Hardmode queue time!

[gorstram]

Could you clarify what you mean? Are you saying that DF/DP are unique among the ops for their stats (aside from the level)? Or are you just reiterating what I said about ops being the best method of getting gear for tanks?

 

You nailed it on the head, I'm just reiterating and giving those readers who were wondering specifically which ops they need to hit to get upgrades.

[Mallorik]

Offering additional rewards isn't going to prompt me to queue for more flashpoints once I reach my character goals. In fact I'll be switching in my dps alts which will increase the queue times.

 

I still think a solution to the flashpoint queue time issues lay with Companions.

 

Exactly, so give tanks and heals more character goals that they can achieve in flashpoints.

[MajikMyst]

Exactly, so give tanks and heals more character goals that they can achieve in flashpoints.

 

And you don't think DPS won't moan and complain that they don't have the same goals and special treatment??

 

Which is probably why no such effort has been made before.. It is really kind of hard to do something for one segment of community and not the rest..

[Mallorik]

And you don't think DPS won't moan and complain that they don't have the same goals and special treatment??

 

Which is probably why no such effort has been made before.. It is really kind of hard to do something for one segment of community and not the rest..

 

They are moaning and groaning now. They can choose, nobody has special goals or treatment and they have painfully long que times. Or tanks and heals have special goals or treatment and the dps have short que times and if they really want them they can play a tank or heals.

 

They difference is right now their moaning and groaning is justified, que times are too long.

[Andryah]

Exactly, so give tanks and heals more character goals that they can achieve in flashpoints.

 

Fixes nothing. Most tanks and healers will simply pursue those goals with friends and/or guildmates. People they know and trust. Why roll with unknowns in a game if you don't have to?

 

People simply are not getting it here. Tanks and healers are more likely to be playing with established groups, either friends or guild mates. They simply do not need the hassle of PUGing with who knows what kind of random self-entitled self-important DPS players with no friends, no guild, and an attitude of "serve me NAO!" who want pocket healers and tanks on demand for their crunchy PUGness.

 

And no.. I am not saying all DPS are bad boys/girls. Far from it. But let's be honest.. most of the good ones ALSO play in established groups of friends/guildmates. Playing an encounter should be about having fun and playing with people you know.. not rolling the random dice for the opportunity to have broken glass rubbed up and down your keester by people you don't know and who don't give a rat's blow hole about you.

 

TL;DR MMOs are full of social misfits. Those that are not social misfits generally cannot be motivated by mechanics or "virtual candy" to roll in random PUGs with the misfits.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Andryah

[MajikMyst]

They are moaning and groaning now. They can choose, nobody has special goals or treatment and they have painfully long que times. Or tanks and heals have special goals or treatment and the dps have short que times and if they really want them they can play a tank or heals.

 

They difference is right now their moaning and groaning is justified, que times are too long.

 

Well see that is where you are wrong.. Their moaning and groaning isn't justified.. This entire issue is player created.. It is hardly logical to get mad at the hammer when you hit yourself with it.

 

Also you are missing the point.. The point is to stop the moaning and groaning.. Not give people a different reason.. The only way that is going to happen is if people are forced to roll more tanks and healers.. Which if course will never happen.. WOW has the exact same issues for the exact same reasons.. a ton more people than this game has.. There really is not solution to this issue..

 

I hate pugging because of the retarded DPS that I run in to.. You would think it would be common sense to let the tank do the pulling.. I love it when some moron DPS pulls, then gets killed, and then complains at me because I didn't have agro?? You think?? If they are going to make my life harder, then I can do the same and let them die.. Then go find a group with less morons..

 

That is also a problem.. There are a ton of DPS that don't know how to play as DPS.. Again one that isn't even addressed in the idea being floated around.. I have a tank, 2 healers, and I hate pugging because of issues like the one above.. So I avoid the GF as much as I can.. I would prefer to run with my guild..

[grinchus]

So I have to play to teach players not to have fun... someone forget that teacher is paid job.

There was mentoring systems in some games, maybe teaching is fun for someones, but to force it on all tanks and healers?

And please not mess education with manners, we could (and actually) explain strategy ... but is it ever sane expectation to teach each 2nd or 9th player what exactly basics of it's own class are, what exactly group play is, what is CC, what is kill order, why have to get this basic mob from healer & so on?

Because I have seen so much players (in all roles) that think they are good and miss core knowledge about their classes (tanks that try to chase every mob in pack and loose important ones or go for big one and forgot about others at all or miss where and how to use CDs, healers that don't know rotation and pool management and go out of resource on each battle or never try to act on known damage spikes or not using cleanses, but most of all - DPS not even know why they have interrupt skill and even not bind it)

So you hate to read so much than expect me to read it, to think about it and to give it to you in easy way?

And this on top that you expect me to perform much better (means I have learned my class, my stats, my role & so on) - so I already had to do my "homework" - same you not want to?

Guild members - may try to give framework and point to place to read about class and role, will explain strategy if have lead in group/OPs or explaining ones miss something important.

PUG?

Not going to happen...

 

Yeah, I am not talking about extensive teaching. No one has time for that, and certainly it would be a waste of time if someone won't listen. Not saying that at all. Basically I am just saying be polite, offer some suggestions and strategy. Most of the time (not all of course) people will listen. I think it is better to have 30 seconds prior to starting the FP for a quick agreement on everyone's role and how drops will be handled, than to get half way into the FP and start having arguments and problems...which in the end wastes a lot of time and gets everyone angry.

 

It's just a game

Edited December 4, 2013 by grinchus

[Drox]

As a main Tank myself, I can personally say it's a lot more fun and easier to group up with guildies/friends than put my faith in pug's nowadays. lol

[loudent]

I've been tanking/healing my way through the game since I rejoined a month or so ago. I've run dozens of instances (up through Maelstrom prison, my main I still only lvl37).

 

I've never had a major problem as a tank (other than some enthusiastic players that like force push/wave/whatever my carefully clustered mobs). Sure sometimes they jump ahead but that's usually fine if they have the level/gear for it.

 

I always let people know the first time I'm tanking a FP and I've received mostly positive responses if I pause before a boss and ask about strategies.

 

As a healer though, We've had to vote-kick a tank once (was truly awful and non-communicative) and I dropped out of groups twice when I knew it was going to be a cluster.

[Ryokusen]

I rarely run flashpoints on my tanks past the weekly because theres 0 reason to do it.

 

I would propose giving the most expensive comms piece (140 comms) a good unlettered enhancement / mod, so that tanks have the incentive to run the flashpoints, while tanks running hard mode operations still have the advantage of the set bonus and gearing like 10 times faster.

[Mazikeen]

This discussion should be over by now, not 16 pages long.

 

Tanks queue as infrequently as they do because, once geared, they have no real reason to group with unpleasant DPS in randoms. I'll say this again: the tanks are out they, they just don't like you.

 

On top of that, gearing is incredibly easy once you have 1-2 raiders and Legacy gear. You don't even have to run HM FPs anymore, just save your extra comms, tear the mods out of gear you buy, put it in legacy armor and mail to your new 55. You can have a fully-geared 55 raider within half an hour of leveling (including weapons, relics and implants/earpieces).

 

Once the community realizes that the issue is not something Bioware can fix maybe it'll clean itself up and the tanks will run randoms again.

[Lord_of_Mu]

Exactly, so give tanks and heals more character goals that they can achieve in flashpoints.

 

Unless you give me the ability to move any item shells (Not mods/armorings/enhancements) across my account or give me a legacy elite comm pool with an increased cap and higher weekly return. I'm still going to cycle through dps alts.

 

 

No current companion (66s or 69s geared at least) can survive a HM FP - tried them all out of curiosity.

DPS ones survive longer ... so any try in this way may be equal for even longer queue times as DPS.

HK 51 (crafted purple 66s in it's own custom gear) with DAO stile tactics will make more damage and will survive longer than average DPS player I have met in PUGs

So I get my tank, my wife her healer, gear 2 HKs ... and here we go - grind of FPs weekly, for items, money and RE schematics.

No ninjas, no jerks, no under geared players, no CC break, 2 silver mobs insta kills ... just need to have a tactic - stay at range, kill from weak to strong, get out of stupid circle/cone/fire

Try to write a similar one for tanking companion for FPs bosses

 

Be careful what you wish

 

You are correct that tanking companions and companions in general would need a few background upgrades such as a small talent tree to give them higher defensive stats, companion specific sets / relics would also go nicely.

 

I am hoping to give a 72 geared companion a go, though that would be very overgeared for the content I would be running.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Lord_of_Mu

[Mallorik]

I really don't think bad dps are that much of a problem, personally I don't even pay attention to the dps in my Fp group, they don't really have any effect on me or what I do.

[CommanderKeeva]

I would just like to put it out there that tanks can be just as abusive as the DPS. Being a jerk or bad is not limited to any role. There are bad tanks, bad healers and bad DPS out there. In fact, in my experience, tanks tend to be more abusive because they have the power and they know it.

 

Yesterday, I was in a PuG Flashpoint with a Guardian tank who kept needing on Aim gear. When our Commando, who really needed that, asked why he was doing it, the tank admitted that he had taken those pieces for his companion Sgt. Rusk. We asked him to be more considerate and give them to the poor Commando, but he said he had just as much right to need on it as anyone. Furthermore, the tank threatened the DPS to leave the group and condemn us to another hour of wait in the group finder, if they pressed the issue. Because they didn't want that, they just let this blatant act of ninjaism slide and let the tank get away with it.

 

As you can see, tanks can often be abusive because they can get away with whatever they want due to the fact that they get groups instantly.

Edited December 5, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

[Kiaxn]

I can totally understand as a tank.

 

What DPS need to realize is a tank is high priority. Myself, If the DPS are brain dead (you would be surprised how stupid ppl can be) but yeh, if the DPS is brain dead i drop because I know I can get in another FP with a mouse click.

 

So yeh. Smart DPS ... I love you .. ****** DPS, get some practice in.

 

Oh and my friend runs tank more then I do and he had some dps hit enrage timer and HM athiss second boss, I didnt even know there was an enrage timer on HM bosses.

 

Enough said

[slafko]

Yesterday, I was in a PuG Flashpoint with a Guardian tank who kept needing on Aim gear.

 

You guys should have vote-kicked him ASAP and add him to /ignore lists. Do you have his name? Let me know if you're on TRE server.

[morfius]

Yeah, I am not talking about extensive teaching. No one has time for that, and certainly it would be a waste of time if someone won't listen. Not saying that at all. Basically I am just saying be polite, offer some suggestions and strategy. Most of the time (not all of course) people will listen. I think it is better to have 30 seconds prior to starting the FP for a quick agreement on everyone's role and how drops will be handled, than to get half way into the FP and start having arguments and problems...which in the end wastes a lot of time and gets everyone angry.

 

It's just a game

 

Polite - very good at any social activity.

Strategy - good to explain if someone not done it or doing it wrong (there was players that have beaten some FPs with wrong one and was thinking their was correct way).

Supposing that other group members are not knowing their class/role/gear before start of end game FP - not good... if we go with it - best way for me is not to PUG with tank or healer at all.

No matter how long queues will become...

[Infernixx]

I'll suggest again that there be additional rewards for those Healers and Tanks that queue up when there's a shortage.

 

Perhaps a goodie bag with Stims, credits, maybe the chance at a rare-drop mount or pet.

[morfius]

Unless you give me the ability to move any item shells (Not mods/armorings/enhancements) across my account or give me a legacy elite comm pool with an increased cap and higher weekly return. I'm still going to cycle through dps alts.

 

You are correct that tanking companions and companions in general would need a few background upgrades such as a small talent tree to give them higher defensive stats, companion specific sets / relics would also go nicely.

 

I am hoping to give a 72 geared companion a go, though that would be very overgeared for the content I would be running.

 

Ear and Implants for DPS & Healer - not worth it before 72 ... crafted 53 level Makeb reputation recipes ones are at least on par with Arcanium gear. Main hand / some offhand - I find it better to use crafting / money than PUGing with morons.

Tanks ... screwed again - drop and comm implants before OPs token or some rare Black Market OPs ones are with high end/accuracy/absorption

No big difference on DPS companion between purple 66 and 69... so I suppose there will not be between 69 & 72.

Even with 78s your tank companion will die or lose agro on almost every if not every HM FP boss. DPS one would survive those that not place circles or use positional/kill if not avoided attacks - but as I remember every last one have such one that kill companion in first 10-20 seconds of fight. Healing one - 5 seconds more life than DPS one because of self healing but still not worth mentioning.

 

Until they make them with better AI and DAO style tactics ... no use for HM FPs.

If they make them - much more worst life for DPS players because for group with tank and healer it will be better with DPS companions than above 50% of PUGs

[morfius]

I'll suggest again that there be additional rewards for those Healers and Tanks that queue up when there's a shortage.

 

Perhaps a goodie bag with Stims, credits, maybe the chance at a rare-drop mount or pet.

 

Many tanks run Biochem - no much use of stims ...

Credits ... has to be wort it, may lure some novice players, but exp ones that have legacy, crafts and so on... they had to be so much but it will skyrocket prices on GTN more and more.

Vanity items, only if they are BoL or what - there is 1 Desler mount chance on last bosses ... but it is no lure for me because already have it on my main.

 

Do you want to see a Vigilant Guardian queue as tank to get reward or Gunnery Commando as healer?

No...

 

Have to do this very carefully.

[Infernixx]

Many tanks run Biochem - no much use of stims ...

Credits ... has to be wort it, may lure some novice players, but exp ones that have legacy, crafts and so on... they had to be so much but it will skyrocket prices on GTN more and more.

Vanity items, only if they are BoL or what - there is 1 Desler mount chance on last bosses ... but it is no lure for me because already have it on my main.

 

Do you want to see a Vigilant Guardian queue as tank to get reward or Gunnery Commando as healer?

No...

 

Have to do this very carefully.

 

Agreed on all aspects, including BoL pets/mounts in order to be appealing. And to be honest, I've already seen DPS players queuing up and trying to get by without tank/healing gear or specs. It never ends well and they get kicked and ignored. In a cross-server system, that would be a pointless effort, but being server-only queues, it means a lot if you get Ignored by players.

[morfius]

I would just like to put it out there that tanks can be just as abusive as the DPS. Being a jerk or bad is not limited to any role. There are bad tanks, bad healers and bad DPS out there. In fact, in my experience, tanks tend to be more abusive because they have the power and they know it.

 

Yesterday, I was in a PuG Flashpoint with a Guardian tank who kept needing on Aim gear. When our Commando, who really needed that, asked why he was doing it, the tank admitted that he had taken those pieces for his companion Sgt. Rusk. We asked him to be more considerate and give them to the poor Commando, but he said he had just as much right to need on it as anyone. Furthermore, the tank threatened the DPS to leave the group and condemn us to another hour of wait in the group finder, if they pressed the issue. Because they didn't want that, they just let this blatant act of ninjaism slide and let the tank get away with it.

 

As you can see, tanks can often be abusive because they can get away with whatever they want due to the fact that they get groups instantly.

 

There is morons everywhere ... tanks/healers are not excluded.

But you are done a large mistake with this one - tell him to leave and see how it is going to screw himself - GF penalty is not for fun.

If not leave - just not continue after him... keep him not playing as he threatened to keep you not playing.

No vote kick - it will leave him without penalty.

So just tell him - give item to X or we will stay here instead of queue or you are getting ignore and GF penalty for leaving.

And I would prefer not to do a FP at all than to boost a moron ego and grown his delusion that he may do whatever he want.

Edited December 5, 2013 by morfius

[morfius]

Agreed on all aspects, including BoL pets/mounts in order to be appealing. And to be honest, I've already seen DPS players queuing up and trying to get by without tank/healing gear or specs. It never ends well and they get kicked and ignored. In a cross-server system, that would be a pointless effort, but being server-only queues, it means a lot if you get Ignored by players.

 

DPS in wrong role is already here... rewards for roles will push this up even with ignores.

So there has to be some kind of filter but how exactly ... still cannot get any idea.

[DarthTHC]

I'll suggest again that there be additional rewards for those Healers and Tanks that queue up when there's a shortage.

 

Perhaps a goodie bag with Stims, credits, maybe the chance at a rare-drop mount or pet.

 

You know what would be an awesome reward for tanks and healers that queue up when there's a shortage? Skilled DD's. That would be the best thing ever.

[Infernixx]

You know what would be an awesome reward for tanks and healers that queue up when there's a shortage? Skilled DD's. That would be the best thing ever.

 

Oh, they're out there, but again...Not as common as we'd all like.