Agenteusa]

The incentive that Wow queues had for tanks and healers didn't make it go any faster past the first week (which was the week people were playing to see what the rewards would be).

 

You also have to realize since there's only one of each (in dungs/fp's) and they are always less as well in operations/raids that tanks and healers normally gear way faster than DD's which usually have to share loot more competitively.

 

So truth is a tank that doesn't have anything to gain from doing FP's other than a headache if he gets a bad pug will never queue for FP's again unless the reward would be very good.

 

Which I will ever doubt it will be even if a wow system was implemented.

[Melkor_Penfold]

Surely the answer is simple (not sure if anyone else has said this) but BW can fix the times in 2mins, by removing caps on comms. Most my char's are tanks/healers, and I barely run FP's as I stick to OPs, and I get almost my entire weeks worth of Ultimate comms from there, so I don't bother with the Weekly FP. Plus the gear reward is awful from FPs so why do them.

Scrap the cap limit, and give a couple of Ultimate comms from running each FP, and people will run them. Otherwise there is no incentive to do FPs, when you can get better gear from OPs.

[Agenteusa]

Surely the answer is simple (not sure if anyone else has said this) but BW can fix the times in 2mins, by removing caps on comms. Most my char's are tanks/healers, and I barely run FP's as I stick to OPs, and I get almost my entire weeks worth of Ultimate comms from there, so I don't bother with the Weekly FP. Plus the gear reward is awful from FPs so why do them.

Scrap the cap limit, and give a couple of Ultimate comms from running each FP, and people will run them. Otherwise there is no incentive to do FPs, when you can get better gear from OPs.

 

That's a good idea at core but notice that no mmo I know of ( i didn't play all of them ofc) has implemented it yet for a simple reason.

 

Companies want you to stay subbed for as long as possible or to buy as much crap as you can from the store and that would mean you could farm for everything on your main strongly reducing the longevity and the cash spent on store.

 

That's why I think they don't and they never won't implement it.

[Caelrie]

The incentive that Wow queues had for tanks and healers didn't make it go any faster past the first week (which was the week people were playing to see what the rewards would be).

That's completely untrue. To this day, my queue time as a warlock is about 6 minutes max. There was a time when it was 2 hours.

[Agenteusa]

That's completely untrue. To this day, my queue time as a warlock is about 6 minutes max. There was a time when it was 2 hours.

 

I haven't played for a while, but if you tell me it's 6 mins now, it would surprise me xD

[Viperswhip]

If you get a rename does it remove you from ignore or does ignore deal with your entire account?

 

I can totally understand someone not being a great dps when they start and it would suck to be added to an ignore list during a learning phase.

 

I have a commando and I was away from the game for a long time, had kind of lackluster gear but answered a call for a healer (having told them all of the above), and yep, I didn't know the fights, I got the group wiped once, or maybe twice, I can't recall, but we completed the op, and lo and behold I was added to ignore by two players there. So, by the time I got back up to speed and a bit geared up, I can't heal for those folks anymore. Whatever, I don't give a crap.

 

I haven't queued with my commando at all because I'd rather entire a group with clearly defined information prior to starting the op. Frankly the experiences during my re learning phase left me a little ambivalent with regards to using my commando for ops at all so now I just run GSI missions with him.

 

I don't have a fear of failure, I've been playing MMOs for a long time, but I don't particularly like dealing with people who can't seem to tolerate people knowing less than them or making any mistakes.

 

So, standard advice, join a guild that runs ops.

[ImpactHound]

I haven't played for a while, but if you tell me it's 6 mins now, it would surprise me xD

 

I can back this up, I actually happen to play a warlock too.

 

If you get a rename does it remove you from ignore or does ignore deal with your entire account?

 

That's a really good question. Also makes me wonder if it tracks your account with transfers on and off servers.

Edited December 3, 2013 by ImpactHound

[tomhjen]

Last i played WoW a couple of months ago queue time for a DPS prime time is 6-9min, in fact i don't think i have waited as long as 9, but my friends tells me thats about the time it takes now days. If there is a shortage of tanks and healers, the bonus system for them kicks in, and wolla! queue time is down by a lot. What you get is a loot box that can contain all sort of things.

 

I am kind a shocked to see the little acceptance that not everyone in this game are good players and some take longer to figure things out. I'd gladly spend time wiping because of a bad healer or a bad DPS to give them time to learn because there was a time where i was not a good player and did struggle a bit learning all the new things. And i bet all of you "pro" people was at some point just one of those people who did not know it all that someone else would ignore because you did a couple of mistakes.

[DarthTHC]

Last i played WoW a couple of months ago queue time for a DPS prime time is 6-9min, in fact i don't think i have waited as long as 9, but my friends tells me thats about the time it takes now days. If there is a shortage of tanks and healers, the bonus system for them kicks in, and wolla! queue time is down by a lot. What you get is a loot box that can contain all sort of things.

 

I am kind a shocked to see the little acceptance that not everyone in this game are good players and some take longer to figure things out. I'd gladly spend time wiping because of a bad healer or a bad DPS to give them time to learn because there was a time where i was not a good player and did struggle a bit learning all the new things. And i bet all of you "pro" people was at some point just one of those people who did not know it all that someone else would ignore because you did a couple of mistakes.

 

The problem is not with DPS or healers (or tanks!) who don't know the fights but are willing to learn.

 

The problem is with (primarily) bad DPS who just don't care, won't listen, won't change even after being advised to do so, and generally torque things up for everyone.

[Mazikeen]

Last i played WoW a couple of months ago queue time for a DPS prime time is 6-9min, in fact i don't think i have waited as long as 9, but my friends tells me thats about the time it takes now days. If there is a shortage of tanks and healers, the bonus system for them kicks in, and wolla! queue time is down by a lot. What you get is a loot box that can contain all sort of things.

 

While SWTOR is by no means hardmode, WoW is so easy to faceroll through that I'd be willing to bet that many of those tanks aren't actually tanks but overgeared DPS queuing as a tank. I know for a fact that when I played (pre-Pandaria) that this was the case.

 

I am kind a shocked to see the little acceptance that not everyone in this game are good players and some take longer to figure things out. I'd gladly spend time wiping because of a bad healer or a bad DPS to give them time to learn because there was a time where i was not a good player and did struggle a bit learning all the new things. And i bet all of you "pro" people was at some point just one of those people who did not know it all that someone else would ignore because you did a couple of mistakes.

 

Most decent tanks have no issue with people making legitimate mistakes. What we have issues with are people repeatedly screwing up, not listening, pulling without being asked to, pulling threat constantly and whining when we let them die, etc etc.

 

And as a side comment, I personally learned to tank in Everquest and yes, I got yelled at constantly until I learned the mechanics. On top of that, researching boss fights was MANDATORY before a raid because trying to explain tactics to a new tank in a 70-man raid without voice chat was 3 steps from impossible.

 

There's a difference between new and stupid. New people wait for direction, ask questions and try not to cause wipes. Stupid people think they're king of the world, don't care about their groupmates and make demands on people they need to get through the FP/Op.

[ImpactHound]

While SWTOR is by no means hardmode, WoW is so easy to faceroll through that I'd be willing to bet that many of those tanks aren't actually tanks but overgeared DPS queuing as a tank. I know for a fact that when I played (pre-Pandaria) that this was the case.

 

It goes up and down depending on the expac lifecycle. Right now, the 5 mans are pretty out-of-date but you still can't queue as a tank with a warlock or hunter officially. Sometimes you'll see a demonology in heroic raid gear steamroll thru for the valor, and if it doesnt wipe the group, nobody complains. Challenge modes & achievements are still tweaked tightly though.

[Shikyo]

The problem is not with DPS or healers (or tanks!) who don't know the fights but are willing to learn.

 

The problem is with (primarily) bad DPS who just don't care, won't listen, won't change even after being advised to do so, and generally torque things up for everyone.

 

As someone who plays all 3 tank types and 2 of the healer types.... This about sums it up in a nutshell. I could seriously write a essay strictly about misconceptions players have within their roles and all the mistakes that are made, but that isn't the real problem.

 

Player attitudes are the real problem in a PUG enviornment. People have this instilled pride and ego that they are awesome or they know how to play when in fact they do not. So when someone tries to apply a correction to them they get all butt hurt and internety (to explain my made up word: Internet tough guys, trolls, douches, etc etc) and then start bashing you and blaming you for their mistake. Shoe on the other foot, some people that try and apply corrections do it all internety too. They come off as condescending jerks or use some sort of poor word choice to offend the person learning or do the good ole, "L2P noob" and leave.

 

The gaming community on the whole has been and is devolving. We went from these attitude problems being isolated and limited to now good attitudes are isolated and limited.

 

I play this game for fun and dealing with bad attitudes is not fun. Dealing with people that join a group enviornment to then not be a part of that group and do all they can to help the group is not fun. For these reasons, I tend to stay out of HM FP group finder and only do it to help Guildies out or do full guild runs and for the fun of the story and visuals.

 

Bioware cannot control player attitudes. Look in the mirror because then you'll see the only one that can control that.

 

Bioware could try to make it more worth while to do these Group Finders but it would have to be pretty steep to make me even want get a headache and to be honest, I'd just wait and do them with my guild to get the rewards. That way it will be fun.

 

My advice to those having trouble getting groups:

Find yourself a guild of like minded and individuals that share similar goals in the game and go into that guild with a good attitude. Every POP you do get, go in with a good attitude. Be maluable.

 

Pet Peave: As a Raid Leader and one that tends to help new players out with mechanics to all of you that also lead and tend to teach players new stuff - TEACH THEM THE CORRECT WAY FIRST AND FOREMOST! So many times I get players that have learned a exploited way of doing a encounter, never once learning the actual way of dealing with the mechanics and this does nothing but prevent them from ever learning their role in a group and how to deal with the mechanics associated with that role. When the encounter gets fixed, which eventually they all do, you are stuck with a player that has been playing and gearing for a while that still has no idea how to do their job. This will hurt their chances of doing progressive content.

 

Sorry.... I didn't mean for this to be this long and yet it is. The subject got me on a rant lol. Either way, I hope everyone has a better time in group finder in the future and cheers! Check your TUDES!

[Hassat-Hunter]

Can I ask you guys what server you are on?

Since I see so many replies about this, or general flaming, and on my server (Red Eclipse) it's... quite different. Ask a question on the fleet? No one flames, you get half a dozen answers right away.

Just wondering if it's all tied to perhaps US-severs, or PvP-servers...?